Son of Carnelian Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Hey gang. Sorry if this question comes across as especially ignorant, but I've just started really delving into the background of the Heresy and something strikes me as odd. The Imperial Truth says no gods or supernatural deities, but the Mechanicum clearly have machine-spirits and worship a mythical dragon/machine god. How do loyal citizens reconcile this clear break in Imperial doctrine? More importantly, how does the Emperor justify it? I suspect he just tolerates it out of sheer necessity, but I would love to know what theories you all have. And remember to tag your spoilers for Lunawolves' sake! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The Emps sorta agreed as the Machine-Cult simply deified him, it meant they follow their own path (with ranging levels of autonomy) whilst helping out him... As for how the generic citizen sees it, in all honesty I doubt they do and even if they did I highly doubt they would understand - bare in mind this is the open-minded 'ish 30k era, not the close-minded ego-centric "deify everything" era of the 40k Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The Emperor "is" the machine god. Ninja'd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ravel Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 It's mostly because of practical necessity. The Imperium needs the Mechanicum, and their faith is very secretive (no formal missionary as far as I know). That means the Emperor can ''look elsewhere'' as far as this problem goes. He much prefer having them as allies. Hypocrisy ? Probably. It would not be the first time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Opened minded in 30k Had a good laugh!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The Emps and the AdMech have more of a "truce" so to speak as he needs them in a symbiotic relationship. So he kinda leaves them alone in exchange for a few things Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Opened minded in 30k Had a good laugh!!!! I did say 'ish and certainly compared to 40k Imperium it is haha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I believe its been stated quite a few times in 40k / Heresy that their have always been two empires, the Terran "Imperium of Man" and the Martian "Mechanicum". These two empires are allies in a symbiotic relationship for mutual gain to conquer and rule the galaxy. You also have to remember that even in the Heresy alot of knowledge has been lost since the Age of Strife that only the mechanicum poses, so it would stand to reason that the Emperor would turn a blind eye to some of their ministrations in exchange for technology to conquer the galaxy. Even Inquisitors in 40k have very limited powers when dealing with the Mechanicum (see Dark Heresy: The Lathe World) In these instances the Mechanicum have their own internal Inquisitor like agents called "Agents of the Lords Dragon" this further proves that the Mechanicum is an entity unto itself despite having a representative in The High Lords Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 The Machine Cult isn't any more divergent from the Imperial Truth than the Promethean Creed of the Salamanders, the Path of Heaven followed by the White Scars, the shamanistic ways of the Space Wolves, or the mysticism of the Thousand Sons. Basically, if you're a powerful force like an Astartes Legion or the adepts of Mars, you have to REALLY go out of your way with flaunting how not on board with the Emperor's "secular rationalism" you are before something gets done. (Right, Lorgar?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Opened minded in 30k Had a good laugh!!!! Yes, if your loyalty to the Emperor is in question they open your mind for you. Hammer, spike, drill, etc (see, the Mechanicum working in concert)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 One also has to bear in mind that the imperial truth only contradicts blind faith and doctrine, none of which quite apply to the fundamental laws of the machine cult as it exists before the loss of knowledge that happened with the rebellion on mars. The basis of the cult mechanicus is formed by a set of laws (think natural laws): the mysteries (more like definitions of the philosophic principles that constitute knowledge, the being that holds it and the way to obtain it) and warnings (experience of forbidden paths that lead to self-destruction and loss of knowledge). The Omnissiah at first is but a hypothesis of absolute comprehension that acts a creator and garrant of understandability. The Emperor then, by demonstrating his psychic machine empathy on mars, uses this tenant to present himself as this hypothesis made manifest, thus providing evident proof and assuming leadership of the mechanicum's assets. When Mars is overrun by Chaos and it's temples razed, the Mechanicum looses most of it's knowledge and the cult becomes a desperate reconstrution when true understanding degenerates into animism and magic, mindlessly repeating once purposeful practices of scientific pursuit as rites and rituals. Only for those that do not understand the nature of the cult mechanicus (or those that seek to overstep its boundaries) does it seem like dogma and religion, when it really is the exact opposite: knowledge, not belief. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 The imperial Aquila added the second head after the unity of mars and terra see "mechanicum" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW1 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 The imperial Aquila added the second head after the unity of mars and terra see "mechanicum" And now looks like that tzeenchian greater daemon with the 2 heads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Spoilers ahead! Do not read beyond this point. Seriously. Sondermann (sp)has a great speech in Horus Rising about how the Imperial Truth is based on reason and opposed to Religion. It is not opposed to faith in general. The Mechanicum is a cult, a secret society devoted to technology and knowledge. So the core elements are not fundamentaly opposed. The deity / machine god thingy is the most perplexing thingy. "Mechanicim" hints that the Emperor basically engineered the whole pmnissiah thing waaaay back to encourage the development of the Cult Mechanicum. So he can use them in Great Crusade by being the Avatar of The Machine God. Being the Chosen One tends to make it easier to disuadr dissident voices, especially if you created the prophecy yourself. Which is funny when you consider that The Emperor tolerates deification by the Mechanicum and slaps Lorgar in the face for it (I would guess, he expected his son to know better than those martian hillbillies) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 No, the Imperial Truth is opposed to any and all kinds of faith. As Lorgar finds out in The First Heretic. I'm not talking about Monarchia, from the Emperor's Custodians constantly spitting "Faith is a fiction!" at the XVII to Magnus's "Faith is an ugly word" on Colchis, it seems pretty cut and dried that the Emperor's reason driven vision of the cosmos has no room for that particular virtue. Now, the difference between the Word Bearers and the Mechanicum is, the Martian deification of the Emperor drove them to build his war machines and lend their armies to his Great Crusade. Lorgar's worship slowed his conquests to a crawl as the Seventeenth seeded countless Emperor cults on their conquered worlds and raised great temples to their god. Which is why his belief was broken with orbital bombardment and Mars is left mostly alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3734993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I reckon the big E let's the admech do as they please simply because he understands the importance of the machine 'god' as as way of stopping the admech from falling apart. granted in 30k they seem like a bunch of closed minded nutters who would hail the toaster/blender of our time as sacred machine that no one had dared tamper with, but this also allows the big E to keep a grip on the admech, as he know they would be bound to strict parameters which they have enforced themselves. So by letting the admech continue as they do with their traditions and their 'worship' the Emperor can just sit back and relax as he knows anyone not aligned with Zeths ideals or the legio tempus are just basically morons but still morons who know how to build, all hail HOW TO BUILD WAR MACHINES FOR DUMMIES! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3735032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battybattybats Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 He tried to destroy belief in general to rob Chaos of it's power, yet by keeping the Omnissian faith gping and him recognised as the Omnissiah he'd keep his own warp-power going fine, held pure of corruption because of the lack of Emotion. For it is Emotion that fills the warp and Belief which enables it to interfere with the material realm.. or so the Emperor seemed to be concluding.The Mechanicum faith while religious (especially now) is unemotional, at least as a broad generalisation. And once the Emperor had the galaxy in his grasp solidly enough we cannot be sure he wouldn't turn on the Mechanicum too or to shape it yet even further. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3735084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Even if we are in danger of moving away from the topic... To clarify : The Imperial truth allows humans to have faith in themselves, in reason, in humanity and the Emperor. It is opposed to all kinds of Faith (capital F) as in the worship and belief in the form of the superstitious, religious kind. At least that's what it says on the box. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3735237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I've just started really delving into the background of the Heresy and something strikes me as odd. The Imperial Truth says no gods or supernatural deities, but the Mechanicum clearly have machine-spirits and worship a mythical dragon/machine god. Like so many things, it made a lot more sense in the original lore. In the lore of earlier editions of 40k the Imperial Cult was part of the Great Crusade era. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3735836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 In 30k, I believe that technically the Mechanicum has not been fully integrated into the Imperium. They are a completely separate human empire with colonies(Forgeworlds and knight worlds) who owe fealty to mars, not Terra. In the 30k setting, it's a union of two separate and largely autonomous empires who mutually support each other for their own perceived benefits. Like others have said, it would have taken too many resources to fully subjugate the Martian Empire and so the Emperor proposed an alliance and allowed the Mechanicum a large degree of autonomy (as befits a separate but allied Empire). That is actually part of the reason for the split in the Mechanicum siding with Horus, they viewed their alliance as too heavily favoring Terra and not being more equal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3736128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Well it remains that way in 40K. The primary difference is that the Imperial Truth in its most basic, secular, anti-religion biased, state of reasoning is against all things relating to the words "belief", "faith" and "religion". It actually a relatively modern concept since Buddhism is considered a religion by most secularists(and faith practitioners) een though its most basic teachings are actually an atheistic philosophy, not a religion worshipping a man. The reason things like the Promethean Creed and Way to Heaven exist is because of "cultural misunderstandings" where they are interpreted by the mainstream Imperium as "philosophies" since the respective cultures are that divergent from the mainstream Imperium. This is the Cult Mechanicus' relation. It is misinterpreted by the Imperium at large as just a quirky way of saying they're thinkers. And that's where Lorgar got sunk while everyone else got to float: he defined his belief in a way the Imperium could understand. Problem was, the true comprehension went against everything the Imperium at large stands for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293223-imperial-truth-vs-the-machine-god-of-mars/#findComment-3737547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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