Deathwing units in 7th. More options?

[Brother dean]

I cannot copy paste what it shows but the rulebook lists in the appendex the boltgun category with the exact same verbage and weapons as the 6th ed book. 

[Cactus]

On page 76 there is a category of weapons called 'Boltguns', one of which is the boltgun. I tend to observe the rule of thumb that if a rule is unclear one should follow the interpretation that gives least advantage. Not that I really care; if I'm forking out for a command squad and banner I'm taking the Sacred Standard of Fortitude.

[FerociousBeast]

"Boltgun" is listed in the wargear list of a tactical squad. If someone equipped their tactical marines w/ storm bolters, they would rightly be laughed out of the shop.

 

In addition, all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons.

 

The banner's rules do not seem unclear to me. The only question in my mind is not whether storm bolters count as boltguns but whether combi-bolters and hurricane bolters do. But we have a FAQ ruling on that--even if not currently present in the latest FAQ--so I'm satisified on that count.

[Prot]

I actually thought as of right now that the CombBolter and Hurricane bolter do count for the Standard of Dev? Is that correct?

 

As a side note I'm wanting to put together a Talon for this reason (always wanted to do one, but this would make it better).

 

Back to the deathwing, I'm on the fence about the banner to use. The Fortitude banner is my first choice because I've seen what FnP can do for my Az-Zeke bomb list. 3-4 FnP's from that squad really make me think what this would do for Termies.

 

Also having the extra attack would be amazing in some cases, however I feel the smaller the list becomes, the more resiliency becomes paramount.... just weighing these things.

[Saphrael]

I actually thought as of right now that the CombBolter and Hurricane bolter do count for the Standard of Dev? Is that correct?

 

Correct, the old FAQ made this clear. The confusion/discussion now is that as the new FAQ no longer has this clear distinction, and since a storm bolter is listed as a 'boltgun' in the BRB there is scope to argue that it is affected. The same discussions happend when the 6th ed codex first came out, until the FAQ cleared it up, so it is interesting that they removed it.

 

Personally my interpretation when I play is that it's just bolters (incl. Hurricane and combi) and I think FB's argument is well made, but I also think the other side can make a compelling argument for why Storm Bolters should now be considered.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Cn we not turn the thread into a SoD Bolter/Storm/bolter/heavy bolter discussion? Let's err on the side of caution that the SoD only works in bolter and hurricane bolters and leave it at that.

[Hoots]

Im in the camp that BoD works on regular bolters, hurricane bolters, combi-bolters (when fierd as regular bolters) and other twin-linked bolters such as on bikes. I'd love to be able to say that it had an effect on storm bolters as I always felt these were somewhat lack luster especially if you dont happen to vengeful strike or if your facing a horde.

However the way the salvo rule is written I agree it could be deemed to count to any boltgun variant you wish, although as someone mentioned before on a different thread the ruling says the banner makes all "dark angels units within 6" treat there boltguns as salvo" which I see as you not having the option of salvo or not within 6". Based on this would you deem it within the rules if someone stayed still then took 4 shots with a bolt pistol? or as a dark angel how would you feel if you took a warhound titan with mega-bolter and instead of 30 shots you opponent points out that you should only be taking 4 cause its a vairiant of the boltgun? Its badly written but I think the emphesis is clear that its supposed to only affect regular boltguns as previously mentioned.

 

However back to the topic i'm still dissappointed about the lack of foresight that deathwing sergents seem to have when it comes to collecting their kit before a mission. I'd love them to be able to take TH/SS. It feels lame to be prevented from doing this especially when the rest of the squad can tool up for heavy duty MC/titan/super heavy crushing. Stuck with this load out means I tend to put him in the fornt so he takes the wounds and dies leaving my better equiped dudes alive. I know if hes tooled up with TH/SS he's a bit of a boss at taking on challenges compared to other lowly infantry characters like tactical marine sgts but thats what I want to see him do and thats what I feel I'm paying 43 points to hopefully see. Im fed up knowing that that terminator armoured lone wolf lumbering acorss the field is going to challenge him and tie up the whole squad for at least two rounds of combat before enevitably kiling him and some of his chums. But it seems they like to be bitch slapped and just love those storm bolters too much. I feel that if they just made a sgts TH/SS option ten points instead of five that might make you think about how many TH/SS you could afford in one squad but would keep the optoin open to you if you wished. In my mind the sergent epitomises his squads role, wheather that be tank hunters, horde cleansing or character slaying and I think it would be great to see him able to represent this with his wargear. To me a deathwing sgt should be able to take any terminator weapon option in any combination you want, as long as your paying the points. His current load out seesm so lame and unfluffy.

 

Being able to take a DWCS that can score is fantastic I love these guys but can usually only afford to take them in apocalypse games as they aint cheap when tooled up and in a transport. In smaller games I think ill try and stick to using the DWTS as with them you get dedicated super scoring DWV land raiders which are increadible. If you take your more expensive DWKS or DWCS they get DWV but are not super scoring. Maybe you start the knights outside another squads vehicle at deployment, then move inside turn one where belial is. They can then ride acorss the board with belial using his homer to bring in the support meaning you get the super scoring vehicle and the DWK get to assault out of it and they should be able to survive most things that can hit them before they get inside??

 

The changes to vehicles rules will see my contemptor taking to the field again but probably as a mortis pattern who can stay back, support, deal with flyers and cover an objective.

I like that my speeders which usually die to small arms fire shouldn't be blowing up as much next to my guys thanks to the new rules for explosions needing 7s and now that they can scoot off and score I'll be trying to keep them alive all the more.

 

So thats some of my thinking, I don't own the new rules yet so if I've missed anything or got it wrong please let me know 

  

Hoots

[Cactus]

7th ed changed challenges slightly. If a lone wolf challenges your sergeant and there are no other enemies engaged with your unit, all of your guys can attavk the lone wolf.

[RayJ]

 

However back to the topic i'm still dissappointed about the lack of foresight that deathwing sergents seem to have when it comes to collecting their kit before a mission. I'd love them to be able to take TH/SS. 

 

In the current (7th Edition) FAQ, the second bullet point allows any model in the squad to swap for TH/SS or a pair of Lightning Claws. Deathwing sergeants rejoice.

[FerociousBeast]

No, it's the same wording as before. "Any model can replace his storm bolter and power fist..."

 

Rules as written, without a power fist, you can't upgrade. Keep in mind what the amendment changes: originally it was "any model can replace his weapons". Specifically changing it as in the FAQ seems to purposefully limit the upgrade.

[RayJ]

Bleh. As I remember, the 6th Edition FAQ also called out DWT in specific, and not just 'any model' but I could be mistaken, and that's probably why I missed the 'power fist' requirement. I hate needless limitations and making old squads illegal :(

[FerociousBeast]

The only glimmer of hope lies in the possibility that they amended the wording because they thought there could be confusion that "all weapons" might be misinterpreted as "all wargear" in which case they'd lose TDA as well. The only reason I'm willing to consider this possibility is because they still left the "any model" language in, whereas usually they specifically refer to which kinds of models in a unit can be upgraded when they intend to leave the sergeant out.

[[TA]Typher]

My biggest issue with the DW sgt loadout is that you are paying for a PF but only getting a PS. What happened to that 10 points?

 

If a DWT cost 44pts with powerfists, then 4 PF terms and 1 PS term should be 210pts. Sadly this is not the case. It's not as bad as the DW apothocary loadout/math but it's still bad.