Unusual force weapons, how much WYSIWYG leeway is there?

[Teetengee]

I believe strictest raw is that the model, which by the rules must have a force weapon, step 1. has a force weapon.

Step 2. we look at the model to see what that force weapon is.

     -An open palm.

Step 3: Does it have its own rules? No. Ok not unusual, it must be one of the three sword, axe, stave.

Step 4: Is it an exact match to one of the three? No. Which is it closest to? Since it has no blades (I presume) then it is neither an axe nor a sword, also it is a blunt implelement (hand/fist) at the end of a stick (arm) therefore it is a force stave.

 

That is the closest I can get to a concrete RAW answer. Step 4 interpretations are key here.

[Ozshock]

lol you cant think a fist is a force stave...why would you even suggest it

 

ill end the argument right here once and for all...

 

local clubs dont generally care about WYSIWYG...so long as your opponent knows which weapon it is there shouldnt be a problem

 

in tournaments however, they are very strict on WYSIWYG...therefore if you have no weapon modelled, it has no weapon regardless of what is on the stat sheet or not...so model a weapon that you want to use at that tournament...

 

what i would do...if you have times where you want a different weapon, magnetise all 3...then you will have no problems with confusion on what the weapon is supposed to be...magnetise the weapon you want to use for each game...pinning is ok as well but magnets last longer and stay on there far easier

[Teetengee]

Even in the old wysiwyg rules you only had to model weapons that were upgrades, (though I won't quote 5th ed rules anymore!) stock weapons needn't to have been modelled, so that may not be accurate Ozshock, although I do agree that there should be a weapon on the model if you want to use it in a tournament that is strict on such things.

[Grey Mage]

lol you cant think a fist is a force stave...why would you even suggest it

 

ill end the argument right here once and for all...

 

local clubs dont generally care about WYSIWYG...so long as your opponent knows which weapon it is there shouldnt be a problem

 

in tournaments however, they are very strict on WYSIWYG...therefore if you have no weapon modelled, it has no weapon regardless of what is on the stat sheet or not...so model a weapon that you want to use at that tournament...

 

what i would do...if you have times where you want a different weapon, magnetise all 3...then you will have no problems with confusion on what the weapon is supposed to be...magnetise the weapon you want to use for each game...pinning is ok as well but magnets last longer and stay on there far easier

No, that is not correct.

 

If its base wargear thats not traded out for anything, theres no WYSIWYG issue normally. Grey Hunters for example are almost never modeled with all three weapons, yet they still use them every game. So saying that his standard issue wargear doesnt exist comes off as a bit trite.

[Quixus]

If its base wargear thats not traded out for anything, theres no WYSIWYG issue normally. Grey Hunters for example are almost never modeled with all three weapons, yet they still use them every game. So saying that his standard issue wargear doesnt exist comes off as a bit trite.

The problem is that in the case of the Sorcerer the standard wargear is not unambiguously defined by the rules. A Force Weapon can be any of the three types. The rules even say that you should look at the model to determine which type it is. So a model without one of the three types might be considered an illegal model.

[JamesI]

Not really an official answer, but if you have a written list that states "Force sword" or "Force axe" or staff most people won't care.

 

Personally, I'd throw a scabbard on the model somewhere to just say his sword is sheathed.

[Ozshock]

i thought i covered everything with my post...the general rule for force weapons is to look at the model and see what it has...so if the model is not modelled with a force weapon...it doesnt have one, AS PER THE RULEING...so you should model it with whatever you feel you want to use...

 

BUT as i said a couple of times, local clubs arent worried about WYSIWYG so long as your opponent knows its fine to model whatever you like...

 

im not sure what the rule for grey hunters are...can they choose which weapon out of a list they are equipped with? or are they equipped with all 3...or is all 3 in the squad, and one model owns one of the weapons?

 

as a hobbyist i prefer to model everything i have WYSIWYG...even so far as to magnetise 5man squads so they can change from swords, halberds, DHammers, etc so i know when i pull out the model the opponent knows straight away what my guys are equipped with...but thats just me

[Teetengee]

Ozshock, even the old wyswyg rule only required you to model upgrades, grey hunters unless they replace a weapon always have the three weapons. The force weapon is exactly the same on the sorcerer. The force weapon rules says look at the model to determine what type of force weapon it has, it never says look at the model to determine if it has a force weapon. (In fact the what type rule only comes into play once the model is already guaranteed to have a force weapon, i.e. once you are at the stage of looking at the model for type, you know the model has a force weapon.)

[Quixus]

Does a non-existent force weapon look like a force axe, staff or sword? If you do not put one on there you cannot decide and the weapon does not have rules. I.e. it does not work, which is pretty much the same as not having one.

 

What about not modeling a ranged weapon on death company? They also always have either a bolt pistol or a bolt gun.

[Teetengee]

Once again, wyswyg is not a rule. It used to apply to upgrades. But it has not existed since 5th ed. If the model is clearly recognizable as whatever it is supposed to be, I can have it riding a force Zamboni, but it is still whatever weapon I paid the points for. That being said, what are the rules for a force weapon? They are not in the csm codex, so we check the brb. The brb says look at the model to figure out what type it has. Well it apparently has a force hand (Zamboni, mackerel, something). Is this a force axe, sword, or stave, well no. Then use the rules for whichever of those three it is closest to. Not once does it say that if the force weapon is hard to distinguish that the model doesn't have one. The rules force you to decide which of the three types it is as it has no special rules in the codex to qualify it for unusual status. There is no ambiguity in the rules on whether the model has a force weapon. It definitely has one. We just need to decide whether a force hand is closest to a staff, an axe, or a sword. There are no other options (until you forge the narrative of course).

 

(I argue staff in general for the reasons I have stated below, but I would really have to see the model. If he was using a martial knife hand, well maybe it would be closer to an ace, or a pointy finger of doom, maybe a sword, but that is for the model's owner and the opponent (or the TO) to decide.)

[shortysl]

Not modelling a stock weapon on a model does not automatically mean it does not have the weapon. The problem with this particular issue is that the type of Force Weapon is not specified; it's existence on the model, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.

 

One could argue that if you intentionally model your Sorcerer without a Force weapon that falls within the specified weapon types, you can be accused quite readily of modelling for advantage which is very much against the 'spirit of the game' and will usually see you dread-socked.

 

As so many have already said, there's no issue with modelling your Sorcerer with an open hand or whatever other pose you decide to come up with but generally speaking, if there are a choice of weapon possibilities, each with their own distinct characteristics, you SHOULD be making it clear somewhere on the model as to what type of weapon it is. Whether this is done by magnetising arms or by a stowed weapon/sheath doesn't really matter.

 

All just my opinion of course.

[Teetengee]

I agree that the modeling for advantage concern is definitely there (even though not technically a rule anymore). If people are really upset about it, you might just let the opponent decide at the beginning of the game what type of weapon it is. That should solve any "advantage" concerns.

[Raeven]

As long as you aren't changing the weapon type at your leisure, it shouldn't matter.  It's not a unique weapon though, for all the reasons already stated.

 

Just write down on your FoC what weapon he is carrying and make sure you don't go changing it between games if you are playing a tourney that requires the same list.

 

If someone gives you crap, blue tac a weapon on the base..

[jeffersonian000]

The reason why I advised for an undefined Force Weapon to be ruled as an Unusual Force Weapon is because it would have the same base stat line as a Force Sword which just do happens to be the generic stat line for an undefined Power Weapon. As in, if its not an Axe nor a Stave, its a Sword. Argue all you want about special rules, but in the end, it's the simplest way to define an undefined Force Weapon.

 

SJ

[Teetengee]

@Jeffersonian, As a way to stop arguments and all that I think it is a great house rule and a great solution to treat all strange force weapons as Unusual. Unfortunately, the RAW state that only force weapons with special rules (such as nemesis force weapons) qualify as Unusual.

[Quixus]

@Jeffersonian, As a way to stop arguments and all that I think it is a great house rule and a great solution to treat all strange force weapons as Unusual. Unfortunately, the RAW state that only force weapons with special rules (such as nemesis force weapons) qualify as Unusual.

Except for the Nemesis Daemon Hammer, it has its own rule accordign to the update document.

[Teetengee]

Fair.

[Sophiearcher]

It's significantly less work than magnetizing anything.

 

Just put an unpainted bit on the base with some blu-tac as a reminder of what the open hand counts as.

 

Of course, personally, I would go with the logic that "empty hand = punching = blunt = force staff".

 

Here's a similar question: My Librarian is armed with a Force Kama. Would you say that counts as an axe or a sword? I play it as an axe, but I'm curious what other people would assume.

I would ask waht is it :P but if i had to assume i would assume sword. Kamas are "light" weapons and swing quickly so wouldnt have the same weight and force as an axe.