Bog standard Tank Commander instead of Pask

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Tbh, re-rolling to hit with most primary weapons, as well as rerolling to pen with a lot of other stuff still makes him a great deal. I pay more and get less from Longstrike in that regard.

You and your filthy Xenos

Surely is just boils down to the relative points value of said re-rolls? I can't be bothered to look through he Codex, cause there's a cheesecake with my name on, but is the re-roll worth the price difference between the two?

Seahawk, I don't think anyone is genuinely suggesting that an army hinges on that re-roll.. Because that would be ridiculous - so much so that someone should try. Also, BOMBARDMENT!

[march10k]

 

I think to say that "[t]he normal commander is useless" (my emphasis) is a bit strong. He's not useless. With BS4 he makes a Vanquisher reasonably decent and for the same price as the old codex Vanquisher, plus he still gets orders to split fire with his wingman. I think that is more than decent for the points. I've willingly paid more for the DKoK Forward Command Tank which only gives you the BS4 and had no problem. Just because Pask is quite good doesn't mean that you MUST take him. I say, by all means, for an allied detachment take the regular commander.

 

Keep in mind that he is also good because if you were going to take a tank anyway you are no longer forced to pay a CCS "tax" to get it in an allied detachment. And it frees up your lone allied det heavy slot. I think that is all pretty reasonable for the price and far from useless.

 

Since FW is all legal, I think he is indeed useless since the Armoured Battlegroup one is plain better. Also, the order thing is good, but it's on a 4+. Meaning you have 50% chance that you will fire both at the same target, which was not your initial idea since you used the order. Not worth it. Also, having BS4 to be forced to take a squadron is for me a big NO. BS4 on a Demolisher (since its still the overall best) is almost worthless. I need to pay 30 + a squadron for this ? Useless. 

 

This useless is based on how I play and see it. You could very well convince me that how you play it, it's perfectly fine and good. But for me, he's 100% useless. 

 

Hogwash!  Tank orders are not "on a 4+," did you just make that up or something?  They go off on a 9 or lower on 2D6.  That's anything but a  10, 11, or 12.  That's not even in the same universe as 50/50.  

 

Since you mention Demolishers (I've never used any HQ tank but Pasquisher), that's not actually the worst idea in the world...a squadron of two demolishers (yeah, BS4 is meh) that eliminates the need to take a CCS (if you're playing vets or mech, orders become so-so), frees up an HS slot, and you get orders...hmmm...so you're often out of range on turn one anyway, might as well whip out the never-used "full throttle order and get 6+D6 extra inches of movement!  That's not available in a HS demolisher...Then, when you are in range, you get to decide whether you want to fire both demolishers at one target (like a superheavy), or two (like separate squads of infantry.  If you do decide to double-tap one target with both tanks, you can shoot and still pop smoke, which is not a bad deal at all when you're running tanks that by design run straight into melta range...All things considered, an HQ squadron of demolishers is not a waste of 30 points!

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

I think to say that "[t]he normal commander is useless" (my emphasis) is a bit strong. He's not useless. With BS4 he makes a Vanquisher reasonably decent and for the same price as the old codex Vanquisher, plus he still gets orders to split fire with his wingman. I think that is more than decent for the points. I've willingly paid more for the DKoK Forward Command Tank which only gives you the BS4 and had no problem. Just because Pask is quite good doesn't mean that you MUST take him. I say, by all means, for an allied detachment take the regular commander.

 

Keep in mind that he is also good because if you were going to take a tank anyway you are no longer forced to pay a CCS "tax" to get it in an allied detachment. And it frees up your lone allied det heavy slot. I think that is all pretty reasonable for the price and far from useless.

 

Since FW is all legal, I think he is indeed useless since the Armoured Battlegroup one is plain better. Also, the order thing is good, but it's on a 4+. Meaning you have 50% chance that you will fire both at the same target, which was not your initial idea since you used the order. Not worth it. Also, having BS4 to be forced to take a squadron is for me a big NO. BS4 on a Demolisher (since its still the overall best) is almost worthless. I need to pay 30 + a squadron for this ? Useless. 

 

This useless is based on how I play and see it. You could very well convince me that how you play it, it's perfectly fine and good. But for me, he's 100% useless. 

 

Hogwash!  Tank orders are not "on a 4+," did you just make that up or something?  They go off on a 9 or lower on 2D6.  That's anything but a  10, 11, or 12.  That's not even in the same universe as 50/50.  

 

...

 

He meant the Armoured Battlegroup orders.

[David Ravel]

 

 

I think to say that "[t]he normal commander is useless" (my emphasis) is a bit strong. He's not useless. With BS4 he makes a Vanquisher reasonably decent and for the same price as the old codex Vanquisher, plus he still gets orders to split fire with his wingman. I think that is more than decent for the points. I've willingly paid more for the DKoK Forward Command Tank which only gives you the BS4 and had no problem. Just because Pask is quite good doesn't mean that you MUST take him. I say, by all means, for an allied detachment take the regular commander.

 

Keep in mind that he is also good because if you were going to take a tank anyway you are no longer forced to pay a CCS "tax" to get it in an allied detachment. And it frees up your lone allied det heavy slot. I think that is all pretty reasonable for the price and far from useless.

 

Since FW is all legal, I think he is indeed useless since the Armoured Battlegroup one is plain better. Also, the order thing is good, but it's on a 4+. Meaning you have 50% chance that you will fire both at the same target, which was not your initial idea since you used the order. Not worth it. Also, having BS4 to be forced to take a squadron is for me a big NO. BS4 on a Demolisher (since its still the overall best) is almost worthless. I need to pay 30 + a squadron for this ? Useless. 

 

This useless is based on how I play and see it. You could very well convince me that how you play it, it's perfectly fine and good. But for me, he's 100% useless. 

 

Hogwash!  Tank orders are not "on a 4+," did you just make that up or something?  They go off on a 9 or lower on 2D6.  That's anything but a  10, 11, or 12.  That's not even in the same universe as 50/50.  

 

Since you mention Demolishers (I've never used any HQ tank but Pasquisher), that's not actually the worst idea in the world...a squadron of two demolishers (yeah, BS4 is meh) that eliminates the need to take a CCS (if you're playing vets or mech, orders become so-so), frees up an HS slot, and you get orders...hmmm...so you're often out of range on turn one anyway, might as well whip out the never-used "full throttle order and get 6+D6 extra inches of movement!  That's not available in a HS demolisher...Then, when you are in range, you get to decide whether you want to fire both demolishers at one target (like a superheavy), or two (like separate squads of infantry.  If you do decide to double-tap one target with both tanks, you can shoot and still pop smoke, which is not a bad deal at all when you're running tanks that by design run straight into melta range...All things considered, an HQ squadron of demolishers is not a waste of 30 points!

 

1- lol sorry, I guess I had the psychic phase in mind when I wrote that. You are totally correct. I was tired I guess ! Much better than 50/50

 

2- As far as I understand the new chart, the ''free up a heavy slot'' argument doesn't work anymore since you can spam detachment, etc. Maybe I'm wrong ? And I rarely fire my demolisher at the same target. Anyway as I said, you can use them fine, but they don't work in my gameplan. I don't like having squadron of tank, it sucks and they can all blow up in one turn from one source. Threat saturation. 

[march10k]

You can spam detachments, as long as you pay the CCS tax, and as long as you're not forced to also pay a tax of more troops choices than you really wanted.  

 

Your argument about a single source blowing an entire squadron of tanks up is hilarious.  The most likely culprit, I assume you'll agree, is meltaspam, such as a fire dragon squad?  Anything without the melta rule just isn't going to have enough shots to generate enough pens to get more than one kill.  So...melta, yeah, the problem there is that if you're in half range of the first tank, that doesn't automatically entitle you to 2D6 penetration on the entire squadron.  See, you resolve the hits, one at a time, against the nearest squadron member, until it's dead, then move on to the next nearest.  It's almost impossible to ensure that you're within 6" of multiple members, and if you're not, you're only getting 8+D6.  About the only way around that is dismounting from a transport in just the right spot, or scatter-free deepstrike.  In any case, it's more of a theoretical possibility with multiple counters than a real threat that should be allowed to dictate your army list.   For one thing, you should never allow a drop pod to land that close to even one tank, let alone in the perfect spot to nuke a whole squadron, and if you're running tank heavy, then the first thing you kill is whatever rattletrap is hauling those fire dragons around. That would be like designing your entire list around the slight chance that you'll face nine vendettas.  Some things you have to just deal with in-game, rather than in the army list design.

[David Ravel]

Hilarious ? Must depend on the meta really. I sometimes I fight against team of 4-5 wraith with Str 10 ap 1. It's really not farfetched that they can wreck more than one. Without even speaking of deepstrike behind the tank and doing couple of glancing with stuff like Assault Cannon etc. I'm not saying this out of my arse, it happened to me. Plus, I really don't like the ''all eggs in one basket'' rules of squadron, which is the main reason I don't like the Tank Commander. I still think the Armoured Battlegroup one is far superior. If you positivly, absolutly want to convince me, then okay, the normal commander is not bad since you can ditch the fragile CCS. 

[march10k]

Wait.....you let people deepstrike behind your tanks?  I suppose if they're demolishers, then that's a risk you have to take (and you mitigate it by running them 4" apart, hard to deepstrike in range of both, unless you're scatter-free), but otherwise, who leaves that kind of room between the rear armor and the board edge?

 

And what is this S10AP1 wraith you speak of?  I've never run into it, it never hurts to be prepared...

 

Wait...you think an assault cannon is going to glance more than one tank to death?  The nearest member of the squadron would have to be on its last hull point, you'd have to get four glances with four shots, and not allow any save.  Now you're really reaching!

 

It's not impossible for a single unit to kill more than one tank in a squadron in a single phase...but it's rare enough that it has no business being a list-building factor.  The only time it's happened to me since squadrons have been allowed (once!) is when some terminators got off a charge against a squadron of LRBTs in 6th edition.  Guess what?  It didn't matter that they were in a squadron, other than allowing them to keep their bonus attack, they would have been able to charge both tanks anyway...the bonus attack was overkill, it only contributed to ensuring that BOTH tanks blew up, double the wounds on the termies!

[David Ravel]

Wraith as in Wraithcannon. Eldar stuff. The AC on himself wont, that's true. But if you add up another want, and some stormbolter (like a termi team), or a twinlinked assault cannon (on a Dreadnought), etc. it's entirely doable. Again, I'm not speaking out of nowhere, I'm telling stuff that happened. Maybe very rare stuff, very meta-bound, but still not impossible. And since you mention close combat, that would add up more time that my tank were destroyed. 

 

Your argument about the rear is only good if you are turn one (with other tanks on your rear, and again you'll just get a cover save since he can still see it), or if you play Dawn of War deployment. When your tank needs to move for LOS, only have 24-36'' range (demolisher, punisher, plasmafun), or something screws up (blow the chimera protecting the rear, etc.), it's very easy to get a shot at the rear. What kind of game do you play if your ennemies NEVER gets your rear and that you NEVER get extra hull pts/pen because of squadron ? 

 

EDIT: I went and checked. It's str 10 ap 2 for the wraithcannon. Anyway, it's still good. 

[march10k]

Ah, yes, the wraithcannon...4-5 shots, insta-kills on a pen 6.  Not likely to kill off an entire squadron in a single phase.  Yet another example of "it happened to my cousin's physics teacher's butler's girfriend once," another example of something rare enough that it should not be allowed to influence list design.  

 

And a second assault cannon in the same unit?  Let me think...ten terminators?  That's the only version of that that I can think of.  Stormbolter fire?  Now you're really reaching!  And even a TLAC needs stupidly good rolling to get four hull points, even against rear armor. I think the "I don't like squadrons because I'm afraid of a single unit wiping one out with assault cannon fire in a single round" argument should be abandoned...just saying!

 

I'm completely puzzled by what you're saying about rear armor.  You don't obscure your rear armor with a vehicle, you put it against the board edge.   Nobody's going to be in your rear arc, so fuggeddaboudit.   The only exceptions to that are the demolisher, punisher, eradicator (you missed one), and executioner...of which I run just the demolisher.  The enemy does get rear shots on those demolishers.  Sometimes.  The good news is that when they do it with deepstrikers, it puts the deepstrikers in front of the rest of my army, they would have been smarter to drop inside my lines where they cause more trouble than just a couple shots at AV11 before they die (inside my lines, I'd have LOS problems and they could wreak more havoc).

 

What kind of game?  I play with 4-5 tanks.  Two of them are solo demolishers.  the other 2-3 are Pasquisher with a wingman or two of LRBT.  Those deploy against the board edge to hide their rear armor in a spot where they have commanding fields of fire (and hopefully some obscuration) with a squad of guardsmen screwing up any landing zone in front of them, and chimeras to the sides (if the enemy has deepstriking melta).  After any deepstrike threat has passed, they're free to do a small bit of movement if they need to shape LOS, and of course the chimeras peel off to cap objectives.  In this current codex, I've lost a wingman once, and pask not at all.  I didn't play IG in 6th (not scoring from inside chimeras, the key to my 5th edition list, ruined it for me), and in 5th, I lost an entire squadron of LRBT to a terminator assault.  I'm telling you, what you suggest happens so often that it should affect your list design is in fact vanishingly rare.  

 

As for meta, that's an odd thing to claim against me...being in the Army, I've moved (and thus changed metas) so often it'd make your head spin.  I've played regularly in Georgia, Kentucky, Virginia, Wisconsin, Colorado, California, and the Kansas City area.  Here, I face Nidzilla with gaunt swarms, taudar, eldar with two knights and wave serpent spam, nurgle daemons backed by fateweaver, Nurgle daemons featuring three DPs, two heralds, and a great unclean one (so 3 FMCs with 2+ jink and a couple biomancy powers each, and 17 warp charges to start the game), and jetseerstar.  Those are the "friendly" lists, although there are a few inexperienced youngsters with small model collections who just get roflstomped unless they play each other...worrying about the odd shooting attack that takes out more than one tank in a squadron is the least of my worries!

[CoffeeGrunt]

And a second assault cannon in the same unit?  Let me think...ten terminators?  That's the only version of that that I can think of. 

 

Obliterators. I've had three Glance a tank to death, (but only one.)

[Seahawk]

landspeeders too.

[march10k]

I find oblits more likely...I haven't seen a landspeeder on the table since about a month after 6th came out.  It's too bad, I loved my pair of tornadoes back in 4th/5th!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Squad of 6 could feasibly do a number on them. Not to mention Crisis Suits, which typically are outfitted to drop 6 Melta shots on arrival. Potential for lots of Explosions on good rolls for them.

[David Ravel]

Ah, yes, the wraithcannon..[...¸]

EDIT : My last post was useless, so I will edit it only with this : 

 

Believe what you will. OP asked something, we answered. End of the line. 

[minigun762]

Phrased another way, IF you had to use a standard Tank Commander, which tank would you use and what would you pair it up with in the squadron?

[march10k]

Squad of 6 could feasibly do a number on them. Not to mention Crisis Suits, which typically are outfitted to drop 6 Melta shots on arrival. Potential for lots of Explosions on good rolls for them.

 

Six what, oblits?  I guess they would wreak havoc (against anything, not just a tank squadron)...if they survived the shuffle across the board to get into assault cannon range.  As for crisis suits...are you saying it's legal to take three fusion blasters (obviously, two of them count as a single twinlinked one)?  I haven't played my tau under the new book, they've been on the shelf that long!  Interesting...I haven't seen anyone field that sort of team, but it sounds deadly, if you can get it on target.  It strains credulity to suggest that it would reliably deepstrike within 6" of more than one member of the squadron.  But...going back to being able to take multiples of the same weapon...can you take three un-twinlinked copies of the same weapon?  It would be expensive, but a crisis team with NINE missile pods would be...insane!  Hmmm...or two missile pods each, and velocity trackers...six S7 hits on a flier would be nice...

 

 

Ah, yes, the wraithcannon..[...¸]

EDIT : My last post was useless, so I will edit it only with this : 

 

Believe what you will. OP asked something, we answered. End of the line. 

 

 

I like the agree to disagree part, but you're completely re-imagining how things went down.  The OP asked whether Pask was worth the extra points, as compared to the generic tank commander, and you failed to answer that question, instead opining that all a commander gets you is BS4, at the expense of forcing you to take a squadron mate, which for you is the kiss of death.  When you were corrected on that (you get more than just BS4), things went sideways because you obviously don't like being contradicted.  And that is all there is to say.

 

Phrased another way, IF you had to use a standard Tank Commander, which tank would you use and what would you pair it up with in the squadron?

 

If he's not my warlord, a squadron of two demolishers.  Use the order to flat out on turn one (assuming no worthy target, which is usually the case), after that, split fire order unless I'm servicing a target that justifies two demolisher cannons, in which case, strike and shroud.

 

If he's my warlord, I want standoff, same as with pask, so probably a squadron of two LRBTs.  Decent all-rounder tank with plenty of range to tuck into a corner with good fields of fire.

[Seahawk]

Phrased another way, IF you had to use a standard Tank Commander, which tank would you use and what would you pair it up with in the squadron?

 

Standard TC: Vanquisher w/lascannon + 2 LRBT w/lascannons and heavy bolters. Good all-purpose unit that can shoot at anything with anything. Stand-offish.

 

Pask TC (only if Warlord): Vanquisher w/lascannon + multimeltas, 2 executioners with all the AP2 they can muster, because hot damn 10 plasma cannons get FEROCIOUS with Preferred Enemy. I mean, you really only need one, but when were the Imperial Guard ever subtle?

 

Also, bombardment.

[CoffeeGrunt]

 I guess they would wreak havoc (against anything, not just a tank squadron)...if they survived the shuffle across the board to get into assault cannon range

 

They can Deep Strike.

 

 

are you saying it's legal to take three fusion blasters (obviously, two of them count as a single twinlinked one)?

 

They may take two separate Fusion Blasters each, non-Twin-Linked. In a squad of 3, that means 6 18" Meltaguns. You can take 3, but only fire two, and you'll have no room left for Hardpoints for Support Systems. Velocity Trackers aren't really worth it on Crisis Suits due to the cost.

 

 

Phrased another way, IF you had to use a standard Tank Commander, which tank would you use and what would you pair it up with in the squadron?

 

Hmmm, I have yet ot use a standard TC. Given that I could still fairly reliably get the Old Grudges Warlord Trait, I'd probably take him in an Executioner, with another buddy Executioner. However, if I failed to get Old Grudges, the unit could be in a bit of trouble on some bad rolls. I normally run Pask with Sponson Plasma Cannons, Punisher and Lascannon, with a buddy Executioner with Sponson Plasma and Lascannon. Makes Pask a great all-rounder while his buddy can split fire and nail Marines as needed. Debating swapping the Plasma Cannons for Multi-Meltas on Pask to give a bit more high-Strength fire against single models and Vehicles.

[WarriorFish]

I'm with Seahawk, a normal tank commander Vanquisher because I like the tank and BS4 is the only way to run it :P

[march10k]

 

 I guess they would wreak havoc (against anything, not just a tank squadron)...if they survived the shuffle across the board to get into assault cannon range

 

They can Deep Strike.

 

 

are you saying it's legal to take three fusion blasters (obviously, two of them count as a single twinlinked one)?

 

They may take two separate Fusion Blasters each, non-Twin-Linked. In a squad of 3, that means 6 18" Meltaguns. You can take 3, but only fire two, and you'll have no room left for Hardpoints for Support Systems. Velocity Trackers aren't really worth it on Crisis Suits due to the cost.

 

 

 

Ah, did not know that...Besides cost, I wonder why I haven't seen that, it seems really nasty!  I guess the stuff you could take instead is even nastier in an all-comers context?

 

I had forgotten that the multitracker only allows two weapons to be fired, lol. Still, doubling up is nasty, I wonder why we don't see that more...3x3 deepstriking with dual plasma sounds WAY better than a riptide, IMHO. 12 plasma rifle shots from each unit?  Drop, shoot, move...I like it!  

 

WF/SH,

 

I get the vanquisher, but with only one shot....well, I've played BS4 railheads before, the misses that come up 1/3 of the time are CRUSHING.  That's why I reserve the vanquisher for Pask...rerolling ones.  He's had to use that reroll plenty of times, and has ALWAYS hit on his second chance.  He's only missed twice this year, by rolling a 2 both times...he must have rolled 4-5 ones in the same time period. That only counts the big gun, the lascannon I haven't kept track of, but I vaguely sense it's been far less effective (and often out of range, which is fine, when his main job is to preserve his warlord VP)

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

Ah, did not know that...Besides cost, I wonder why I haven't seen that, it seems really nasty!  I guess the stuff you could take instead is even nastier in an all-comers context?

 

I had forgotten that the multitracker only allows two weapons to be fired, lol. Still, doubling up is nasty, I wonder why we don't see that more...3x3 deepstriking with dual plasma sounds WAY better than a riptide, IMHO. 12 plasma rifle shots from each unit?  Drop, shoot, move...I like it!  

 

I'm surprised you don't! Crisis Suits are very potent, and they're a favourite of pretty much every Tau player I've ever talked to. Double-up on a weapon to make them masters at killing a certain thing, and throw them at that thing 'til it or they die.

[minigun762]

So there isn't much value in a BS4 Exterminator?

 

I guess I just like the oddball Leman Russ variants.

 

Vanquisher is a sexy tank too though.