Vindicare Assassin Specialty ammo

[Butters]

I was wondering about the special ammo that removes invul saves for the rest of the game.  I cannot remember the name of it and am at work right now but I'm sure you know which one it is.  Am I understanding it correctly that if it hits and wounds at all the invul saves are automatically gone.  This does not mean the wound cant be saved, obviously through a cover save since its AP1.  

I had a discussion the other day that if the wound is saved then the invul save is still there, but I though that it went at follows:

 

Roll to hit

 

(if hit) Roll to wound

 

(if wounded)A wound has now be allocated the the model

 

Now attempt to save any wounds allocated to the model/models.

 

 

The wording on the ammo I believe specifically states that all it has to do is be allocated to the model meaning that even if the wound is saved the unit still loses its unvul save right?

 

Secondly when shooting at an imperial Knight is there invul save coming from a piece of wargear? 

 

 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Shieldbreaker Rounds. It only removes the piece of Wargear that gives Invuln saves, it can't take away an innate Invuln save given by a special rule, though. It's also only if it Hits that it kills the Shield, IIRC. Doesn't even need to Wound.

 

The Imperial Knight gets its Shield from the Ion Shield. I'm unsure whether this is a Wargear or a special rule, though.

[Venemox]

Ion Shield is listed as Wargear, specifically.  If we equate wounds with penetrating and glancing hits, then the Shieldbreaker Round triggers after determining if a hit would glance, penetrate, or fail.  Given that Sniper weapons have an equivalent strength of 4 vs vehicles, and a Knight has a minimum armor of 12,  the Shieldbreaker Round 'wound' can not normally be assigned to the Knight as it is impossible to glance or penetrate its armor (barring external modifiers).  

[Axagoras]

it has rending so it can go up to 13, 4+6+3... so can you assign a shot to a unit you cannot hurt? such as vs a land raider

[CoffeeGrunt]

You may fire a weapon at a vehicle, even if it can't damage it. That's how Scatter Lasers work for Eldar, at least, despite them only being Strength 6.

[Venemox]

it has rending so it can go up to 13, 4+6+3... so can you assign a shot to a unit you cannot hurt? such as vs a land raider

 

No, it does not.  Sniper weapons lost rending in 7th, but gained a point in equivalent Strength when shot at vehicles.  BRB. S[ecial Rules, Sniper.  FYI, Sniper weapons also lost Pinning :(

 

 

You may fire a weapon at a vehicle, even if it can't damage it. That's how Scatter Lasers work for Eldar, at least, despite them only being Strength 6.

 

Yes, you may fire it.  However the Shieldbreaker Round works immediately upon allocatingthe wound, not taking the shot..  So first, you must roll a wound (or, in this case, a glancing or penetrating hit).  C:GK page 53, and BRB, The Shooting Sequence.

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally correct.

 

By RAW, the Shield Breaker round has no effect on Vehicles, as you can't 'Wound' them.  The RAI would be that when the Codex was released there weren't any 'core' Vehicles that had access to an Invulnerable Save (as wargear), so the SB rule didn't need to specify it worked on Vehicles.

 

But now, when you have things like Knights, who do, the RAI should be it effects them as well.

 

Also, the loss of Rending is correct.  And :cuss

[Axagoras]

sisters of battle vehicles had invul saves

[Venemox]

sisters of battle vehicles had invul saves

 

But not supplied by Wargear, so not susceptible to the Shieldbreaker Rounds.

[markham82]

If the shieldbreaker round removes the wargear granting the invul, does the model lose other special rules that come with the wargear( the shield eternal for example) 

[Axagoras]

no, they just lose the invul save granted by wargear

[Butters]

So it does remove the save before there is any attempt to make a save. SO basically its is a free wound because its AP1 and doesnt allow invul saves. Cept for Feel No Pain.  SO GOOD NOW!! 

 

Ok thanks guys I thought that was how it worked.

[Gentlemanloser]

It does allow Invulnerable saves.

 

There are many units that gain an Invulnerable save from a special rule, and not Wargear (like Dodge).

 

Shield Breaker does nothing to remove this.

 

It would also not remove any Invulnerable from Wargear provided by another unit, not hit by the Vindicare.  Like Azreals Helm or a PFG.

[Butters]

How would Azreals Helm's save not be removed?  Something about that extra model or whatever?

[Gentlemanloser]

If the Vindicare shot Az, then it would.

 

But if the Vindicare shot another mini in the unit and not Az, that mini wouldn't lose thier Invulnerable Save.

 

Hmm.  That's debatealbe actually, as the save is caused by Wargear.

 

Just not Wargear on the target.

[Venemox]

Interesting question about Az's Helm, so I looked in C:DA.  The only wargear (by title) Az has in frag and krak grenades.  Everything else is classified as Chapter Relics.  that might be splitting hairs, but I thought it was pertinent to the discussion.

[Butters]

MMMM maybe it is. I would say that it is wargear, because when a space marine captain take the burning blade as his close combat weapon even though it is a Chapter Relic its part of his wargear. 

[Venemox]

After all the arguments about Company Champion and Apothecaries not being Veterans, I'd say this falls into the same boat.  Wargear is called Wargear, and Chapter Relics are Chapter Relics.  Changing the name fundamentally alters the characteristic, and affects any rules looking for that name.  Looking at the example breakdown in the C:SM, Chapter Relics is section 190, Wargear is section 6.

[Gentlemanloser]

So a Vindicare couldn't Shield Break the Invulnerable Save from the Shield Eternal?

 

What is 'Wargear'?

 

If you look at the Space Marine Codex, there isn't any.  As the section is 'Armoury of the Space Marines' and contains the sections;

 

Ranged Weapons

Melee Weapons

Special Issue Wargear

Armour

Space Marine Vehicle Equipment

Chapter Relics

 

You could claim that only 'Special Issue Wargear' is Wargear.  But it's 'Special Issue', so can a Vindicare break that as they can only break 'Wargear', not 'Special Issue Wargear'.

 

But.

 

If you look at the unit entries of any unit in the Codex, under 'Wargear', it mentions items from all these lists.  Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Armour, Vehicle Equipment, Special Issue.

 

By this, we must accept that all the sections of the 'Armory of the Space Marines' is 'Wargear'.

 

And all susceptible to the Vindicares Shield Breaker.

 

Including Chapter Relics.

 

Basically, Shield Breaker destroys an object, but has no effect on your ability to Dodge.

 

Edit: As for a mini in Az's unit.  They would lose the Save form the Helm, but Az and the rest of the unit would still have it.

[Morollan]

So a Vindicare couldn't Shield Break the Invulnerable Save from the Shield Eternal?

 

What is 'Wargear'?

 

If you look at the Space Marine Codex, there isn't any.  As the section is 'Armoury of the Space Marines' and contains the sections;

 

Ranged Weapons

Melee Weapons

Special Issue Wargear

Armour

Space Marine Vehicle Equipment

Chapter Relics

 

You could claim that only 'Special Issue Wargear' is Wargear.  But it's 'Special Issue', so can a Vindicare break that as they can only break 'Wargear', not 'Special Issue Wargear'.

 

 

If you look at the heading of that chart it actually says "SPACE MARINES WARGEAR LIST"  and goes on to say "These lists detail the points values of various items of wargear available to units in your army" so I think it's safe to say that the shieldbreaker works on any of those items, along with anything listed as wargear in a unit entry.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mine doesn't. lol. The joys of multiple electronic versions!

I've got;

This section of Codex: Space Marines lists the weapons and equipment used
by the Space Marines along with the rules for using them in your games of
Warhammer 40,000. Equipment that is carried by named special characters is
detailed in the appropriate entry in the Adeptus Astartes section, while
weapons and equipment used by all the other types of units are detailed here.

Doesn't mention 'wargear' by name at all.

Ah!

I see it now, it's later, and before the Army List entries.

SPACE MARINES WARGEAR LIST
These lists detail the points values of various items of wargear available to
units in your army. Many unit entries in the army list that follows may include
wargear options from one or more of these lists – in each instance, the army
list entry will tell you (in bold text) exactly which of these lists you may use.

Contain the Relic list.

:)

All's good in the world!

[Venemox]

Enhance image.. List seems to inclued (in the case of C:DA, as Az was the subject), Foe-Smiter, Lion;s Roar, mace of redemption, Monster Slayer of Calban, and Shroud of Heroes. Conspicuously absent from the page that lists wargear... Lion Helm.

Wargear is detailed in one section of the Unit entry, and Relics in another. On the page describing each unit, Wargear is detailed in a list, and relics have their own callout box.

On second thought, since this argument only serves to defeat my purposes, of course you're right.