FerociousBeast Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 In 6th edition, most Deathwing armies built to be competitive had to maximize the number of standard Deathwing units due to troop requirements. New Deathwing players would often be advised to skip investing points in the Deathwing Command Squad and Deathwing Knights in order to maximize the points spent on troops. At most, you could pick either a DWCS or DWK unit, not both. And Dreadnoughts, like the number Five, were right out. Result? Fairly cookie-cutter lists. Belial, librarian, Land Raider variants, and Deathwing Squads making up the bulk of all competitive lists. Sometimes throw in a PFG techmarine on bike to babysit the Land Raiders. Now, in 7th, you don't need troops to score. Assuming you're not contested by an enemy troop unit, a DWCS is just as good as a DWS for holding backfield objectives. Knights can annihilate a unit and then claim its objective. Dreadnoughts could be relatively cheap alternatives for holding objectives. You'll still want your Troop units to capture contested objectives, but I believe that 7th edition has given Deathwing armies more breathing room to explore some of the lesser-used options in 6th edition. For example, take a DWK unit, DWCS unit, and two DWS units, let the DWCS unit hang back and hold easy objectives while its banner boosts the DWS and DWK marching into the thick of the fighting. Meanwhile, a couple Dreadnoughts advance up the side of the table, claiming objectives and harrying the enemy's flanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 This could be true.... some good points. What banner are we talking about though? Fortitude? Here's something a touch different from what you're saying though... just food for thought. Originally in my heavy pointed Azrael lists I had him dropping deep in enemy territory with Tacticals thinking that's what it took to steal objectives. However, as time went on I came to realize that if you can make the squad survivable enough, it doesn't have to be super scoring. So for instance when I drop Az-bomb on an objective, and I have Feel No Pain because of my proximity to the objective, I notice my opponent is forced to dedicate a lot, including troops to the cause. I guess what I'm saying is I could see taking a DWCS, Fortitude, and going deep with a unit or two of Termies. Probably a mix of the DWCS for the banner and a shooty DWTS. If both squads end up with Fortitude, it can really screw up your opponent's plans to spread out and take your objectives..... this is how I hold homefield with semi-survivable, but not offensive units. I think this idea could translate well to Deathwing, but I'd definitely have to test it. But yea, in theory I like the idea of expanding the DW vanilla lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayJ Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I was looking at something very similar. I feel we are back to late 4th Edition, Early 5th Edition levels of scoring unit flexibility. I really like the Deathwing Command Squad right now for its ability to anchor an area and score some points. The only thing that has be frustrated with the Deathwing Knights is their complete inability to shoot. They basically have several turns before they start contributing, but once they get there they do a good job.I'm still mixed on Dreadnoughts, but mostly because shaken results really neuter them. Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer in a pod is classic and effective though. Complements Deathwing assault wonderfully, and having lots of threats there can make those Dreads stick around more. I think the book as a whole, not just Deathwing has opened up a ton though. Maelstrom of War and our many synergies makes just about every unit viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Fortitude, definitely, but I was also thinking about the DW Company Banner. And of course if you've got a DWCS, the Champion is a great addition, an upgrade everyone likes but no one brings because of the old Troops restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I was looking at something very similar. I feel we are back to late 4th Edition, Early 5th Edition levels of scoring unit flexibility. I really like the Deathwing Command Squad right now for its ability to anchor an area and score some points. The only thing that has be frustrated with the Deathwing Knights is their complete inability to shoot. They basically have several turns before they start contributing, but once they get there they do a good job. I'm still mixed on Dreadnoughts, but mostly because shaken results really neuter them. Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer in a pod is classic and effective though. Complements Deathwing assault wonderfully, and having lots of threats there can make those Dreads stick around more. When I first came to trying Deathwing, the Knights were what drew me in the most. But playing them, and the non-shooting, non-super scoring... I REALLY have trouble fitting them in now. A blended unit of hammer/shield + Heavy Weap + Storm Bolter/Fists just seems like a much better alternative when you consider it's also super scoring. Dreadnoughts I'm right with you on. Love the concept, the model, the feel of it... but I've found if you're playing a list light on vehicles? My dreads barely get the door open on the pod before they're being recycled into marine underwear. I think the book as a whole, not just Deathwing has opened up a ton though. Maelstrom of War and our many synergies makes just about every unit viable. Absolutely. I'm surprised how few people see this yet. Even Chaos benefits a lot from Malestrom and 7th. 100% agree. And of course if you've got a DWCS, the Champion is a great addition, an upgrade everyone likes but no one brings because of the old Troops restriction. That's another plus for DWCS. I'd love to do that model up and now it might make sense to actually make it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Put together a quick 1850 list. To go up to 2000, there are a number of options... add a librarian, drop a dread and put in two Land Raiders, add some Ravenwing support, etc. ++HQ++ 190 - Belial 315 - Deathwing Command Squad w/ apothecary, champion, Deathwing company banner, plasma cannon, 2x lightning claws ++Elites++ 235 - Deathwing Knights (x5) 195 - Dreadnought w/ 2x TL autocannon, venerable, drop pod, deathwind launcher 185 - Dreadnought w/ multimelta, PF/HF, venerable, drop pod, deathwind launcher ++Troops++ 250 - Deathwing Terminator Squad - assault cannon, 1x chainfist, 1x TH/SS 245 - Deathwing Terminator Squad - assault cannon, 1x chainfist 235 - Deathwing Terminator Squad - heavy flamer, 2x lightning claws, 1x TH/SS I just put that together really quick. Looking at it, it could use some heavier ranged firepower than just the one dread, but I got too excited about the DW company banner's +1A :) The dreads could also trim 150 points of fat off if I dropped the venerable and drop pods (though I put the venerable on them for thematic reasons), getting within 100 points of adding a Land Raider to the list. But what I like is that you don't have to automatically include four troop units like was so often recommended before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Yes. DWCS will be making a comeback in my lists. DW banner and a Champion but I may still be using mine agressively with LCs or Hammernators. Superscoring isnt as vital if I clean off the opponent and am backed up by a DWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I really like this. It's worth trying. I think I would do Fortitude banner and try to keep things tight and very survivable.... without mixing wings, that's the way I'd try it. 3 super scoring units at 1850 (Terminators no less) has some real possibilites. Not sure about the dreads, but I seem to fail at dread skills... I'd almost replace the Dreads with Greenwing deep in the mid field laying down the fire you need. (Those Deathwind Pod Launchers are gold for that too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Fortitude, definitely, but I was also thinking about the DW Company Banner. And of course if you've got a DWCS, the Champion is a great addition, an upgrade everyone likes but no one brings because of the old Troops restriction. What about the dakka banner? As I read the 7th FAQ storm bolters are now affected, meaning Deathwing can finally lay out some decent firepower, especially with Vengeful Strike. Not sure if this approach has been discussed already since I've been away from the boards. Also, are people really keen on the Champion? I'd almost always prefer the points to be spent on a TH/SS, but then again my main opponent is Orks and the Champion doesn't really stand up to PK nobz/warbosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 WS5, S6, I4, AP2, ability to take challenges... Pretty good for 5 pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 WS5, S6, I4, AP2, ability to take challenges... Pretty good for 5 pts.Agree Here... The DW Champion is a Beast... You can upgrade His atracks to 3 by DW banner and His WS to 6 including Ezekiel... And if Ezekiel gets divination you can have a HtH Monster that has 4A WS6 S6 AP2 on charge and he rerolls them Too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 This idea is sounding better and better. Too bad I'm in the midst of painting up my Azrael list, I've always wanted to do a proper DW command squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I am building My DWCS now... Champion, Banner with TH/SS, SB/CF, HPG/PF, Apothecary... All with FW shoulder pads and mounted on scibor's Resin bases (Ruins Pattern)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Sounds good out of curiosity what is the best loadout for the standard bearer? Or us he stuck just holding the banner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Depends on the rest of the squad. Mine has LCs because that is the squad I ran at the end of 5th. 5x LCs with a Chaplain. Banner +1A Chaplain re-rolls hits and LCs re-roll wounds. Now I might add in a hammernator or two. Edit: With old squad, keeping the banner but the rest of a new squad will be plastic. Fluff reasons say that you dont get to be banner bearer by letting the banner encumber you. These individuals are just that skilled that they can fight normally and still manage the banner. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/Deathwing/decius110.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 So there is no weapon restriction on the banner bearer? Out of curiosity do you think twin claws is the best load out for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raztalin Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 So there is no weapon restriction on the banner bearer? Out of curiosity do you think twin claws is the best load out for him? One could argue that TH/SS would be better to protect him from being sniped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 So there is no weapon restriction on the banner bearer? Out of curiosity do you think twin claws is the best load out for him? One could argue that TH/SS would be better to protect him from being sniped... Depends on your mission for your command squad but if you are including a Champion it makes sense to have a HtH squad for clearing objectives, and as Raztalin says the TH/SS is more survivable. I just built mine as LCs at the time for my mission and Chaplain combo and now I don wanna change to the "new" back mounted banner and Hammernator doesnt let me hold my banner pole. My choice.. You do what you want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raztalin Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 You could even put it on your heavy, in an all eggs in one basket scenario, just as brother dean says, you equip the dude for the role on the battlefield, he just so happens to have a banner on his back too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 What about the dakka banner? As I read the 7th FAQ storm bolters are now affected, meaning Deathwing can finally lay out some decent firepower, especially with Vengeful Strike. Not sure if this approach has been discussed already since I've been away from the boards. Where and how does it say this? This would /massively/ influence the makeup of my DA armies if it were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 It's not true. It's based on the removal of a FAQ that explained that the banner effects only bolt guns and their derivatives. But it was a FAQ, not an errata, i.e. amendment, so the clarification as to designer's intent still stands even if it's not in the current FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 [devils advocate] But FB does that still apply? Then why did they need to remove it? Leaving it in was far easier than taking it out therefore they must of had a reason to take it out? Barbossa: First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner . That specific clause is no longer part of the rules so therefore we do not have to follow it [/devils advocate] That said I wont play them like that and I usually dont play the BoD at all (My DWCommand squad is tooled for HtH with LCs and the Deathwing Banner) but a Belial squad Deepstriking with the BoD and Relentless should make any bolter nut wet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Regarding the issue dakka banner - if the restricted weapons are NOT listed on the current FAQ (as they were on the previous version) then no, of course they don't apply. We can't argue designers' intent because who would win? We can only play with the rules as they currently stand. ~ I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yes but the argument that storm bolters should be included in the banner's effect is already predicated on the slimmest of justifications: that 1) "boltgun" is, instead of the name of the weapon described, a class of weapons that 2) includes storm bolters. If either 1 or 2 are not true, storm bolters cannot utilize the banner. We have a statement of intent from GW that, in accord with expectations, storm bolters are not boltguns. That statement of intent was lost in the website redesign, but we importantly do not have an overruling statement of intent to the contrary. GW's last word on the matter is that, as everyone expects, storm bolters and boltguns are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Well I'm at a disadvantage here as I don't have the 7th ed rule book. So can't say for sure whether we are talking 'a class of weapon' or 'specific weapons'. But it's quite simple. If it isn't clarified in the rulebook, nor in the FAQ, then storm bolters count. A new player for instance - has no concept of past FAQs nor designer intent and can only play with rules as written. As indeed we all must. ~ I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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