Trying to Make World Eaters Work in 7th Edition

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

I'm revisiting an experiment I tried a lot in 6th.... but I think it might be better now, however I full admit this might be a short experiment so that's why I'm posting this here.

 

I'll jump right to the heart of the matter: 

 

+++ We play mostly Maelsrom now as that's what has really brought up the interest level in playing 40K around here. So I think that's a plus for World Eaters (sitting in a corner with superior firepower isn't as cut and dry.)

 

+++  have a lot of painting, and a even more unpainted World Eaters from Forgeworld. A great deal of them took damage in a moving accident. But I can field the models (even broken) for the purpose of this experiment.

 

+++ I am on the fence about Psykers in 7th. Some armies do it very well, some armies struggle to get a single power off.... I am trying to keep an open mind but my 7th edition experience thus far is telling me: Put a LOT into the Psyker face or go Necron on it (ignore it). The Psyker inbetween list IMHO gets you a modest defense bonus and that's it. With World Eaters it seems easy to say... to heck with it.

 

     +++ *IF* I wanted to include psykers.... I can simply add one, and call him a rare, semi-trusted Librarian from the old ways. Or simply use Crimson Slaughter. 

 

+++ Further to above: I get stuck in a way of building a list due to things (baggage?) I -myself- bring to the table. It's a bad habit, but it shows my age and the years I've lived on the 'old' fluff. I freely admit it is a detriment in more ways than not. However, I have to admit Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Betrayer has adjusted my mentality on this significantly.

 

+++ Survivability of walkers. I play against Nids a fair bit and they were autodeath for my walkers. It's not so automatic with the changes to smash. I've always loved Maulerfiends, this works to the WE assault mentality.

 

+++ Troop delivery systems (IE:Drop Pods) have always been...an issue. The Landraider just got a bit better this edition. Ours may not be optimal, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the best to simply work.

 

+++ Finally, and most importantly: Assault as a valid strategy seems to be.... better now, and at a greater advantage in Maelstrom than it used to be. So what I'm finding is, it's great to be able to pew-pew the guy from across the table but if you can't handle the meat sitting in front of your objective, it's a different ballgame. (I've had many friends who have played with certain lists in 6th edition (very successfully) have to completely rethink them because of a very aggressive playstyle I have adopted.

 

++++++++ Considerations in 7th Edition List Building ++++++++

 

+++ Khârn. Why not? Last I checked he still lays a whooping on a good deal of stuff. The question is getting him there. Landraider?

 

+++ Daemon Prince. WIthout zooming, can this guy bring anything to the table anymore? 

 

+++ Troops: I have been playing around with Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion, and the standard Chaos Codex.  Comparing three possible 'elites as troops scenarios' we see the following:

 

- 8 Berzerkers: 162 Pts + specials (+fearless, + 1 WS, +Rage, Counter attack, Furious Charge) (- mid expense, -rely on rhino/transport, lack of options)

 

- 8 Possessed: 208 pts + (+fearless, +fear, +fleet, + invuln, + random table, +can work on foot) (-random table, -no shooting capability, - high expense -no frag/krak)

 

- 8 Chosen: 144 Pts + specials (+lowest cost, +extreme flexibility, +1 Attack,) (- Votlw Tax, - not fearless)

 

The choice isn't that clear cut to me. If you get lucky, Possessed could be the best ROI. But I hate luck, and luck hates me.  The Chosen could seem like the most obvious discount answer, but the synergy of the entire list is where this might make a difference. Khârn immediately turns the Berzerkers into troops which is nice, and the problem with math-hammer is it doesn't take all the intangibles into account of real world experiences... personally I place merit on Furious Charge, Counter Attack and Rage. (Don't forget in 7th you don't have to roll for Counter Attack now.)

 

To me the greatest limitation to Berzerkers (at their present cost) is the lack of weapon choices. Plasma Pistols are costly... at 10 Points I think I'd use them. I may still experiment with this. The axes really should be AP4 at this price without having to pay extra. Still, all those units compared are Super Scoring and I don't think anyone one of them is laughable.

 

++++++++ Outfitting Khârn's Berzerkers ++++++++

 

Let's say the Butcher's Nails are at ease for a moment, and Khârn is crafting a plan of destruction. He sits down with his brethren, frothing at the mouth for action, and he sets them up for the kill of their lives.....

 

+++ Is it worth going beyond 5 men with Rhno's? Multi -mid level armour spam? 

 

+++ How would he outfit the Champions? I've tried fists, I've tried Power Axes, I've tried a Claw, I've tried a Power Maul. They all have merit but in 5 man squads this might change to... nothing? (the closest I've gone to nothing is a cheap claw, or power mauls personally )

 

++++++++ Supporting Troops ++++++++

 

+++  Cultists? This is iffy. In a list where you want to spend a lot of points on rushing and assaulting, is it worth the expenditure on these guys? Do these guys even lift?  Are they worth keeping in the back field for Objective support? What do you babysit them with? Or do you discount them all together?

 

+++  CSM? Not everyone can have an axe. Some World Eaters (or normal marines even) may prefer to remain 'cheap' alternatives with 2 plasma guns sitting on an objective, helping with small arms fire and sitting in a super scoring Rhino to boot. Are 10 man squads worth it anymore? Or is 5 + a Rhino going to work?

 

++++++++ Supporting with Machines of Destruction ++++++++

 

The main thrust of the strategy is getting some wetwork in as fast as you can. Obvious choices to me are:

 

+++ 2 x (or more) Maulerfiends. Fast, a little better with hammer of wrath. Mangma Cutters. (I used to take Tendrils but not anymore)

 

+++ Landraider. Khârn's best chance of getting there?  A huge fire magnet in an edition where a Pen 7 is needed to stop this dead in its tracks.

 

+++ Bale-Drake. Perhaps less so now that 7th has nerfed the template to a 45*  angle from the mouth. But it is still movable from the spot measured, and fairly potent. It may cause you to hover mode more often, but in a list with little firepower, it just might be the Bale-drake that digs out those Devs, or Long Fangs sitting in cover. 

 

Less automatic choices: AKA The Elite Options that we typically ignore.

 

+++ Terminators. I have to admit in 6th I still used these a lot in small squads. I think in a World Eater based list where you're struggling for fire support, a squad of 3 with combi-plas/combi-melta is worth consideration. (I always Deep Strike this unit.)

 

+++ Helbrutes. What a great model. Still crazy as heck, but the new data sheet might help. This unit can perhaps be the most flexible. With the data sheet (I don't own it yet so this may be inaccurate) I think this unit can be a bit more survivable, arrive deep strike, and have a balance of close combat, and a shooty arm. I could see this helping this kind of list a lot.

 

Fast Attack Choices to help the cause:

 

+++ Bikes have always been an automatic. I used to use these til I just got sick of using them. I guess they will probably be a top selection even in this list... even if you don't go Mark Of Nurgle for the sake of theme. Two melta guns is always useful.

 

+++ Raptors. Less popular, but a fun unit that does work as long as you don't math hammer them compared to bikes! Great models, and worth a look if you're like me and sick of the bike theme. Deep strike is a big plus here. Don't forget Jink kind of got nerfed for bikes.

 

+++ Heldrake: Mentioned above.

 

+++ Spawn. A solid choice, but I'm unqualified for this. I never liked the models, and the theme brought me too close to space hippies (daemons). But I know they are good bang for the buck! They block LOS, they move fast, and although I hear they smell like burning garbage, they can be a solid speed bump (MoN if you're not going with the total Khorne theme.)

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well those are the considerations for 7th edition list building (Maelstrom).  If you think it's a stupid idea, that is fair, but a lot of what motivates me to play isn't necessarily breaking my opponent's back. I love theme, as well as being competitive. I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. 

 

As mentioned earlier, I had some very good success in 6th with this kind of list. Mostly the speed surprised people. In 7th where objective play is paramount, speed + resilience + the ability to actually take something over is pretty huge. 

 

I will try to put something together in the 1850 point range for a test... very soon! I'd love to hear some feedback on these ideas.

 

 

 

[incinerator950]

Sheesh has had good times with his Khârn/chosen with mok. I'm sure he'll be here any day now.

[Dallas Drake]

I don't really see no pistols on Possessed as that much of a minus. I mean, how often do you chose to not run a melee unit just so you can shoot their pistols or choose to shoot their pistols when there's a chance you might fail your charge if you kill the first 3 or 4 models?

[Prot]

Sheesh has had good times with his Khârn/chosen with mok. I'm sure he'll be here any day now.

 

Good, I hope he can add to the thread!

 

I don't really see no pistols on Possessed as that much of a minus. I mean, how often do you chose to not run a melee unit just so you can shoot their pistols or choose to shoot their pistols when there's a chance you might fail your charge if you kill the first 3 or 4 models?

 

True, but at least the option is there. At 12" I'm pistoling regardless since I roll so bad for assault whenever I really  need it. ;)

 

But all things considered, I put it as a plus because at least you have that option. It could even come in handy for overwatch (you never know) versus never having that option.

[the jeske]

how many actual WE do there have to be in the list, because you could build a list with maulers , spawn , some MSU zerkers with combi flamers for anti horde[combi flamers on the rhinos too] and cultists for back objectives , supported by either demon ally or beefing up the HQs to 3 by taking multi detachments.

[Trevak Dal]

Before I got rid of my guys, the BEST I ended up doing was spamming MSU Beserkers in an Unbound game (2000 some points of Just Beserkers with Spawn with MoT out in front).

 

Now, the reason for the success, was that the enemy (Eldar opponent, Foot Army with avatar, Wraith Knight, 2 Wraith Lords and a couple of Wraith Guard units along with guardians defenders, storm guardians and a Dire Avengers, Dark Reapers and Swooping Hawks and Striking Scorpions)

 

Basically, I had them working like 10 (or 15...or 20) man squads, but in groups of 5.  And all that magnificant shooting he could bring to bear...could only be allocated to at most, 5 guys (ran the spawn as single spawns to enhance the Elves' target priority woes)

 

Champs had meltabomb-and that was it.  2" max spacing on ALL squads...and then just moved forward like your favorite movie scene.  I like to imagine it going down something sort of like The Charge from The Man in the Iron Mask, mixed with the Gears of War 2 trailer where Marcus is charging with the Locust corpse shield.

 

He could not neutralize the mass heading towards him.  I especially loved how the avatar died.  He got his mighty 10s across the board with his 5 attacks that wiped out the spawn the champ and a beserker who attacked him...and then he ate 2" of attacks.  I had to borrow dice before he told me to roll the ones I had before allocating the rest of them.  The Emperor himself couldn't make that man 3+ saves and old Avatar died.  And then-the Wraith units died.  

The Striking scorpions gave me a good run for the money...except they choked the charge and ate some overwatch, with a krak grenade killing the exarch-and then getting charged by an angry gang of bunny earred guys looking to hurt sneaky elves.

 

It was dirty-it was unkind  it was a wall of unpainted :cuss You stomping a mudhole in Elf 'holier than thou' ass.  It was a game won entirely by assault and using dice mechanics...*sigh* and it wasn't satisfying because that's not how I wanted them to be, stupid orks in power armor.

[Deadman Wade]

I've played a few games against tyranids and new orks with rhino-rush berzerkers, Khârn, land raider, two squads of AC havocs and quad gun.

In my experience other assault-based armies have no chances against berzerkers, who are equally good at chopping both hordes and elite squads, and most likely will win even when they got charged. Lack of options isn't really a problem, except that it makes berzerkers quite boring to model and paint.

Fast ranged armies are tough to fight against, and though I managed to win against tau and eldar it was only because I got lucky with tactical objectives.

[Sheesh Mode]

Sheesh has had good times with his Khârn/chosen with mok. I'm sure he'll be here any day now.

You honor me sir. 

 

Right. So Prot, we have spoken in my topic Khârn and the Black Tide. You already have a good idea of how my army works and what is necessary for it to do it's job well. It is a very specific play style that has some hard counters, but careful maneuvering and the Will of the Gods can see you through.

 

First off: Khârn. He makes the squad he joins fearless and grants them hatred. That is huge for a unit geared for close combat, especially chosen who do not have access to fearless without an Icon of Vengeance. That in itself prevents them from using other, more suitable, icons. Stick him with a squad of chosen geared for assault and transport popping, drive that landraider straight at the enemy line and get stuck in. 

 

Chosen: In my opinion chosen do everything Berzerkers do not: they bring power weapons and special weapons to the table. This is exactly what is wrong with Berzerkers, they lack entry power (melta) and staying power (power weapons). While they do throw a bucket of dice at the target, almost all of those are close combat attacks. Your opponent is likely to save most of them, particularly if they are space marines. My primary chosen squad (which is joined by Khârn) consists of 2 Lightning Claw Pairs, 2 Meltas, 1 Power Fist, a Champion with a Combi-Melta and power axe, and an Icon of wrath. There are 9 models in the squad, two of them are bullet sponges. That unit can kill anything with a 3+ save and is fully capable of breaking open transports and assaulting the contents. In-fact that is exactly what the squad was built to do: assault landraiders. 

 

Cultists: Cultists are great, I cannot say enough about these cheap, durable fire-magnets. Where chosen are specialized elite-infantry, cultists are the poor scrubs running about getting shot. However, I recommend the Helcult if you are going to field cultists. Fearless scrubs makes the difference between losing a 150 point unit of 35 bodies to a single turn of shooting, and forcing your opponent to shoot down every last model else they risk losing objectives in the late game. Furthermore, I have found that a squad of cultists running forward supported by a basic dreadnought make for a great distraction. No one likes large mobs closing in on their gunline, particularly if the mob is supported by a dreadnought with rage and a multi-melta. Don't expect them to do a whole lot other than die, but use them to put pressure on the enemy and support your chosen.  

 

Landraider: Our landraider is the most dynamic assault tank in the game. It is also one of the cheapest. What most people do not realize is that the multi-functionality of our landraider is actually a boon: it means the tank is a threat to heavy vehicles which are one of the big obstacles for chosen - other than hammernators and 2+ saves - destroying them at a distance or with shots of opportunity up close makes your assault that much easier. Furthermore, our landraiders have DOZERBLADES I cannot praise this upgrade enough. Where most loyalist armies have to drive around terrain and make their 'perfect assault run' we simply ignore it. The psychological effect (and general hilarity) of driving a landraider through manufactorum ruins is fantastic. Furthermore it makes terrain a larger advantage for you. Another point to make about our Landraiders are the inclusion of Dirge Casters. In my opinion there is no reason you should not equip your metal box with a dirge caster. It is very easy to justify with fluff, and turns your transport into the answer against Tau and Imperial Guard lines. Blob squads and massed Tau are not nearly as threatening when they have no means of stopping your assault. Also, equip your raiders with Extra Armor. The bloody thing is too expensive, and it's cargo too valuable, to lose a turn due to a low damage chart roll. 

 

Things to beware: Chosen are a powerful anti-infantry unit and fully capable of annihilating armies so long as they can assault each turn. Focus on keeping them maximizing the damage they can cause and hiding them in assault. Shooting armies cannot hurt you when you are stabbing their people in the face. Minimize the distance between you and the enemy to the shortest possible route. Even if your driving into the teeth of a vanquisher cannon your chosen can run the rest of the way. I've seen 6 chosen led by Khârn chew through half an army of guard. 

 

 

I hope this helps. I will continue to post on my own topic and provide more thoughts in the future. 

[the jeske]

Aren't most loyalist "assault" units based around bikes or cavalery so the LR not having dozers is a non problem ?

[Sheesh Mode]

Bikers are terrible assault units unless placed in very specific instances against troops with low numbers and little to no power weapons. The addition of a dozerblade on a landraider gives it an advantage over most loyalist equivalents. The Dark Angels are an exception, though their raider will still be more expensive than one fielded by Chaos Space Marines. 

 

Furthermore, in terms of assault I am referring to the close combat ability - and aid to such - of a given unit. Thus the majority of examples will include assault transports, and assault units like Assault marines, Raptors, Honor Guard and Vangaurd Veterans, Chosen, Berserkers, Wolf Guard, Thunderwolves, Maulerfiends, Helbrutes, Captains, Chaos Lords, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Decimators, Fenresian Wolves, Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Chaos Space Marines, Noise Marines, Sanguinary Guard, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Dread Knights, Terminators, and Daemon Princes.

 

The ability to deliver a turn 2 assault is not to be underestimated. 

[the jeske]

Bikers are terrible assault units unless placed in very specific instances against troops with low numbers and little to no power weapons.

no power weapons. So what are all those characters armed with ccws?

The ability to deliver a turn 2 assault is not to be underestimated.

Ok. But do bikes or TWC somehow have a rule that stops them from doing a turn 2 charge. +the chosen/zerker cost as much as a biker unit and both are joined by HQs[because all melee units do], then the loyalist version of the set up will have one more[at least] because LR cost , which may help with transport but doesn't help with assault.

Or to make a more chaos example chosen/zerkers[aside of their actual viability to do melee] will either cost a lot more then a chaos biker+same HQs unit or will have fewer Hqs still cost as much, but have less utility and/or killing power.

[Sheesh Mode]

You're comparing bikes - who rely on a single character to be viable in assault - to chosen, who can take power weapons and special weapons to better aid them in assault. Chosen don't need a character to be viable in assault, bikes do. Loyalist spacemarine characters make up for their general inability to excel in assault, bikes are more suited to shooting from a distance and avoiding protracted assault because of their low numbers and lack of power weapons. 

 

Furthermore, a unit in a landraider is more likely to be at full strength for a 2nd turn charge than bikes or thunderwolf cavalry are. They will also benefit from the presence of a dirge caster on the landraider, loyalists do not enjoy this luxury. 

[incinerator950]

Everyone needs Khârn.