Protecting Yourself

[Joasht]

I've been doing a lot of thinking and Theoryhammering on my new AM army, and am just personally wondering how you guys protect yourself against:

 

1) Fliers

I assume the default would be a bunch of Hydras. I am however, also contemplating the Aegis Defense Line, Vengeance Weapon Batteries, or allying in some fliers (e.g. a Stormtalon).

 

Of course, the other option is to totally ignore them and win the ground war. A somewhat viable strategy, since not all armies bring fliers.

 

2) Deep Strikers

Particularly things like Drop Pod Meltas. My army will be an Armored Company, so understandably this would bother me a little more than people who play with blobs. That said, I'm actually contemplating removing a tank or two to just put in one blob to bubblewrap my tanks. It's quite difficult since I prefer 1500, and points are often pretty tight.

 

Alternatively, I've been thinking of taking Coteaz in a Plasma Vet squad, to light them up as they come down. Would require me to deploy wisely to ensure I have LOS to most, if not all, possible landing sites. It does run the risk of failing to kill the meltagunners, but no plan is perfect :/

 

3) Psykers

Honestly I'm almost tempted to just ignore Psykers. Relic Plating on everything doubles my chances of Denying the Witch for minimal cost, and I might just stop there. While AM does have some "cheap psykers", the problem is:

a) You can only have so many Astropaths, due to limits on how many command squads you'd be taking.

b) Primaris Psykers are cheap'ish, but I can't shake that they are a mere 15 points less than a SM Librarian...and significantly weaker.

c) Dedicated Psychic armies won't care about your handful of extra dice.

 

4) Melee

A little bit less of an issue in my current Armored Company list because I can just back up and blast them on my turn, but I recall back when I used to play my Blood Angels against my cousin's IG....and I'd murder them with almost no chance of reprisal. The easy solution would be to bring enough guns to make it a non-issue (even more so since melee armies are fewer than in earlier editions, e.g. 3rd ed), but I've always liked the idea of having at least one unit on standby to act as a counterattacking force.

 

I've contemplated taking either SM allies (probably a bikelord with a full unit of bikes, enabling me to also have two combat squaded superscoring units; would also enable me to take the aforementioned Stormtalon for flier protection) or GK allies (Coteaz for the aforementioned Deepstrike protection, and probably a unit of superscoring GK Terminators).

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts on the matters above; whether it be comments on my thoughts, or your own thoughts/how you usually tackle these issues.

 

Thanks!

[David Ravel]

As I play ABG most of the time, those are my ideas on the subject :

 

1) Hydras. When I ally with IG, I play Hydra Platform (cheaper) since now the Hydra doesn't have the ''ignore jink'' rule anymore in the IG codex. But I was too tempted with the Defense Batterys and what not. I will definitivly try it in the next weeks and see how it goes. 

 

2) Deep strikers. I try to have a saturation of target to minimize the impact of such strategy. Also, I always deploy with my back (and if I can) my side of my main tanks (LR, Destroyer, etc.) with the board edge or chimeras to secure them. I like chimeras with autocannon turret and autocannon inside. It can help grab two different objectives in late game with the Obj Secured rule (even if our Leman Russ also have the rule hehe). Coteaz would be a good idea also. If you can kill a couple of guy / kill the melta and finish the rest with him and his squad the next turn, it can be very effective. I play Coteaz with my normal IG, but I never tried it with my ABG. I will do now that I think of it. 

 

3) Totally ignore them. They can't do much to tank, and I wouldn't be able to have enough psyker to disrupt benediction anyway. 

 

4) That's a big problem, especially when demons fly/deepstrike near you, or those maulerfiends move 12'' per turn with cover ignoring terrain. I still have some problems with this. I guess having more bodies spread out on the board to get clear line of shot if they fail/wreck one tank is one thing. It's probably the main reason why I'm building a Knight : as a counter-charge threat. Getting GK allies would not be a bad idea. They can help you with the psyker thing, can dish pain on deepstriker, and even if they are not a dedicated close combat army, they are still good marines with possibile power weapons, which could stop some foes before they charge your big stuff. 

[PureFodder]

1) A vendetta or two as they're still nice and cheap in the ABG list. Their main drawback is that you can only take 0-1 squadron. I'm also considering purchasing a Thunderbolt as it frees up that slot for a Vulture (plus the thunderbolt looks fantastic). Hydras are also fine as again, they use the ABG rules and retain their closed top and auto-targeting rule.

 

2) I usually just spread out and accept that drop pod melta is going to have a field day. Coteaz in a chimera with 5 Jokaeros is a nice deterrent though. Remember that if you get to use his 'I've been expecting you' rule and you kill 25%+ of an opponents squad in their movement phase - they have to take a morale test at the end of the movement phase and may be forced to fall back before they even get to fire.

 

3) I shoot them with tanks.

 

4) flying MCs now have to change flight modes before they can charge, so wait till they land then insert beast-hunter shells. Against the massed hordes - its basically a question of gunning them down faster than they can move forwards. If Lords of War are acceptable (I assume this list is for more competitive play as bringing an ABG to a friendly game isn't very friendly) then a Malcador Infernus is a perfect answer as assault tends to force your opponent to bunch-up, especially as they can't consolidate after destroying a vehicle in combat.

[WarriorFish]

1) Fliers
I chiefly ignore them, they can seldom do that much to a Guard army as you have the numbers to carry on. We also have the fire power to throw at them if we choose to, but as you said they don't always turn up! A Vendetta will blast them out of the sky nicely though, but I'll be trying my Hydras out once they're finished :)

2) Deep Strikers
Keeping to cover, limiting landing areas and infantry escorts plus count attack units. It works very well, it only takes a few deep striking units to whiff and get annihilated for opponents to start thinking twice

3) Psykers
Witches are just another unit to kill. I've yet to find a psyker who can cast powers after being blasted to pieces

4) Melee
Whittle them down to size and manage their depleted units as they arrive - this is why numbers is key as it lets you weather the hits and respond. Just like the anti-deep strikers let them come and throw themselves against your infantry, then pounce. Nobody can win if they exchange all their best pieces for pawns

[*Furyou Miko]

Bearing in mind that as an Elysian player, I'm not sure how much this will help you, here's my answers;

 

 

1) Fliers - Not a problem, I generally blast them out of the sky with Vendettas or Avengers.

 

2) Deep Strikers - I let them do their thing and try not to present them with targets of opportunity. Also, careful use of devastating defensive deep strikes ensures that while my enemy may have complete first strike domination, their strikes will mostly be at air while my retaliatory abilities are second to none.

 

3) Psykers - Drop bombs on them. I haven't really seen anyone else build an army round psychic powers though.

 

4) Melee - I abuse the heck out of MSU to avoid losing too much to any one combat. I never blob, I use lots of special weapons teams. Oh, and only put boots on the ground with specific missions - take this objective or kill that unit. The rest of the time, my army stays safely ensconsed in its valkyries.

[Kilofix]

1) If I expect lots of enemy fliers - I use a Firestorm Redoubt fortification. Otherwise I may use a single Vulture or just ignore

 

2) If they have Drop Pod Melta - I either keep my Armor in Reserve or I bunch up my Armor and surround them with Infantry

 

3) If I expect lots of enemy psykers - I ally in Inquisitor Karamazov and Psyk Bomb them. I also sometimes Deep Strike Storm Troopers with Flamers or use Hellhounds. Otherwise I just ignore.

 

4) If I expect light Infantry - like stuff without close combat Str 6+ and without Rending / Armorbane - I tie them up with Armored Sentinels. If I expect heavy Infantry, I'll tarpit with cheap guard blobs with no upgrades

[Bionicman]

4) That's a big problem, especially when demons fly/deepstrike near you, or those maulerfiends move 12'' per turn with cover ignoring terrain. I still have some problems with this. I guess having more bodies spread out on the board to get clear line of shot if they fail/wreck one tank is one thing. It's probably the main reason why I'm building a Knight : as a counter-charge threat. Getting GK allies would not be a bad idea. They can help you with the psyker thing, can dish pain on deepstriker, and even if they are not a dedicated close combat army, they are still good marines with possibile power weapons, which could stop some foes before they charge your big stuff. 

If you are referring to "Warp Quake" - not anymore. That got faq'd. And a single strike squad is 100 + 25 for the cheapest hq and another 100+ for a second mandatory troop choice. 225 points for 2 WC and 10 3+ 1A I4 dudes, i don't know. Sure they will kill other marines but you really want hammerhand or force to make them work.

 

Another option would be taking inquisition instead. You get death cult assassins for 15 a piece an a lvl 1 psyker for ten. They kill so much more. Plus all the other henchman like 3++ crusaders, or acolythes with flamer/melta/plasma for 14 piece or arco's if you really want a lot of attacks. Mandatory points: 25+ 2x12. ;)

[librisrouge]

If you're afraid of melee then look no further than the Imperial Knight. They're fast, hard hitting, and thematically appropriate for IG. Best of all, they make the enemy start worrying and your melee for once .

[David Ravel]

4) That's a big problem, especially when demons fly/deepstrike near you, or those maulerfiends move 12'' per turn with cover ignoring terrain. I still have some problems with this. I guess having more bodies spread out on the board to get clear line of shot if they fail/wreck one tank is one thing. It's probably the main reason why I'm building a Knight : as a counter-charge threat. Getting GK allies would not be a bad idea. They can help you with the psyker thing, can dish pain on deepstriker, and even if they are not a dedicated close combat army, they are still good marines with possibile power weapons, which could stop some foes before they charge your big stuff.

If you are referring to "Warp Quake" - not anymore. That got faq'd. And a single strike squad is 100 + 25 for the cheapest hq and another 100+ for a second mandatory troop choice. 225 points for 2 WC and 10 3+ 1A I4 dudes, i don't know. Sure they will kill other marines but you really want hammerhand or force to make them work.

Another option would be taking inquisition instead. You get death cult assassins for 15 a piece an a lvl 1 psyker for ten. They kill so much more. Plus all the other henchman like 3++ crusaders, or acolythes with flamer/melta/plasma for 14 piece or arco's if you really want a lot of attacks. Mandatory points: 25+ 2x12.

Damn. I like the model lol.

[Thunderhawk3015]

I deal with all of the issues listed by being mobile.  My force is, and will remain for the future, as mechanized regiment.  Any flyers/annoying things that show up get eaten by my Thunderbolt or Vendetta. 

[march10k]

I think taking platforms that have the "ignores jink" (only because they haven't received the update!) is borderline cheating.  I certainly wouldn't let hydra platforms ignore jink in my games...wait, I don't use bikes or skimmers...and almost never use fliers.  But that's clearly an abuse.

 

1.  Fliers.  Bring fliers of your own or hydras.  The nice thing about headquarters tanks is that you don't have to choose between hydras and tanks any more.  OTOH, a vendetta is a NASTY air superiority fighter.  You pay as much for un-twin-linked lascannons on the ground as you pay for flying twinlinked ones, it's a no-brainer!  

 

2.  Mostly, they'll drop in no later than turn three.  I only have one thing I want to protect (pask's squadron), so when I have a deepstriker problem, I put a troop screen in front (to avoid blocking LOS) and a chimera on the open flank (pask in the corner), and the chimera doesn't get to move till the DSers have landed.  Honestly, though, they tend to drop behind my advancing demolishers, and that's fine with me.  It's me dictating to them, them reacting to the threat I'm presenting.  They get their one shot to pop the demolisher, then they die.  Worst case, it's a tie, very few high-success-rate deepstriking melta platforms cost less than a demolisher.  And so I got them to hang back out of demolisher range till the tank was dead AND traded their fire brigade for a unit of my own on my terms.  And that's worst case.  The actual killing done by my pair of demolishers rarely wins me games, but the way that they reorganize the enemy's priorities frequently does.

 

3.  Honestly, there's nothing you can do.  Even if you have 17+D6 warp charges (you won't, that's a daemons psycher sellout army) against his lonely ML2 psycher, you don't have enough warp charges to reliably prevent him from casting his one power per turn.  So ignore them.  Or shoot them.

 

4.  Ya know, there's a support group for that, it's called "everyone," they meet at the bar.   The key to success in 40k is to shoot the assaulty units and assault the shooty units.  Guess what?  You're flush in shooting and have ZERO assault.  Sure, you can piece something together, have straken and some 50+priest blobs, but that's really stretching things, and it's selling out your strengths to try to be something you're not.  Here's what you do:  Shoot them.  Nobody but nobody dakkas like the guard.  

[Andhil]

Melee? I use Bullgryns. Just yesterday I played Vs. Orks, and a unit of 6 Bullgryns and a Priest held off 3 units of 'Ard Boys, killing off 1, and sending the next running with 2 guys left, and a full squad of Nobs. Our game didn't get finished, but that combat lasted for 3 Fight phases. On the other side of the board I'd already wiped his entire left flank, with my Air Cav running rampant. I love the Guard!

(On that note, the War Hymn that let's you re-roll Saves is awesome. I literally didn't lose a single wound to the regular boyz, only the PK's put a dent in them.)

[march10k]

  Yeah, but bullgryns cost as much as a land raider...blech!  As awesome as they are, they're at least 30% overpriced.

[Frater Cornelius]

Why take Bullgryns when you can take a lot of dakka for their price and shoot the boys of the field.

[Andhil]

They're boys with a 4+ save. It takes a lot, and I mean a LOT more to shoot them of the board. Again they held off a total of 51 'Ard Boys, 10 Nobs (also with Eavy armor), a Mek and a Warboss. Which also means that they were out of the game, allowing my shooty stuff to target other stuff. These Bullgryns have proven more useful than extra firepower. People underestimate the tar pitting ability they have.

Today they again held off a Bloodthirster for 3 game turns. Which doesn't sound too impressive, but when there's 4 other FMC's running rampant, then I'd gladly take the Bullgryns over anything else in the IG dex.

And to be honest, there's the psychological effect of beating the Orks(/ CC armies) at their own game.

My group costs 350pts, which is peanuts when playing at 3-4K. You boys may have your skirmishes. Let the men fight the real wars.

[Frater Cornelius]

Demolisher, Eradicator, Chimeras with either HB or HF and AC will take them out for the most part until they get into threat range.

[Andhil]

True, I could use all of those things, but there's also the matter of avoiding a tailored list as I play with friends.

Eradicator is the biggest one there, the Chimera's aren't that effective, Autocannons don't have enough shots and with even the tiniest amount of cover you're losing your biggest advantage, which is saturation.

and Heavy Flamers....My friend. When you get to use your Heavy Flamer, you are within threat range, and it's too late.

Also, taking them out "for the most part" isn't enough. Even 5 Boys geared for CC can tear up an Infantry squad.

Either way, any combination of those weapons (to the limit of 350pts) wouldn't have been able to tarpit, and basically demolish (as I was winning, it was really quite a sad sight, like clubbing a baby seal.) those 51 Ard Boys and 10 Nobs. And that really makes me happy I bought 6 Bullgryns! Abhumans!

I can see how they're not fit for every list, but my mixed army can really use them, and they've never proven me wrong.

[march10k]

I certainly agree that there's a place for 350 points worth of bullgryns at the 3000 point level!  I really fail to see how anyone could deny that.  However, at more traditional points levels (and I did have a nice 3k game last month, it's nice to have an opportunity to bring the kitchen sink without worrying about points costs), they don't work.  And I'll have your tongue, knave, if you malign the chimera again.  65 points apiece for AV12 superscorers with 6 heavy shots each?  What could be better?

[Andhil]

Chimera's certainly rock. I won't deny that, but in the particular case discussed above, other options were better. But it is fun to know that the best APC is safely in the hands of the Guard!

[Skabfang]

I always wonder with threads like this, how many of the naysayers have tried it?

 

You can't just say "this won't work" just because stats don't look good.

 

Imo this is what makes the best additions to a list. I guarantee that the orks player thought the same thing about your bullgryns... What can they really do?

 

Then he realised too late that they were dead killy. Then he was scared and realised it and had to over commit to shift them.

 

Good job, this is exactly what 40k should be about, there's too much rock paper scissors these days.

 

Put down something tough, make them panic, then steam roll them with the other 3/4 of your army at your leisure

[Emperors Immortals]

I've only started guard recently, so thankyou all for the tips, especially that run down by march10k.

 

I'm wondering about using ogryns as a moving screen - there tough enough to take the punishment and provide a save to advancing infantry units, can I join a priest to them? Anyway, I just like the models and want to use them.

 

Also for what its worth, imusing DS scions to neuter SM assault units. 2 units can take out a rhino and kill most occupants or decimate a jump squad while there midfield, suppose it could work for psykers etc. too.

[Andhil]

I currently prefer Bullgryns over Ogryns due to their improved save, as my Ogryns always got shot to hell by Dark Eldar. Ap5 Poison weapons are mean.

But yes, you can use Ogryns for this, although the Slabshield Bullgryns provide bonus cover to your infantrymen so would be better suited to act as a moving screen.

And yes, you can add a Priest to Ogryns/Bullgryns as they're an Independent character and in the new codex they are affected by the Priest's abilities, unlike the previous codex, when they weren't smart enough to understand the Priest's rhetoric.

[march10k]

They still aren't. He gets around this by promising candy to the one with the most kills!

[Emperors Immortals]

They still aren't. He gets around this by promising candy to the one with the most kills!

......there has to be a priest joke there somewhere ;)

[march10k]

Sadly, clerics of all faiths are equally likely to offend, and equally likely to cover it up but the press seems to have a hard-on for Catholics. ~shrug~ c'est la vie.