Callidus assassin question.

[Silverson]

Hi,

I played a game today against a callidus assassin and a few interesting questions came up and I was hoping you could inform me of what is correct as we couldn't.

 

1 Firstly can the assassins polymorphine attack hit a flying monstrous creature in flying mode(in this case a daemon prince)

2 Does the attack remove cover saves if it is a close combat attack? And is it a close combat attack. In this case a jinked shrouded 2+

3 If it is a close combat attack does it cause instant death via the c'tan phase sword.

 

Thanks for your help

[IndigoJack]

1) This one is tricky, as it's not a shooting attack, so you don't snap fire it. I would probably go no, as it seems GW is against things that hit flyers and FMCs automatically. Not really sure about this one though.

2) There is nothing about polymorphine that mentions it works like a close combat attack, nor is there anything that says it ignores cover.

3) Polymorphine is an effect that happens when the assassin arrives from reserves. It's d6 S4 AP2 automatic hits. Note, the phase sword is AP3, so it's clearly not from that.

 

It seems that either someone was trying to swindle you, or has a poor understanding of how the rules work. In the future, I'd ask to see a codex for the rules if something weird like this pops up again.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

1 Firstly can the assassins polymorphine attack hit a flying monstrous creature in flying mode(in this case a daemon prince)

 

Well lets look at the wording:

 

'When the Callidus Assassin arrives from reserve, choose an enemy unit. The chosen unit immediately takes D6 Strength 4 AP2 hits. The Callidus is then placed anywhere within 3" of that unit using the Deep Strike rules, but does not scatter"

pg. 53, Codex: Grey Knights

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Its not a shooting or close-combat attack. You won't get armour saves against it, but it doesn't ignore cover or invulnerable saves, so you can still roll either of those against it. 

2 Does the attack remove cover saves if it is a close combat attack? And is it a close combat attack. In this case a jinked shrouded 2+

 

Yeah you get your cover save against it. Probably shouldn't choose a Nurgle Prince then if you're the one playing the Callidus ;)

3 If it is a close combat attack does it cause instant death via the c'tan phase sword.

 

No, because all the effect says is it inflicts D6 S4 AP2 hits on the chosen target. It does not use the Assassins profile or wargear, its just an effect she generates arriving from reserve. 

[Captain Coolpants]

To me, it auto hits any unit, but the thing is when the book was written, flyers were fast skimmers because it's a 5th ed book. But as no ammendments have been made, then there is no other way of interpreting it, so the hits will auto hit fliers. And as it doesn't say ignores cover, then cover saves are allowed haha

Also it's certainly not a cc attack, it's essentially a special movement attack (because deepstrike is kinda the models movement)

 

 

 

But now that that's cleared... Why would you use this assassin?? It's terrible! She basically has to deploy 3" away from a squad, as she arrives using deepstrike rules, she can't assault, and her weapon is mostly useless on anything with marine leadership. So she's 145pts just to kill a handful of models that aren't worth the cost of her own points.

Bow if she could assault the turn she deploys.... That'd be a whole different story! Would be a character killer then :-P

[Gentlemanloser]

Do the FAQs still have the line about attacks that don't roll to hit can't hit Fliers?  Or did that disaapear with 7th?

[Silverson]

Thanks for the reply's guys, it was only a friendly game so we weren't to bothered as we were both trying new things, when it came up for this rule we just agreed that it could hit and that it was a close combat attack because in the sentence about the attack I think it says "only appears when it is time to strike"so we read it as a strike which emplys it's cc . But as you guys have quite rightly pointed out it does not specifically says it is a cc attack, I think we will treat it as an effect rather than an attack for the purpose of cc or shooting. We didn't say it caused instant death but after the game we thought it was a possibility and so I thought I'd ask.

 

Sadly for me in this particular game since I didn't get my cover save I took wounds, failed my grounding test then got shot and killed shortly after woods. The reason he had to go for the daemon prince because I was playing a strange mech list of all vehicles and the 1 daemon prince which left him little for it to target.

 

As for the reason he brought it in the first place. It's because we are both relatively new to the game and he is definitely new to grey knights, but also we like to try things out for ourselves to try and see just how good/bad units are

 

Thanks again for your reply's much appreciated

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Do the FAQs still have the line about attacks that don't roll to hit can't hit Fliers?  Or did that disaapear with 7th?

 

 

Probably gone. i know people have been hitting Flyers with 'Objurum Mechanicum', so I assume its not longer an issue. Double check though

Sadly for me in this particular game since I didn't get my cover save I took wounds, failed my grounding test then got shot and killed shortly after woods. The reason he had to go for the daemon prince because I was playing a strange mech list of all vehicles and the 1 daemon prince which left him little for it to target. 

 

Fair enough. It's a pretty meh ability anyway, because it allows cover it often barely kills 1-2 models on a good day. 

As for the reason he brought it in the first place. It's because we are both relatively new to the game and he is definitely new to grey knights, but also we like to try things out for ourselves to try and see just how good/bad units are

 

Sadly, all the Assassins have been hit hard by the meta-game. S6/7 spam annihilates them before they can do much. The only one with Infiltrate (and therefore Outflank) is the Vindicare, but he's the super-sniper and all the others are either short-range shooting or melee focused. 

 

They're fun, don't get me wrong, but you'll often just sigh as you take them off the board Turn 1 or 2, without them killing a thing. 

[Silverson]

yer it does seem assassins have taken a hit, we are going to play another game tonight since we realised we made a hole lot more mistakes when it come to the grey knights psychic powers as well so i tink we may just do a rematch of our lists maybe changing a few small bits but nothing to much. 

 

thanks again guys 

[Jakbal]

yer it does seem assassins have taken a hit, we are going to play another game tonight since we realised we made a hole lot more mistakes when it come to the grey knights psychic powers as well so i tink we may just do a rematch of our lists maybe changing a few small bits but nothing to much. 

 

thanks again guys 

 

My brother and I do this sometimes.  Play the same match twice (small adjustments only to address major imbalances / rule misinterpretations).  It is always interesting to see how each adjusts their tactics for the 2nd match.

[Silverson]

Hi guys,

Sorry for more questions but we are new :)

Where it says grey knights know banishment and ironhand in the FAQ, does that mean they still get to roll a power on a discipline ? If so what happens if they roll the same power they already know?

[Grand Master Caloth]

Nom the ones who are able to generate powers specifically spell out what disciplines. The other ones only know the powers listed

[Silverson]

Oh :( so the dreadnight can't luck out and get precognition 2 games in a row?. That's sad I found that hilariously hard to scratch because my opponent rolled it .

[march10k]

Waitaminit! IIRC, cover saves are explicitly only available against hits from shooting...if that's true, then there would be no cover save against polymorphine. I vaguely remember the connection between cover and shooting from looking up whether a model (gee, a nurgle DP, go figure...those need a nerf, they're obviously being spammed for being OP) got cover against thunderblitz.

[IndigoJack]

There is nothing under the rules for cover that states that you can only take them from shooting. And while it isn't exactly evidence, the fact that there are attacks that wound outside the shooting phase that explicitly state that they ignore cover (vector strikes, attacks in assualt) are a good indication that unless otherwise stated, you can get cover from attacks in the movement phase.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Where it says grey knights know banishment and ironhand in the FAQ, does that mean they still get to roll a power on a discipline ? If so what happens if they roll the same power they already know?

No, because the FAQ clearly states they simply start the game knowing those powers. The main rulebook makes it clear that not all psykers generate their powers (or even all of them), some just know certain powers by default.

Oh so the dreadnight can't luck out and get precognition 2 games in a row?. That's sad I found that hilariously hard to scratch because my opponent rolled it .

Your opponent is cheating. Dreadknights have 'Hammerhand' (utterly useless, as they're always S10) 'Banishment' (only good against Daemons) and 'Force' (god-tier on an already scary melee unit, if they don't kill you before you swing you generally evapourate whatever you touch). They're already strong as hell, they are only balanced by being expensive and having a terrible invul.

Waitaminit! IIRC, cover saves are explicitly only available against hits from shooting...if that's true, then there would be no cover save against polymorphine. I vaguely remember the connection between cover and shooting from looking up whether a model (gee, a nurgle DP, go figure...those need a nerf, they're obviously being spammed for being OP) got cover against thunderblitz.

Polymorphine is not a close-combat attack, nor does it have the 'Ignore Cover' special rule. You can take cover saves against explosion damage from a vehicle (isn't a shooting attack either), as another example.

Anyway, its all kinda moot, as the Callidus doesn't do much damage before she dies. If you were able to charge on the turn you appear, things would be different, but GW have decided that you can't forge a narrative where your Assassins do anything :( . Back on the shelf sadly.

[Captain Coolpants]

It's such a shame. Way back, when I first started and didn't read the rules properly, I used to assault the same turn she arrived, and she was pretty good as a character killer (which is what all assassins are supposed to be). But after realising that her gun is poo, and then that she can't actually assault when she arrives... Literally makes her a waste of 145 points.

The only viable assassin is the sniper!

[Gentlemanloser]

Her previous incarnation could do that.  And she was the best Assassin out of the four.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Her previous incarnation could do that.  And she was the best Assassin out of the four.

 

 

Remember when Culexus was vaguely viable, because you could abuse his 'psykers within 12" shot bonus by placing him near Knights?

Brotherhood of Psykers :(

 

Oh, and Eversor was the nightmare of gunlines back when you could Sweeping Advance into new combats. Outflank, charge on the turn you arrive (oh, the days when Genestealers still scared people), double shot the pistol...and a Poisioned power weapon with his neural gauntet, which we argued about whether it could re-roll to wound...

[Kenderleech]

mnnnnn, a word in your ear.   the soulless rule.  INFILTRATE.  How much we miss you, on our beloved children.

 

-unnamed ordo sicarus inquisitor

[Reclusiarch Darius]

>mfw Assassins haven't been viable for three editions now

http://imgur.com/eDsfs59

 

They need to release a Dataslate codex for them. If Legion of the Damned spammed into Elites and Fast Attack deserve a paid digital codex, Assassins well and truly do. 

[librisrouge]

As an IG player, I'd actually fork out money to GW if it meant a worthwhile Assassins codex.

[Kenderleech]

As someone who owns 6 of each assassin model, including the old imperial assassin, Id pay too.

[jeffersonian000]

The Callidus can still auto-hit an invisible unit upon arrival, which may or may not be worth 145pts.

 

SJ