Conjurations not for all

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

RAW, the psychic phase is not basic rules.

 

Then show me a *single* Army List Entry that states "Psychic Phase".

 

I think I'm done here.

 

The RAW is clear, there hasn't been a single bit of rulebook posted to support the opinion that;

 

1) Units summoned from Codex: Daemons, don't count as being units from Codex: Daemons.

2) Summoned units don't follow the Ally relationships the *entire* games uses.

 

Sure, call it yet *another* rule oversite by GW.  But I'm getting downright tired by that excuse.

 

The rules don't work the way people expect.

 

/shrug

[Teetengee]

Come the Apoc allies are allowed to move within 12" (although keep in mind the one eye open rule). They are deploying via deepstrike. Then they are placed on the table as summoned. Spell works fine.

[Raeven]

That might be the distinction we have been missing. They are being summoned. Although it uses the same mechanic as deploying can, the unit is not by pure definition deploying.

[Kristoff]

That might be the distinction we have been missing. They are being summoned. Although it uses the same mechanic as deploying can, the unit is not by pure definition deploying.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

Summoned units arrive via Deep Strike. Deep Strike is a method of deploying, and even uses that specific word "deploy" as the same verb as the Alliance rating uses.

 

Therefore, it IS deploying by as pure a definition as it can get.

[Ozshock]

deep strike is not deploying...putting them in reserve is deploying

 

deep strike happens in the movement phase so it is a movement...not deployment

[Kristoff]

deep strike is not deploying...putting them in reserve is deploying

 

deep strike happens in the movement phase so it is a movement...not deployment

Deep Strike is not deployment, but it is deploying. Please reread the Deep Strike rules and count how many times "deploy" and it's conjugations show up in it.

 

Placing a unit in Reserves is not deploying, even though it IS done in deployment. Arriving from Reserves also is also listed as deploying.

 

Deploying is the act of placing a unit on the board. Deployment is a game setup phase. Do not confuse the two.

[Raeven]

 

That might be the distinction we have been missing. They are being summoned. Although it uses the same mechanic as deploying can, the unit is not by pure definition deploying.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

Summoned units arrive via Deep Strike. Deep Strike is a method of deploying, and even uses that specific word "deploy" as the same verb as the Alliance rating uses.

 

Therefore, it IS deploying by as pure a definition as it can get.

 

Same way GL is saying they can't deploy within 12" because Basic vs. Advanced.  I made it up because it sounds good.

 

All I need is the rules specifically saying they arrive via deep strike within x".  The rules say that.  Should be end of discussion.  

[Gentlemanloser]

Made it up?

and is treated as arriving from reserves for all rules purposes

Via the deep strike rules.

Arriving from reserves is deploying.

Nothing made up, all RAW.

Edit:

And agian, I have continually (like the forum rules state) backed up my stance by book quotes and entries. Unlike the other side of the discussion, which is nothing but pure speculation and personal opinion on how people would like the rules to work.

[Dam13n]

Play nicely please!

[Raeven]

Made it up?

and is treated as arriving from reserves for all rules purposes

Via the deep strike rules.

Arriving from reserves is deploying.

Nothing made up, all RAW.

Edit:

And agian, I have continually (like the forum rules state) backed up my stance by book quotes and entries. Unlike the other side of the discussion, which is nothing but pure speculation and personal opinion on how people would like the rules to work.

Uh huh. So where in the rulebook does it say that the Psychic phase and powers fall under Basic rules? Passage and page number please?

[Brother Casman]

So, pure RAW has led us to a contradiction when summoning daemons by a Come-the-Apocalypse ally. This tells me we've got a flaw in our thinking somewhere.

 

I would think that the intent is obvious - the power is supposed to work, so we should probably ignore the "can't deploy within 12 inches" restriction when summoning daemons. Narratively, I would keep the "One Eye Open" rule, though. I would be very cautious around the Fell Powers of the Warp, though it might not do me any good.

[Gentlemanloser]

Uh huh. So where in the rulebook does it say that the Psychic phase and powers fall under Basic rules? Passage and page number please?

 

The quote I've already quoted that states advanced rules a unit has are listed on thier Army List Entry.

 

Edit: For completness;

 

 

 

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry

 

You need to show at least a single Army List Entry that lists "The Psychic Phase" for the Psychic Phase rules to be classed as Advanced.

 

Besides, it maters *not a single jot* if the Psychic Phase rules are Advanced.  As so are the Ally rules.

 

The Psychic Phase rules state summoned units arrive from reserves by Deep Strike.  For all rules purposes.

 

Arriving from reserves, by Deep Strike is deploying.

 

Come the Apocalypse Allies cannot deploy within 12" of another Come the Apocalpyse unit.

 

*You* need to show one of two things;

 

1) Summoned Deamons from Codex: Choas Daemons are *not* Faction: Chaos Daemons

2) Summoned units do not follow the Ally rules

 

So far, there has been zero evidence of either.

 

Only opinion and conjecture that summoned units class as the same faction as the summoner.  Which has no basis in the rules.

[Teetengee]

I don't have the brb with me right now but I think the answer to whether there is a raw problem may be found in the exact wording of the allies rules. The come the apoc restriction may be limited to the deployment phase or refer to deployment not deploying? (I am not sure, but if that is the case, then there is no problem as the daemons aren't being deployed during deployment.) When someone gets the chance, the exact wording of that section would probably be helpful.

[Raeven]

 

Uh huh. So where in the rulebook does it say that the Psychic phase and powers fall under Basic rules? Passage and page number please?

The quote I've already quoted that states advanced rules a unit has are listed on thier Army List Entry.

 

Edit: For completness;

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry

You need to show at least a single Army List Entry that lists "The Psychic Phase" for the Psychic Phase rules to be classed as Advanced.

 

Besides, it maters *not a single jot* if the Psychic Phase rules are Advanced. As so are the Ally rules.

 

The Psychic Phase rules state summoned units arrive from reserves by Deep Strike. For all rules purposes.

 

Arriving from reserves, by Deep Strike is deploying.

 

Come the Apocalypse Allies cannot deploy within 12" of another Come the Apocalpyse unit.

 

*You* need to show one of two things;

 

1) Summoned Deamons from Codex: Choas Daemons are *not* Faction: Chaos Daemons

2) Summoned units do not follow the Ally rules

 

So far, there has been zero evidence of either.

 

Only opinion and conjecture that summoned units class as the same faction as the summoner. Which has no basis in the rules.

I don't need to prove an argument I didn't make. The rules clearly state that summoned units deep strike within x inches. This does not contradict the allies rule deployment rule, because summoned units are not an "allied" detachment. If they are, please show me where in the book it states such.

 

Btw, the special rule that each model lists to qualify for the psychic phase is Psyker, or brotherhood of sorcerers/psykers. The only reason it matters is because that was your only argument to counter my original position.

[Gentlemanloser]

They don't need to be an allied detachment (The CtA rules also work in Unbound, and BF armies using only CADs).

 

All units in the game, regardless of detachments (see unbound) work using the Faction relationships.

 

Summoned Daemons are Faction Chaos Demaons, and follow all the relationship levels for other units in the same army.

 

 

 

Btw, the special rule that each model lists to qualify for the psychic phase is Psyker, or brotherhood of sorcerers/psykers. The only reason it matters is because that was your only argument to counter my original position.          

 

And as a Special Rule, Psyker is an Advanced rule.

 

The rules for the Psychic Phase, however, are not.

 

The Psychic Phase is totally seperate to the Psyker special rule.  As seen by any unit being able to Deny the Witch.

[Raeven]

Ok.  Let's start over then.  Obviously, none of the other arguments are going to hold traction with you.  Let's re-examine the original argument.

 

 

Come the Apocalypse says, Units that will only ally "CtA" are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.

 

 

There are two parts to this sentence.  A condition and a qualifier.  

Part 1.  Condition.

Cannot deploy within 12" of each other.

Part 2.  Qualifier.

When they are deploying for battle.

 

So what does, "when they are deploying for battle" mean?  The word "they" encompasses all units involved.  So all units involved must be deploying for battle in order for this restriction to be enforced.  Agree?  

 

If this rule refers to the act of deploying together, units that are already on the board are already deployed and as such don't face the restriction of a 12" deployment.  This would include turn 2 deep strikers, deep striking near an already on the board unit, and summoned units that have to be on the board in order to summon Daemons.

 

Under this reading, it changes my position on the last argument of whether deep striking units on turn 2 could deep strike with 12" of CtA units already on the table.  This still prevents two units deep striking the same turn from doing so within 12" of each other, but it does not prevent a deep striking unit from doing so within the range limit of CtA and DespA that are already on the board.

[Teetengee]

Sounds correct to me Raeven. As a side note, I imagine they would all continue to suffer from one eye open (not that we were really debating that).

[Kristoff]

*You* need to show one of two things;

 

1) Summoned Deamons from Codex: Choas Daemons are *not* Faction: Chaos Daemons.

2) Summoned units do not follow the Ally rules.

There is one other way, and that the specifics of the spell override the limitation due its own range, even when not specifically stating thus. I do believe that this was the intention, over all. However, it is not specifically written as such, and not for the first time.

 

Ok. Let's start over then. Obviously, none of the other arguments are going to hold traction with you. Let's re-examine the original argument.

 

 

Come the Apocalypse says, Units that will only ally "CtA" are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.

 

 

There are two parts to this sentence. A condition and a qualifier.

Part 1. Condition.

Cannot deploy within 12" of each other.

Part 2. Qualifier.

When they are deploying for battle.

 

So what does, "when they are deploying for battle" mean? The word "they" encompasses all units involved. So all units involved must be deploying for battle in order for this restriction to be enforced. Agree?

 

If this rule refers to the act of deploying together, units that are already on the board are already deployed and as such don't face the restriction of a 12" deployment. This would include turn 2 deep strikers, deep striking near an already on the board unit, and summoned units that have to be on the board in order to summon Daemons.

 

Under this reading, it changes my position on the last argument of whether deep striking units on turn 2 could deep strike with 12" of CtA units already on the table. This still prevents two units deep striking the same turn from doing so within 12" of each other, but it does not prevent a deep striking unit from doing so within the range limit of CtA and DespA that are already on the board.

The downside to this is that the word "deploy" used in every other case in the rulebook is used as "placing units on the board", not as referencing a specific phase.

 

Also, a unit in any type of reserves, whether Reserves or awaiting Conjuring, is not involved in the battle at all, save as a possible future threat.

[Gentlemanloser]

Heh.  The ambiguity of the rules has me siding on the other side of the argument to the one I was on in the other thread.

 

I think I'll leave it with;

 

 

 

True, but what is the plurality referring to? Multiple units deploying at the same time, or the two factions that are CtA with each other. Either one is a legitimate reading.

 

GW need to clarify the 'they'.

[Raeven]

 

The downside to this is that the word "deploy" used in every other case in the rulebook is used as "placing units on the board", not as referencing a specific phase.

 

Also, a unit in any type of reserves, whether Reserves or awaiting Conjuring, is not involved in the battle at all, save as a possible future threat.

 

 

I'm not referencing any specific phase either...well, other than as examples.  The CtA restriction implies that all units involved are deploying.  It infers no such restriction on units deploying next to units already on the board from a previous phase. (edited to add)

 

It isn't a tight interpretation by any means.  The use of "they" can be read a number of ways.  I think it is the only plausible interpretation that doesn't cause the rules to implode on themselves with arguments such as this.

 

I'm still of the mind that the Psychic rules allow for the exception to the CtA rule, but this line of reasoning neatly wraps up any objections.

[Kristoff]

I'm not referencing any specific phase either...well, other than as examples. The CtA restriction implies that all units involved are deploying. It infers no such restriction on units deploying next to units already on the board from a previous phase. (edited to add)

 

It isn't a tight interpretation by any means. The use of "they" can be read a number of ways. I think it is the only plausible interpretation that doesn't cause the rules to implode on themselves with arguments such as this.

By your own argument you are referencing a specific phase, as there is only one phase where models of an army are deployed together.

 

And the Alliance rules do not specify only deploying together, just a range when deploying. It's not a limit on what is there, but only what is being specifically placed at that time.

[Raeven]

No Kristoff, again, I'm not referencing any specific phase.  It's a scenario that is possible pretty much the entire game.

 

Units can deploy together during the deployment phase.

 

During Turn 2, 3, 4 Reserves rolls units deploy together.

 

Outflanking units can deploy together.

 

Multiple summoned units in the Psychic phase deploy together.

[Kristoff]

No Kristoff, again, I'm not referencing any specific phase. It's a scenario that is possible pretty much the entire game.

 

Units can deploy together during the deployment phase.

 

During Turn 2, 3, 4 Reserves rolls units deploy together.

 

Outflanking units can deploy together.

 

Multiple summoned units in the Psychic phase deploy together.

Not quite, one must always be placed first, and that includes the Deployment Phase, by simple logistics, if nothing else. The only time more than one unit is deployed at the same time involves ICs and/or Transports, which is only possible with Battle Brothers at most.

[Raeven]

I consider happening in the same phase, regardless of order, as happening at the same time.  Same logic that follows with character upgrades in units.  As long as things are legal at the end, route to the end doesn't matter.

[Kristoff]

I consider happening in the same phase, regardless of order, as happening at the same time. Same logic that follows with character upgrades in units. As long as things are legal at the end, route to the end doesn't matter.

That's fine, except the game doesn't work that way, and even less this edition than before.

 

All deployment doesn't always happen at the same time as there is Infiltration which requires it to happen after the standard deployment is complete. Scouting is also a redeployment which, by definition, happens after.

 

When moving units, you only have to deal with where units are during each individual unit's movement, not how they move all together.

 

A Deep Striking unit may only succeed in landing where units are at the beginning of a phase, not where and how they move after.

 

Not all shooting is done at the same time by a unit any more. A second unit can cut down a unit that started the phase in a transport.

 

Charging can cause a unit to be cut down by overwatch, and leave another charger unaffectable.

 

So, no, as much as you'd like, things in a phase do not happen at the same, per the rules as written.