7th ed changes: Spell Familiar and Heldrake

[Prot]

Hey guys, I just want to make sure I'm doing this right (no one else on my planet plays Chaos)

Spell Famillars say 'May re-roll failed tests'.  Does that mean if I roll 6 dice (warp charges expended), and 5 of them are a result of 3 or under, I can re-roll up to all 5 of them?

 

This might make my solo Crimson Slaughter Sorc actually worth it. I just want to make sure I'm not abusing the rule.

 

I've had to go back and re-read the Helrake entry in the codex, the old FAQ, and the May 27th, 2014 FAQ.

 

The Heldrake is taking a beating from some people on the forums. But if I understand correctly, it basically just lost the ability to fart fire. Am I correct?

 

Assuming the old ruling was: Measure from the closest part of the base to the opponent. The new ruling is: measure from the barrel of the gun.

 

This also is hull mounted meaning a 45* angle is acceptable, correct? 

 

The Baleflamer is still Torrent, and Soul Blaze. So Torrent hasn't changed either has it? I mean you haev 45*, then measure out 12" and start rotating the template to your desired target. Does this sound right?

 

If so, I'm not sure why everyone is so down on it. I understand ignoring flyers entirely. It's something I've done a lot of in fast moving lists... but otherwise if I'm interpreting it correctly it seems okay to me even with the inability to fire backwards. 

 

 

[Teetengee]

the 45 degrees is total arc, 22.5 in any one direction, including down. It means that there is a very small arc of legal firing due to the heldrake's height off the table.

[Sception]

Actually, I haven't found where it says 'including down' yet.  Will look in book later to try again.  Not sure if any rules exist for vertical los?

 

As for the spell familiar, no, you make one test to try and pass the spell, so lets say you throw six dice at a WC2 power.  If you fail, ie, you only get one success, then you reroll the entire test, all six dice, to try again, you don't get to keep the one success you already rolled.

[Dallas Drake]

For what you get now it's overpriced. Flamer used to be useful now the best option is hades which at AP4 isn't doing much. I used to run two, now I run none. And they were a right *arrghhh* to paint too. Shame.

 

Edit: nothing in the rule book talks about vertical sponsons, not that I could find.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Ya as far as I know there's no vertical arc of fire. Sure the drake isn't as good as it use to be, but it's still good. Can't go wrong with a a6, ap3 flamer. It's just not the auto include it use to be. 

[Sception]

Well, I would be looking through my own book, but my tablet, that just came back from repair by the manufaturer this week is broken - the tablet turns on, but the display doesn't. Nothing even happened - just this morning it worked fine, this evening totally inoperable.

It's going to be a real effort not to yell at the poor phone support worker when I call it in tomorrow to ask for another ticket, for another repair, and would they be so kind as to not make the problem worse this time.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Ya as far as I know there's no vertical arc of fire. Sure the drake isn't as good as it use to be, but it's still good. Can't go wrong with a a6, ap3 flamer. It's just not the auto include it use to be. 

 

Under "Vehicles in the Shooting Phase" section, "Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight" subsection: "On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate and swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45˚, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45˚."

[Spaz431]

The drake still holds a position on my list, actually 3 do. Players who do not use the drake will forget that it can use hover meaning that it can capture objectives per turn, and fully reposition it's facing.

[the jeske]

Good luck with an av12 staying alive. I can imagine one being used in 1850 armies , but never as ally and it is as far from auto include as possible for a unit that is not totaly terribad. the arc of fire is too limiting and too easy to exploit by opponents, but the lost of his melee attack hurts even more .

 

And remember you can't put the template outside of helldrakes LoS.

[Excessus]

No, the target unit can't be outside the 45 degrees, but the template can be placed anywhere within 12" as the torrent rule states.

[the jeske]

I may have problems with translation then . The wounds are still model per model even if you shot with a multi hit weapon. You won't be able to allocate wounds to units outside of LoS , so IMO  the helldrake template can't go outside of the 45 degree cone either.

[Sception]

Yeah, you can position the template how you want, but can only allocate wounds to models in the firing arc.

 

Is there a picture that confirms that 'can swivel 45 degrees' means a total 45 degree arc, or can swivel 45 degrees from it's starting position, for a 90 degree total arc?

[Dallas Drake]

I'm pretty sure it's 45 total, so 22.5 left or right from the centre.

 

That's not even the main problem with the Heldrake, it's been reduced in bad-ass but it's still a solid option for flaming ground targets etc if that's what you want or your lists needs, personally I have no real need for that.

 

The problem for me is that as a flyer it really needs a solid AA option, seeing as our other options are overpriced 1) Flakk on Havocs 2) Aegis. 4 x BS3 S8 shots at AP4 doesn't cut it. It needs more guns, more shots or at the very least be AP3 to make it worth it. Has anyone tried to use the Heldrake against Flyrants? It's a joke, they glance it to death in no time & our shots just bounce off them.

 

Plus, it's not cheap. I used to run 2, they were the first models on my list. Now, those 340 points are spent on something else.

 

D

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

Ya as far as I know there's no vertical arc of fire. Sure the drake isn't as good as it use to be, but it's still good. Can't go wrong with a a6, ap3 flamer. It's just not the auto include it use to be. 

 

Under "Vehicles in the Shooting Phase" section, "Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight" subsection: "On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate and swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45˚, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45˚."

 

 

 

I stand corrected. However if you have the head facing down far enough like I do, it shouldn't be a problem. 

[Sception]

I'm pretty sure it's 45 total, so 22.5 left or right from the centre.

It would be nice if there were some confirmation of this somewhere.

 

 

That's not even the main problem with the Heldrake,

It is for me. Not being able to flame ground targets with my flamer is exactly the problem with the heldrake.

 

it's still a solid option for flaming ground targets

not if it can't see them.

Plus, it's not cheap. I used to run 2, they were the first models on my list. Now, those 340 points are spent on something else.

They fall in the same 100 to 200 point range as most units we run that aren't msu cultists.

[the jeske]

 

I stand corrected. However if you have the head facing down far enough like I do, it shouldn't be a problem.

good luck with pulling off that , as modeling for adventage is actualy not possible this edition.

[*Furyou Miko]

sigh. As with the Vendetta, the Heldrake is perfectly capable of pitching up and down on its base as part of the model design. Just tip the damn thing on its base like its designed to be.

 

Anyway, anyone who argues that "you can't point your airplane's nose at the ground" deserves a slap round the back of the head.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

 

I stand corrected. However if you have the head facing down far enough like I do, it shouldn't be a problem.

good luck with pulling off that , as modeling for adventage is actualy not possible this edition.

 

 

I mean just how the model is, if you support the 90 degree arc argument where it's 45 up and 45 down it shouldn't be a problem. 22.5 though it might be. 

 

I agree with Miko though, plus I've never gone up against an opponent who tried to argue the heldrake couldn't hit targets on the ground. 

[Sedekiel]

 

I'm pretty sure it's 45 total, so 22.5 left or right from the centre.

It would be nice if there were some confirmation of this somewhere.

 

 

Arc Sight example number 2 on vehicles and shooting

 

20 inches range with a 45 degree arc of sight is not that bad...I just think we require some time to get used to the new positioning...Still best unit in my book.

[Sception]

It's not the maximum range or horizontal arc that's a problem for me, at least not on their own. It's that combined with the minimum range.

[Warsmith Aznable]

sigh. As with the Vendetta, the Heldrake is perfectly capable of pitching up and down on its base as part of the model design. Just tip the damn thing on its base like its designed to be.

Anyway, anyone who argues that "you can't point your airplane's nose at the ground" deserves a slap round the back of the head.

Wasn't it explicitly stated in 5th or 6th edition somewhere that anything in the horizontal arc could be targeted by flyers for that very reason? Or maybe it was an old FAQ?

I have a wonky digital edition for 7th so it's hard for me to be sure I've seen everything I need to.

I guess the bottom line is that not only will strafing routes need to be planned in advance for positioning, but target units should be somewhere in the middle distance to get as many wounds onto the unit as possible.

It's sad we can't fly straight over units and poop AP3 directly upon their heads anymore...

If I had the wings of a sparrow...

[the jeske]

you do know that if it is ok to move  a model around on its base , then we are opening the hell hole starting with defilers shoting from behind wall and then hiding out of LoS and meq models that are prone on opponent turns and stand up on your own.

[Prot]

I'm not sure I'm following what the big problem is here.

 

I looked up torrent, again. I looked up the FAQ again. Here's what I get from it.

 

I move the Heldrake. I measure 12" out of it's mouth in the arc described by hull mounted weapons. I follow the Torrent rule of making sure the skinny end is closer to the Heldrake than the fat end is. 

 

The only serious difference with the flamer that I see is once I pass over the squad, I can't hit them again. So I pick a new target, or I go into Hover.

 

The downside of Vector is only against ground targets, not flyers. At AP2, and no cover (no jink), it is still D3 against Flyers. 

 

If I've got something wrong here, please let me know. But if the way I'm interpreting this stuff is correct, I still see a lot of value in the Heldrake. But if I'm doing something wrong with it as per the new rules/FAQ, I'd like to know.

[hornywingythingy]

^ wound allocation is the problem, you can't allocate wounds outside the heldrakes los, meaning the torrent has a real limited arc to kill stuff in. Even if you can place the template out of los, you can't wound out of it anymore.

[Sception]

Here's how it works: you move the drake.  Then you determine line of sight from the nozzle of the gun, with 22.5 degrees pivot horizontally and vertically (for a sort of square cone projecting from the gun barrel).  Note in particular, unless your group lets you count as pivoting the plane itself vertically, that the vertical limit is going to give you a minimum line of sight that may be considerably limiting depending on how you've modeled the drake (in the most extreme, if unlikely, case that you've modeled the thing screaming into the sky, be sure to talk to your opponents before using it, because by the rules it could shoot literally nothing).

 

Once you've determined line of sight, determine whether any enemy units are in line of sight and maximum weapon range, and you can fire at that unit.  Once the target is declared place the template according to the torrent rules.  As far as I can tell, line of sight doesn't matter for how the template is placed, it could even be entirely out of line of sight.  With my tablet down, I can't confirm that, though.

 

The template gives you the number of hits, which you must then allocate.  Here's where line of sight comes back in, because unlike blast templates, which are specifically allowed to allocate to models out of range or line of sight (though they still allocate to the closest models), flamer templates allocate according to the normal rules, which means regardless of where the flamer template was placed, wounds are allocated to the closest models within range line of sight.  Again, unless your group is house ruling things, this includes the minimum line of sight from the vertical pivot.  If you should run out of models within range and line of sight, then excess wounds are discarded.