Opinions on Ben Counter and James Swallow

[Son of Carnelian]

I guess I'll be the contrarian: I quite enjoy Mr. Swallow's efforts, especially in regards to the Blood Angels. I couldn't really tell you what I liked about his writing in particular since it's been so long since I read something of his, but I came away satisfied with the Blood Angels books and Fear to Tread. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Just weighing in on the Grey Kngiht novels by Ben Counter.

 

The frist was great.  Nice read and I'd recommend it.

 

The second, not so good.  Explored the fusion of Daemonic Possession and Machinery though.

 

The last.

 

Ug.

 

Terrible.  Not a Grey Knight novel.  This was more of a Conan Arena Deathmatch in Space.  No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.  And you know, instead of choosing to stay pure like his brothers and die, choosing to fight for Khorne, in Khornes areas of blood and death, while being possessed.  Well that's totally ok and not serving Chaos.

 

And the super secret spy...

 

>_<

 

That book.

[Valkyrion]

Just weighing in on the Grey Kngiht novels by Ben Counter.

 

The frist was great.  Nice read and I'd recommend it.

 

The second, not so good.  Explored the fusion of Daemonic Possession and Machinery though.

 

The last.

 

Ug.

 

Terrible.  Not a Grey Knight novel.  This was more of a Conan Arena Deathmatch in Space.  No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.  And you know, instead of choosing to stay pure like his brothers and die, choosing to fight for Khorne, in Khornes areas of blood and death, while being possessed.  Well that's totally ok and not serving Chaos.

 

And the super secret spy...

 

>_<

 

That book.

 

Is it the third book where he befriends a Striking Scorpion?

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye.

[A D-B]

swallow has ruined the blood angels for me. I dread to read anything with his name on it. Looking forward to seeing ADB tackle the BA (im sure he has a BA character in one of the upcoming books?)

+1 from me. I rarely leave a book unfinished, once started, but I just couldn't force myself to endure the drivel.

Sadly, whenever 'Angels turn up in an AD-B story he makes a point of punking them. Something pro-BA would be very welcome from the current King of 40K.

Hey. Hey. HEY.

For that one "We got our bums kicked" mention in the Dante dataslate, there's a Death Company dataslate mention where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.

And in Soul Hunter:

- The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee.

- A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them. Until then, despite jumping out in an ambush, they're still pinned down and getting nowhere.

- The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.

...so shush, you. "Not winning" isn't the same as getting punked.

[Terrahawk]

I must say I'm on the same page with A D-B here. I never got that feeling from Soul Hunter nor the Data Slates. I think they give a fair and a balanced view of the Chapter, that doesn't lack awesome not one bit. In fact, I think they are some the best background written about the BAs in years. Loved the way Dante was chosen to lead the Chapter, I think it definitely resonates with the feel and spirit of the Angels. I prefer having some real depth and capturing the essence of a Chapter, as opposed to "my dudes" curb-stomping the opposition. And let's be honest, whenever the Loyalists and the Traitors meet the casualties should always be high on both sides.

Without derailing the thread too much, A D-B do you currently have any plans for future BA stuff? Because you know, we'd love to have some more.

[Valkyrion]

*dearly hopes one of the Abaddon books is about him slaughtering the Blood Angels at Mackan*

[Volt]

swallow has ruined the blood angels for me. I dread to read anything with his name on it. Looking forward to seeing ADB tackle the BA (im sure he has a BA character in one of the upcoming books?)

+1 from me. I rarely leave a book unfinished, once started, but I just couldn't force myself to endure the drivel.

Sadly, whenever 'Angels turn up in an AD-B story he makes a point of punking them. Something pro-BA would be very welcome from the current King of 40K.

Hey. Hey. HEY.

For that one "We got our bums kicked" mention in the Dante dataslate, there's a Death Company dataslate mention where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.

And in Soul Hunter:

- The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee.

- A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them. Until then, despite jumping out in an ambush, they're still pinned down and getting nowhere.

- The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.

...so shush, you. "Not winning" isn't the same as getting punked.

lol. I sometimes wonder if people forget that you and other BL writers post here. Although you do have to admit you kinda thrashed the Blood Angels in the NL short story prequel to the Talos Trilogy. I forget what it was called, but I remember that a Blood Angel brought a plasma cannon to a space hulk.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

 

 

 lol. I sometimes wonder if people forget that you and other BL writers post here. 

 

The North remembers... Wait!?

[A D-B]

*dearly hopes one of the Abaddon books is about him slaughtering the Blood Angels at Mackan*

It will be, eventually. That's where Abaddon got the scar; the surviving Chaplain and his Death Company go into hiding behind enemy lines, and jump Abaddon's inner circle to wail on them mightily.

swallow has ruined the blood angels for me. I dread to read anything with his name on it. Looking forward to seeing ADB tackle the BA (im sure he has a BA character in one of the upcoming books?)

+1 from me. I rarely leave a book unfinished, once started, but I just couldn't force myself to endure the drivel.

Sadly, whenever 'Angels turn up in an AD-B story he makes a point of punking them. Something pro-BA would be very welcome from the current King of 40K.

Hey. Hey. HEY.

For that one "We got our bums kicked" mention in the Dante dataslate, there's a Death Company dataslate mention where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.

And in Soul Hunter:

- The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee.

- A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them. Until then, despite jumping out in an ambush, they're still pinned down and getting nowhere.

- The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.

...so shush, you. "Not winning" isn't the same as getting punked.

lol. I sometimes wonder if people forget that you and other BL writers post here. Although you do have to admit you kinda thrashed the Blood Angels in the NL short story prequel to the Talos Trilogy. I forget what it was called, but I remember that a Blood Angel brought a plasma cannon to a space hulk.

In fairness, I'd do that in Zone Mortalis myself. Genius that I am.

[Volt]

*dearly hopes one of the Abaddon books is about him slaughtering the Blood Angels at Mackan*

It will be, eventually. That's where Abaddon got the scar; the surviving Chaplain and his Death Company go into hiding behind enemy lines, and jump Abaddon's inner circle to wail on them mightily.

swallow has ruined the blood angels for me. I dread to read anything with his name on it. Looking forward to seeing ADB tackle the BA (im sure he has a BA character in one of the upcoming books?)

+1 from me. I rarely leave a book unfinished, once started, but I just couldn't force myself to endure the drivel.

Sadly, whenever 'Angels turn up in an AD-B story he makes a point of punking them. Something pro-BA would be very welcome from the current King of 40K.

Hey. Hey. HEY.

For that one "We got our bums kicked" mention in the Dante dataslate, there's a Death Company dataslate mention where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.

And in Soul Hunter:

- The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee.

- A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them. Until then, despite jumping out in an ambush, they're still pinned down and getting nowhere.

- The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.

...so shush, you. "Not winning" isn't the same as getting punked.

lol. I sometimes wonder if people forget that you and other BL writers post here. Although you do have to admit you kinda thrashed the Blood Angels in the NL short story prequel to the Talos Trilogy. I forget what it was called, but I remember that a Blood Angel brought a plasma cannon to a space hulk.

In fairness, I'd do that in Zone Mortalis myself. Genius that I am.

Could be worse. Vortex grenade on an Eldar ship while in the Eye of Terror = bad times.

[Wade Garrett]

Having a plasma cannon on a Space Hulk purge makes perfect sense to me.

 

"Battle brothers, the access corridor is blocked by debris! We must navigate around..."

 

*Fwoosh!*

 

"Brother-sergeant, I am pleased to report the corrior is no longer blocked!"

[Volt]

Having a plasma cannon on a Space Hulk purge makes perfect sense to me.

 

"Battle brothers, the access corridor is blocked by debris! We must navigate around..."

 

*Fwoosh!*

 

"Brother-sergeant, I am pleased to report the corrior is no longer blocked!"

Only it could just as easily go-

 

"Battles Brothers, the access corridor is blocked by derbris! We must navigate around..."

 

"Fwooosh"

 

"AIIIIIIEEEEEE"

 

"Brother, you just spaced half the squad and killed our Brother Sergeant from explosive dcompression!"

[Captain Juan Juarez]

 

Having a plasma cannon on a Space Hulk purge makes perfect sense to me.

 

"Battle brothers, the access corridor is blocked by debris! We must navigate around..."

 

*Fwoosh!*

 

"Brother-sergeant, I am pleased to report the corrior is no longer blocked!"

Only it could just as easily go-

 

"Battles Brothers, the access corridor is blocked by derbris! We must navigate around..."

 

"Fwooosh"

 

"AIIIIIIEEEEEE"

 

"Brother, you just spaced half the squad and killed our Brother Sergeant from explosive dcompression!"

 

 

"Promotions all round, Brothers!"

[Karthak]

 

*dearly hopes one of the Abaddon books is about him slaughtering the Blood Angels at Mackan*

 

It will be, eventually. That's where Abaddon got the scar; the surviving Chaplain and his Death Company go into hiding behind enemy lines, and jump Abaddon's inner circle to wail on them mightily.

Man, I am so looking forward to that. The Ezekarion standing there, patting themselves on the back for stomping the Blood Angels, when out of nowhere...Death Company!!

 

...Now why have I never wondered about this before: Those suffering from the Black Rage relive the death of Sanguinius. Sanguinius was killed by the Talon of Horus. Abaddon wields said Talon. If I recall correctly, ordinary Blood Angels get Hatred when fighting Abaddon. What happens when Black Rage victims lay eyes on him and the Talon? Black Rage squared?

[Volt]

 

 

*dearly hopes one of the Abaddon books is about him slaughtering the Blood Angels at Mackan*

 

It will be, eventually. That's where Abaddon got the scar; the surviving Chaplain and his Death Company go into hiding behind enemy lines, and jump Abaddon's inner circle to wail on them mightily.

Man, I am so looking forward to that. The Ezekarion standing there, patting themselves on the back for stomping the Blood Angels, when out of nowhere...Death Company!!

 

...Now why have I never wondered about this before: Those suffering from the Black Rage relive the death of Sanguinius. Sanguinius was killed by the Talon of Horus. Abaddon wields said Talon. If I recall correctly, ordinary Blood Angels get Hatred when fighting Abaddon. What happens when Black Rage victims lay eyes on him and the Talon? Black Rage squared?

 

They clearly spourt wings and produce relic blades from absolute no-where.

[b1soul]

 

For that one "We got our bums kicked" mention in the Dante dataslate, there's a Death Company dataslate mention where I had a Blood Angel Chaplain being practically the only Imperial warrior to give Abaddon a scar in 7,000 years.

 

And in Soul Hunter:

 

- The main characters have to run away from the Blood Angels fleet, and are so desperate to do so that they betray their own allies so they can flee. 

 

- A more experienced and better-equipped Chaos Marine squad manages to kill half a standard Tactical Squad (while still taking a fatal casualty) while on their own home ground. And even then, only after one of the Night Lords Legion's main heroes shows up to save them. Until then, despite jumping out in an ambush, they're still pinned down and getting nowhere.

 

- The other Blood Angels on the ship, hugely outnumbered, still manage to rampage through the vessel and kill hundreds of crew, as well as several Chaos Marines.

 

I would say the BA in ADB's NL series don't do any worse than Imperial antagonists in other pro-Chaos novels. 

 

I remember there's a mention in the next book Bloodreaver that the BA boarders manage to kill something along the lines of "30 Night Lords and several hundred of the crew". However, the reader just doesn't get to witness the BA on NL kills in graphic detail

 

I'd like to draw a parallel to a battle in Betrayer. If you read carefully, the Imperator Titan Corinthian destroys a large number of Traitor Warhounds before it goes down. However, none of Corinthian's kills are described graphically. It's kills are mentioned but not described at length. This leads to a lot of readers who miss the one-sentence mention and assume the Corinthian goes down without doing damage, which isn't the case.

[Leif Bearclaw]

*dearly hopes one of the Abaddon books is about him slaughtering the Blood Angels at Mackan*

It will be, eventually. That's where Abaddon got the scar; the surviving Chaplain and his Death Company go into hiding behind enemy lines, and jump Abaddon's inner circle to wail on them mightily.

Somewhat tangental question here, but it's something that's been bugging me. I seen it stated a couple of times that the BAs were gutted/almost annihilated on Mackan. Yet the BL codex specifically states that the BL faced a single company of BAs, which did indeed get somewhat stomped. Is there contradictory fluff somewhere else that increases the size of the BA deployment, or is this another case case of fans running with an idea, despite a lack of corroborating fluff?

Because losing a single company, while unpleasant, isn't really that unusual or disastrous. Hell, the Imperial Fists could find a way to get a company massacred on the weekend paper run.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Hell, the Imperial Fists could find a way to get a company massacred on the weekend paper run.

Ah Leif.. And to think I respected you!

[Leif Bearclaw]

Hell, the Imperial Fists could find a way to get a company massacred on the weekend paper run.

Ah Leif.. And to think I respected you!

Hey, I don't like it, and if it was up to me the Fists wouldn't have had their Chapter Master bushwhacked and their Fortress Monastery hijacked in their own supplement, let alone having half their chapter wiped out across various fluff sources within the last century or so (Hydra Cordatus, 3 Companies in Codex Necrons, the Ultramarine movie). But that's the approach GW seem to want to take, if loyalists need massacring, the writers seem to have the VII on speed dial.

[Sedekiel]

First of all I think we all can agree that mr Swallow is a talented individual no question about that.

 

I liked Flight of the Eisenstein, although some times it felt like I was reading horus rising but with Death Guard...dont know if that happened to anyone else...

 

But as far as his Blood Angels work, especially fear to tread, I seriously dont know. I feel like he is just trying too much. Too many things are happening just for them to happen without a cause. I almost get the feel that this is because of his entusiasm about the chapter.

 

I think that a more esoteric writer would fit the blood angels better (perhaps one like A-D-B ), exactly how Abnett's explenative detailed descriptions fit the Ultramarines character, while Mr Swallow's heroic writing would fit perfectly on a more Militaristic/monastic chapter like Imperial fists or Dark Angels.

 

Just my 2 cents here, hopefully without hurting anyones feelings, love each and every one of them for their great work.

 

edit for spelling...

[sitnam]

See I haven't read Abnetts portrayal of the UM's yet (Know no Fear is probably next on read list though), yet I myself didn't really enjoy his characterization of the Space Wolves. Prospero Burns was a great book, yet the longer it went the more I rooted for the 'Vlka Fenryka' to lose.  It probably didn't help that I read A Thousand Sons in parallel. Some of that may of been that I already had my own ideas about the Space Wolves, whereas in Horus Rising the Luna Wolves are very different to the later Black Legion.

[Conn Eremon]

That would be because the Black Legion is not the Luna Wolves, and are almost as divorced from each other as the XVIth is to any other Legion.

[mc warhammer]

First of all I think we all can agree that mr Swallow is a talented individual no question about that.

 

I'd question it.

 

At the risk of sounding like an old record, I'm going to put my Black Library experience in context. Firstly, I'm not a "genre" reader, so I don't have a strong tie to sci-fi or fantasy (though I did lap up anything with elves and magic mcguffins when I was a kid) and I'm also not big on franchise-fiction in novels. I tend to (rightly or wrongly) go with the stereotype that the majority of those books are filled with sub-par writing that caters to fan-base idiosyncrasies. That's fine- a lot of my favourite movies are poorly executed but I love them because they tickle my funny bone in just the right way. Each to their own blah blah.

 

I first got interested in the 40k universe back in highschool, a gamer used to bring a book to rollcall class and I went from peering over his shoulder at the pictures to just taking it off him. I found myself really immersed in the mythology (I don't think all the primarchs even had names back then). It made enough of an impact on me that 10 years or so later I saw Horus Rising in a bookstore and bought it on a whim. I expected it to be pretty much the standard franchise-fiction fare- and was thrilled to find it wasn't just a passable book, it was really really well written.  The standard of writing didn't need the background/universe to give it a reason to exist- it stood on its own. I hadn't planned on reading any more of the series, but I was now hooked.

 

Then came False Gods. It was a let down, feeling like a completely different story with different characters who happened to share the same name. On the positive side, there were some nifty bits to it and I was still riding the wave of the first novel. So I stuck with it.

 

Galaxy In Flames was a further drop. Empty writing. Missed opportunity. Shallow. I didn’t even know who the guy pretending to be Loken in this was supposed to be. Its only saving grace was the subject matter (which is what I’d always feared from franchise work).

 

At this point the writers didn't matter to me, I didn’t recognise any of the names. Flight of Eisenstein followed and it was on par with GiF, though somehow more boring. Fulgrim was where the series lost me, and where I first made note of the author's name as one to avoid. I was un-hooked.

 

I didn't read any more books for a few years, but I would check in on forums like this one, because the imagery of the setting still grabbed my imagination. I was happy enough to just read spoilers to satisfy that curiosity, but as happens with places like this, you get a feel for which novels and authors are considered quality by the majority. Battle of the Abyss was not one of those, and surprise surprise, when I looked at the author’s name, it was the guy who ruined the opening trilogy for me. Cross his name off the readable list. Dan Abnett's name was spoken with a reasonable amount of respect and he checked out as the author of Horus Rising, the one novel I actually liked. McNeill seemed to get mixed reactions but Thousand Sons was almost unanimously loved. ADB was getting a lot of praise as an up and comer. So I bought a bunch of books in one go to sample; Prospero Burns, Legion and First Heretic were all great, Thousand Sons less so, but still fun. I’ve more or less learned my lesson with BL: don’t follow the stories or the characters, follow the authors.

 

My long winded point is that yes, yes “mileage” and “opinions” vary but quality is somewhat objective (in that there are certain established markers outside of personal taste with which to judge quality). Swallow and Counter and McNeill are poor authors, while ADB and Abnett are not. I don't personally like everything the latter two write, but I can always see that the work is head and shoulders above the rest on a technical level at least, despite my own tastes. I wouldn't criticise Swallow or Counter for ruining my favourite legion or not making bolters shoot the right way (what is the right way anyway?), it's more a lack of skill with plot, pacing, prose, themes and characterisation. McNeill is especially deficient in that last area. All three are painfully unsubtle.

 

For me, I can't see much difference in the writing of Counter and Swallow. Both are forgettable.

[dragon950]

I haven't read everything by every author, but my tastes run different from most people who post.  Most of the books from Ben Counter I like, the only ones I dislike was the last grey knight book.  Battle for the Abyss was interesting in the way that it reinforced that not all the marines in the traitor legions were traitors.  It was fun to read about the World Eaters loyalists killing the Word Bearers.  The only books from Swallow I've read are the HH books, all 3 I liked, the best was Nemesis.

 

I love McNeill's books, both fantasy and 30/40k, his books remind me of big blockbuster movies.  While they may not always be the most cohesive books, they do leave a lasting impression on me.  ADB would have to be my second favorite author, but only because I've read little of his work, soon he may be my favorite.  He reminds me of J.R.R Tolkien or George R.R. Martin, only alive and actually works on completing his books.  I hope that he someday gets away from BL to publish his own scfi/fantasy series.

 

Abnett is a good author, but not when he has to stay within what is written about marines.  He always tries to add extra lore/fluff, which I believe takes away from the stories.  He is best when he writes about normal humans, not super humans.  I disliked all of his books before Know no Fear and hated Prospero Burns, he added nothing to the HH while detracting my love for the wolves.

 

But everyone has their own likes and dislikes.  That is what makes the BL team so diverse.