Dealing with MSU -or- Troop Choices in 7th

[Bionicman]

"Imperial Guard, ready to serve!"

I can't get a grip on how I should play my guardsman in 7th edition. Back in 6th I had 6-10 Platoon Squads with Flamer and Autocannon fullfilling all battlefield roles at the front line: objective grabbing, meat shield, kill teams, you name it. These were complemented by heavy artillery in the back for killing stuff, 2 naked CCS with MoO and maybe a Vendetta for dedicated vehicle hunting. Hell, tossing out those pie plates was great fun and the enemy had to deal with those 6,8,10 single annoying squads or the killy stuff.

Now things have changed. Flyers are much more expensive, artillery is reduced on wyvern and basilisk, heavy weapon teams are still and psychic (phase) is a whole diffrent story. On the other side we got some nice boons like cheap hq for improving our troops and cheaper tanks. And then there are the new missions and the objective secured rule... which in my opinion IG doesn't benefit that much from because we always had enough bodies for scoring.

So let me adress some problems I face:

1. - MSU is the new (old) sexy: Vehicles contest or hold objectives now. Your army needs much more firepower to deal with transports and tanks (wave serpents, AV12 hello?). Nearly all anti-tank options got pricier with the new dex though. Plus you can't one shot vehicles any more with guardsmen-friendly weapons (autocannon, heavy bolter, grenade launcher).

2. - MSU is the new (old) sexy: I can run chimera- vets but compare them to other armies like eldar and SM, necron, even agressive tau, they ain't that effective. Sure I can run my 6-10 platoons but now they have to deal with drop pods, rhinos, landraiders or other heavy stuff sitting on the objectives. Melta bombs for everyone?

3. MSU ain't the new sexy - not for the Imperial Guard. With psychic powers being much more harder to get off (deny the witch against blessings, WC-points instead of moral check) and a lot of nice options to improve basic squads (orders, priests, comissars) 7th ed codex is tempting us to blob up. But if you do your army is a lot less mobile (contrary to MSU), can target only one unit at time per blob (split fire doesn't cut it) and can be targeted and killed easier than before (do i shoot 3x10 men squads or do i shoot 1x30 men squad). And when I blob up I need other units for killing all those things a blob can't kill efficently - like vehicles, monsters, flyers (see a pattern here?). Because 3 lascannons in a blob doesn't cut it without a precience psyker and 24 other dudes have no target - so probably a bad choice.

Questions / Discussion:

- How do your run your troops (Blob, many single squads, MSU vets, minimum troops)?

- Which role does they fulfill?

- How do you kill (heavy) vehicles.

- Are infantry heavy lists a viable option to tank armies

( I thinking about smaller games here, 1500, 1850 points, without allies)

Edit for numbers

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the B&C Bionicman! I must admit that MSU isn't something I ever think of for Guard, it's not something we do. Multiple units yes, but 10 Guardsmen can only be thought of as "small" in durability. I think I understand what you mean by this though, so I think your original lists should still be viable but why not use a new edition to change your ways? That's what I'm trying to do :)

 

I seldom blob my units as I like the manoeuvrability and options that multiple units gives me. If they are mechanised then all the better! I find infantry great for countering enemy infantry and performing vital roles such as escorting tanks and of course capturing objectives. This also lets me focus my armour on AT duties where their mobility is useful for the big guns. As such that's how I deal with heavy armour - with my own or the ever useful artillery. Some Vets with melta are always useful of course, but stripping hull points is still a very viable way to remove armour and something Guard is arguably better at.

 

So infantry heavy armies are viable, but they benefit from support. That aside too many troopers can get a cumbersome logistical nightmare and draw games out too long so it's a good compromise. Sentinels and Hellhounds are good infantry support units, have you thought about them?

[march10k]

un your troops (Blob, many single squads, MSU vets, minimum troops)?  Which role does they fulfill?

 

I spam them.  With chimeras.  My preference is for vets with forward sentries and an autocannon, camping cover (preferably on an objective) while the empty chimera serves as a mobile super-scorer.  See, they can go 18" to reach their objective, then camp it while adding dakka.  With 6 of these (145 each) squads, I get 12 superscorers and usually hold 4-5 objectives with them at by end of turn two.  Then, I'm getting 8 heavy weapons shots for that 145 points while super-denying my opponent or super-scoring for myself, without ever having to move another inch.

 

 

- How do you kill (heavy) vehicles.  The same way I always did, demolisher cannons.  Ok, now I also have pasquisher to help out, but I've noticed that there's rarely more than one AV13+ vehicle on the other side of the table, since, like me, everyone else is spamming transports.  The good news for guard is you can spam transports, those transports are AV12 on the front (pro tip:  face the front armor towards the enemy) for dirt cheap, and you still have plenty of points for 4-5 AV14 tanks.  I don't think "how do you kill heavy vehicles?" is a guard question, it's a "enemy of the guard" question.

 

 

- Are infantry heavy lists a viable option to tank armies. Yes.  Well, depends on how infantry heavy.  I have the models to put 250 guardsmen on the table, that doesn't leave much room for vehicles...

[gomericus]

 How do your run your troops (Blob, many single squads, MSU vets, minimum troops)?

 

I run my troops in squads of 10. 

It gives me more options for firing at different targets

Lets me spread out more

gives my opponent more targets to have to choose between when shooting

I run 6 10 man squads

1 blob of 20 conscripts

3 special weapons teams

3 pcs's 

buffed via a priest and 4 commissars

 

- Which role does they fulfill?

4 squads hold back ,depending on what I am facing and what the table looks like,holding my flanks and targeting light armour,filling in gaps in my lines ,or moving forwards later on to re enforce my forward momentum 

2 squads more forwards,supported by the conscripts,SWT's and PCS's

 

AS to MSU,,,while I run several smaller squads,,,as a whole the guard already kinda have that,,,an example would be my army,,,if they target my las batteries it give my troops and other weapons time to close in and or kill their stuff,if they target my troops my heavy weapons pound them,with 26 potential targets for them to shoot at,they arent going to be able to over focus on any one part,giving my army as a whole time to work together and grind them to pulp.

 

- How do you kill (heavy) vehicles.

 

With 12 lascannons,2 artillery carriages(75pt immobile basilisks,) 9 melta guns,suicide squads via krak grenading riders,and of course the hail Mary MOO shot.

Lighter armour

4 autocannons

10 grenade lauchers

quad gun

mortar

wyvern(n a pinch)

 

- Are infantry heavy lists a viable option to tank armies

 

I only use one vehicle a wyvern.

[Andhil]

I've no problem with vehicles. Due to my groups preference for Heavy Vehicles (AV13+) and MC's, Lascannons and ML's are the norm and melta is plenty. We laugh at Mech MSU. All the while shaking of other peoples Str6-7 toys.

I run 2 Platoons (mind you, we play 3K+), one designed for advancing and capping, the other for holding the line and generally shooting stuff to smithereens.

Here's how I run my Troops:

-Platoon 1:

PCS (1 HF, all the fun upgrades)

-3x IS with flamer, vox

Platoon 2:

PCS (1 meltagun, all the fun, often useless upgrades.)

-3x IS, GL, HB, vox

HWS: 3x LC

HWS: 3x ML (+flakk)

HWS: 3x AC

HWS: 3x Mortar

Veterans

Melta Vets, 3x Melta's, demolitions, vox (embarked on a Valkyrie)

Flamer vets, 3x Flamer, Grenadiers, vox (embarked on a Valkyrie)

So at the moment, I have a decent Infantry presence with decent firepower. I don't understand the hate for Heavy Weapon Squads. They're a great, cheap, scoring choice. Throw them into cover for protection and they'll manage.

All of this is offcourse supported by multiple Lemans and a Wyvern (which is awesome btw, I can't even shed a tear for the other variants. If they'd ask me which I wanted more, I'd grab the Wyvern before they finish the sentence. Unless the other option is the Deathstrike Missile. )

I've faced Mech DE before, and laid waste to whole units very swiftly, so I imagine those tactics would apply easily to Mech MSU MEQ.(Re-reading that last bit made me go --> )

[march10k]

IG don't have trouble killing tanks, we cause problems killing tanks!