Thawn Warp Dice Question

[Dark_Master]

Hello guys, quick question on Thawn equipped squads.

 

If I were to have a Lvl 3 a Librarian with a Termi squad, that would generate 4 warp charges yes?

 

If I add Thawn, does that become 6? Or does that extra 2 dice only come into play if he is killed and becomes a separate unit. I have heard arguments both ways.

 

Cheers in advance

 

DM

[Adeptus]

I believe he has the Psyker: Mastery Level 2 rule, doesn't he? So he would generate Warp Charge points like any other character.

[Exile Noctis]

He's a character so he would generate an extra 2 warp charge.

 

I don't know who told you it comes into effect when he's killed but seeing as he doesn't have the BoP universal rule, the 2WC are extra making the terminator squad he's in have 3WC before adding the libby.

[Gentlemanloser]

BoP has changed in 7th.  It doesn't matter that Thawn doesn't have BoP.

 

As per page 159 a unit containing at least one mini with the BoP rule is classed as single Psyker.  With a PML1 if none is listed (and none is listed for a GKT with the BoP rule).

 

The entire unit is a PML1 BoP Psyker.  Thawn only gets his PML2 when he leaves the unit.

[Quozzo]

BoP has changed in 7th.  It doesn't matter that Thawn doesn't have BoP.

 

As per page 159 a unit containing at least one mini with the BoP rule is classed as single Psyker.  With a PML1 if none is listed (and none is listed for a GKT with the BoP rule).

 

The entire unit is a PML1 BoP Psyker.  Thawn only gets his PML2 when he leaves the unit.

So would that prevent ICs using powers when in a unit?

[boreas]

BoP has changed in 7th.  It doesn't matter that Thawn doesn't have BoP.

 

As per page 159 a unit containing at least one mini with the BoP rule is classed as single Psyker.  With a PML1 if none is listed (and none is listed for a GKT with the BoP rule).

 

The entire unit is a PML1 BoP Psyker.  Thawn only gets his PML2 when he leaves the unit.

 

I disagreed in 6th, still disagree in 7th!

[Exile Noctis]

While GML makes a little sense; wouldn't the character profile type bypass the BoP USR?

It just seems a little odd that an upgraded member to a character couldn't use his PML2 in a unit but hey, what do I know?

[Gentlemanloser]

So would that prevent ICs using powers when in a unit?

Yup.

Stupid, most likely not intended but yet again another rule failure.

I disagreed in 6th, still disagree in 7th!

Even though BoP has changed dramatically since 6th?

While GML makes a little sense; wouldn't the character profile type bypass the BoP USR?

An IC that has joined a unit is counted as part of that unit for all rules purposes.

Which would include BoP, if said unit had it.

It just seems a little odd that an upgraded member to a character couldn't use his PML2 in a unit but hey, what do I know?

He can use it.

He's not just a Squad upgrade, but he can become a squad in his own right.

A Squad which doesn't have the BoP rule. ;)

[Exile Noctis]

Hopefully an FAQ or something can clear up on the matter. Seems odd and all but suppose it makes some sense.

[boreas]

GW should really make a second round of FAQ. But, hey they're really busy updating the Sororitas codex.

[Adeptus]

BoP has changed in 7th.  It doesn't matter that Thawn doesn't have BoP.

 

As per page 159 a unit containing at least one mini with the BoP rule is classed as single Psyker.  With a PML1 if none is listed (and none is listed for a GKT with the BoP rule).

 

The entire unit is a PML1 BoP Psyker.  Thawn only gets his PML2 when he leaves the unit.

I think it's also possible to read the rule so that only the models which have the BoP rule are ML 1. For instance, I don't think anyone is arguing that a ML 3 Librarian counts as ML 1 when attached to a Terminator squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, apart from the IC rules that states an IC is part of the unit they have joined for all rules purposes.

 

GW rewrote BoP and failed to notice how this would impact things like GK Squads.

 

 

GW should really make a second round of FAQ. But, hey they're really busy updating the Sororitas codex.

 

Have they even done the first round of BRB FAQ?

 

It needs to be massive! ;)

[Valerian]

Independent Character, page 166:

 

"While and Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of a unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for character."  Ok, fair enough.

 

But, also: "When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit.  Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the units's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

 

Since the first sentence is about 'rules' in general, and the second sentence is about 'special rules,' then we must interpret the first so as to only include what we might consider basic rules (e.g.  how to Move, how to Shoot, etc.).  

 

Brotherhood of Psykers (page 159) and Psyker (page 170) are both special rules, and are not conferred from unit to attached IC.

 

Now, when you start to consider Justicar Thawn, things get a little wonky, as he isn't an Independent Character, but rather an upgrade Character for the unit.  However, it seems a fair and logical method for figuring out how to use him is to treat him in the same way as an IC, since he has the Psyker rule, and not the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.  This really should be addressed by the Eratta/Amendments/FAQ team, just to make it super clear and put an end to the debate, but until it is, this is a fair and reasonable way to play him.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

BoP references the 'unit' though.

 

Is the IC part of the unit?

[Valerian]

BoP references the 'unit' though.

 

Is the IC part of the unit?

In most ways, yes, but not for special rules unless they explicitly call out that the special rule is conferred, which isn't the case for BOP.

[Gentlemanloser]

That goes counter to the earlier "for all rules purposes".

 

What about all those Special rules that only need to apply to a single mini in the unit, to apply to the entire unit.  Do they now not apply to attached ICs?

[Adeptus]

Yes, RAW a Librarian loses his mastery levels when he joins a Terminator squad.

 

But we all know this isn't how the rule works. A Librarian clearly doesn't get hamstrung by joining a GK unit, so let's all just agree that the technicality of the rules as written in this case is a clear mistake from GW and that Thawn, being a ML 2 psyker in his own right, adds 2 warp charge dice to the pool.

[march10k]

RAW is dead!  It didn't take long for GW to realize that the laziness involved in declaring RAW official was a mistake.  You can safely conclude that a proper psycher retains his mastery level and continues to contribute warp charges when he joins a BoS, and without feeling the least bit uncomfortable about RAW.

[Gentlemanloser]

In that case, on a 4+ prior to deployment, I win! ;)

 

But I agree.  This is the edition that GW finally give up any pretense at a ruleset.  They don't care.  Play however you want is thier mantra, and producing rules to give a game isn't something they care to be proficient at.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Which is good and bad. On the one hand, it means that we will hopefully have less stupid arguments because RAW is now dead and buried (as even GW say you can bend their rules if they are wonky and don't work as intended). On the other hand, it's pure nightmare fuel for tourneys, as they have to do their own FAQ's even more thoroughly, not to mention ban outright entire expansions and subsets of the game. 

 

In response to OP, Thawn generates 2WC, his squad generates 1WC, a Librarian with Mastery 2 generates 2WC regardless of whether he is attached or not. BoP is just badly worded is all. 

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, it's just not problems for TO's.  It's *hell* for friendly games.

 

I'm desperately trying to get my group back into playing 7th.  But they just will not come back.  Not when we have to sit down, and produce our own document of rule fixes prior to us even having a friendly 500 point game.

 

And once we've gone through the *entire* rules, fixed the mistakes and made them work, we're now playing our version of 40k.  Any time we move outside our small group and invite others in for pick up games, we would need to go trough our document of fixes and make sure newcomers agree to them in their entirety.

 

Or start rewriting the document again for a single new player.

 

It's not going to happen for us.

 

As a friendly, pick up game, 40k has died for us.  It's too much effort to make it work.

[Valerian]

RD, it's just not problems for TO's.  It's *hell* for friendly games.

 

I'm desperately trying to get my group back into playing 7th.  But they just will not come back.  Not when we have to sit down, and produce our own document of rule fixes prior to us even having a friendly 500 point game.

 

And once we've gone through the *entire* rules, fixed the mistakes and made them work, we're now playing our version of 40k.  Any time we move outside our small group and invite others in for pick up games, we would need to go trough our document of fixes and make sure newcomers agree to them in their entirety.

 

Or start rewriting the document again for a single new player.

 

It's not going to happen for us.

 

As a friendly, pick up game, 40k has died for us.  It's too much effort to make it work.

Just my opinion, but I think you guys are putting way too much effort into it by trying to go through the whole ruleset and work on fixes in advance. Instead, what I'd recommend is that you just play games. Play the game, and on the off-chance something odd comes up, you quickly deal with it. If you can't agree on how to deal with it, then you just roll-off, and move on. Shouldn't even take you a minute to resolve an issue, and you probably won't even have too many come up.

 

The only times where the above doesn't work well, is when somebody is has it in mind to try and break the game. Some folks just want to make an issue out of each and every little detail that might not have been perfectly laid out for us in the rules. If you, or any of your friends, is this kind of guy, well then no, the games aren't going to be any fun regardless.

 

Some folks just spend all of their effort on trying to break the game, and not on trying to make the game work.

 

V

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pretty much what Valerian said. That's been my experience 40k in general, not even just 7th. Play the game, when rules conundrums come up either have a quick discussion about what it should be, or if you and your opponent can't agree D6 it. 

 

I don't think 40k is dead as a pick-up game, it's actually far harder as a tournament game now. In pickup matches, you can ignore all kinds of stupid stuff (Mysterious Terrain/Objectives, Tacticool Objectives etc) that just slows it down and adds nothing of value. Tourney organisers are going to be driven insane by 7th though, its full of useless filler that GW has not explicitly ruled out of the main game (Unbound is just the most egregious example, all the expansions add to this problem as well). 

[Gentlemanloser]

Val, we have a very mixed group of armies.  When your opponent can't even start writing their list because Battle-Forged / Unbound has issues with Chapter Tactics, we all need to get together and agree on how it works.

 

Just look at the issues that are raised on the B&C.  Psychic Power Limits, etc.  All these have to be ironed out before people write and finialise their lists.

 

No one wants to turn up to a game, and find after it starts the synergy of the army they wanted to bring doesn't work, as some fundamental part of the rules don't work and we have to fix it for GW.

 

It sucks all the fun out.  As does rewriting the rules.

 

We might just as well be playing 5th edition, and 'fixing' our new Codexes to work with that.

 

Then there's the issue of our fixes havign to be agreed with others, every time we fancy inviting someone else for a game.

 

This whole process just isn't fun.

 

It's no longer as simple as just calling a mate up and agreeing point limits any more.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's no longer as simple as just calling a mate up and agreeing point limits any more.

 

Well it never was anyway. 

 

40k has always had dumb design issues, loopholes and weird interactions. Its because its background and modelling are done by people with amazing talent for it (the lore is still what makes 40k so different to other franchises, even PP fanboys acknowledge that aspect), but then they try and write rules to match and it never works out. 

 

You have to adapt to each new edition, and grit your teeth through the stupid decisions made about the rules. Something practical I would suggest is writing a cheat sheet of setup stuff, and also general stuff about your army (ie Mastery levels, power selections, wargear rules etc) on a reference paper. My group wrote one for 6th and we're developing one for 7th, and it really does help. I always forget to roll Warlord trait, as just one example (sometimes I forget to manifest powers lol). 

 

If you find larger battles too much work, or Psykers too complicated, just don't use them. In casual games, there isn't any need to include all aspects of the game. New people have to adapt to your groups meta anyway, so adapting to your house rules (provided there aren't too many to remember) is just another part of that learning process.