Taking and Holding

[Holyflak]

Hi all!

 

I am a new player to 40k and am trying to build up an army, right now I have a librarian HQ and two tactical squads to my name.  Before I invest a massive amount of coin on models I wanted to think about tactics.  My main style of play when playing strategy games has always been to get to the objective and hold it at all costs.  This style of play tends to have me choose high toughness troops and lots of fortifications.  In 40k I was looking at the many different ways to play and I have thought of some following tactics that could be used on the board.  My main tactical idea would be to put tough scoring units onto objectives as fast as I could and keep them there.  I enjoy doubling up on units so instead of taking odd number of units I would take them in multiples of two.  Thus I would put two units of tacticals with similar loadouts onto a very high point objective and have them spew bullets until the enemy stopped moving. Conversely I would drop two tacticals on two very close objectives and have them cover each other.  My idea would be that there are four phases, movement, phychic, shooting and assault.  My army would be based on controlling the movement and shooting phases.  The movement phase I would control by forcing the enemy to attack my units where I choose.  If an army is very mobile such as a biker army or Tau their mobility would be diminished as they are forced to attack units on the objectives letting my supporting fire go unmolested (relatively speaking).  The second phase would be the shooting phase.  Since I am not moving my army around and keeping them still I can maximize my heavy weapons.  Heavy weapons are kind of limited by movement but if my units don`t move I can stock up on that Plasma cannon.  My local gaming shop is where I would be playing (it`s the only games workshop store in Korea where I currently live) so there wouldn`t be any tournaments only friendly pick up games.

 

1.  Full tac squads in drop pods with plasma cannon and flamer.  I would drop them down on the objectives and then sit on them and weather out the storm.  The flamer would help with the inevitable assault while the plasma cannon would deliver mass amounts of chaos in incoming troops.

 

2. Terminator squads coming in on teleport homers.  This would allow them to hopefully get into some kind of cover and unleash all hell.  I was thinking of loading them out with assault cannons and a heavy flamer, again for the unleashing long ranged fire and the flamer for the inevitable assault.

 

3. Infiltrated scout squads.  These guys would have bolters and would sit on those pesky one or two point objectives.  The idea there would be that the one or two point objectives aren`t worth going after so the other player would try to go after the four or five points leaving a unit of bolters to spew lead out all game harassing units.  

 

As I havn`t played a game yet I`m wondering three things really.  

 

1. Are these tactics viable.  I realize that drop pod armies are very fashionable but are used more like assault pods to get into close combat.  I would use them more to get myself stuck onto those objectives and try to keep them.

 

2. Does anyone have any experience with dropping in tacticals and keeping the objectives?  Do the marines get wiped out too fast or do they have the staying power to stick around.  A lot of the battle reports that I see on Youtube have no terminators or use them as assault troops.  Are they viable as a take and hold unit in this manner?  

 

3. What chapter tactics would be best for a take and hold drop pod army?  Iron Fists seem really juicy but Tigris from Ultramarines would be insanely powerful paired up with a terminator squad.  4+ invul with rerolls on their shooting from him sounds like a unit that isn`t going anywhere for a while.  Raven guard would also allow me to infiltrate my units almost wherever I want so I would infiltrate my tacticals onto the objectives from turn one and then ride things out with firepower and armour saves.  

 

Obviously I would need to take a lot of other units such as devastators, predators or other long range shooters to back up and support these mobile units.  I am also looking at a storm talon unit or bike/assault marines to drop behind the enemies lines and foul up their own long range hooters that stay in the back.  It`s hard to root someone off of an objective with no supporting fire power.

 

Right now I`m just looking to make a 750 point list as I want to see what units work well before I expand in new units.  I`m also making a home grown chapter with my own colour scheme and fluffy back ground so I can change my armies tactics when I feel like it.  I hate the idea of painting an ultra marine army only to want to run an Iron Hands list later.  All feed back would be more than welcome!  Thanks so much!

[Leonaides]

A marine army cannot afford to ignore the assault phase, and if your plan ever involves stopping on one point and trying to outshoot an enemy you will struggle to beat guard, eldar, dark eldar or tau. All of those armies can and probably will outshoot you, but all of those armies you can beat in assault. Depending on your mission i'd suggest aiming to hold something near but not on an objective- that way your enemy has to either split his forces to attack you or capture the objective or ignore you to get the objective or ignore the objective to get you. Sitting on the objective allows him to do both at the same time and he doesnt have to think so much.

 

you might want to think about bikes and or centurions for units that can move and still shoot to maximum effect.

[GreyCrow]

Like Leonaides said, you can't afford to forget the assaut phase !

 

Marines are a hard army to play, because while other armies have special perks that are easy to visualize and understand, for example special rules that are very efficient or pieces of gear with a high volume of fire and good armour penetration, Marines don't have access to that in very large numbers. Marines don't have fancy units either. Although some may appear to be, they are not.

I've experimented with low model count Marine armies trying to cram in as much gear as possible in minimum sized units and it's not worth it for the entire army for a simple reason : the base cost of our model is very expensive and we pay for already premium soldiers, and if we are too gear happy, we won't generate a sufficient mass.

 

However, and that's something that you will understand over time and over the course of a few games where you will start to feel it, Marines do have a perk that is shared amongst all the soldiers.

 

And that is T4, Initiative 4, 3+ and Ws4 and And they shall know no fear. What that means is that our guys are damn resilient and that we outmatch many enemy units in close combat. Of course, we're going to get out asses whooped by dedicated close combat units, but against pretty much any unit, we're going to kick some butt. Even if for some reason we lose the Assault phase, we won't die, but if we win it, we have a chance of completely wiping out the other unit.

 

In addition, there's something not to be forgotten in the assault phase : It is the fact that for our barebones Troops, charging doubles our output in close combat. We go from 11 base attacks in a Tactical squad to 21, and we add in shooting the Bolt Pistols.

Finally, our shooting ability is good but nothing to write home about. We really should look at shooting as a way to deal more damage a turn before assaulting if we can. Also, our overwatch is decent but the Marines lose to Overwatch compared to other armies. For example : A Bs3 Tau will only lose 2 Bs points on Overwatch, while we lose 3. Because of all that, we want to go into assault before the enemy can reach there

 

In a nutshell, with the Marines :

- Defensive shooting

- Offensive assault

 

Regarding the Take and Hold strategy you mentionned, it can work ! But there are a few things that you will need to take into account :

1) For dropping in and staying on the objectives that are in the enemy deployment zone, you are going to need 10 men Tactical squads, and that's it. Because while you may think that you begin the game in Rapid Fire range you have to keep in mind that the enemy does too and that it will dramatically increase the number of Marines dead simply by the weight of numbers.

2) Terminator squads are fun, but they are a tactical tool rather than a full staying power army. They might have a 2+ save, but they only have T4 and a 5+ invulnerable save. They will die to volumes of numbers rather than to specialty weapons. They are very expensive and you can't expect them (or any other small marine unit) to hold an objective especially deep in the enemy deployment zone. You can play them with Teleport Homer as a way to reinforce the squads that you need to reinforce starting from Turn 2 onwards, but they are not the do-all kill-all machines many of us see them as.

3) In terms of loadout, the Flamer is a good addition but I wouldn't go for the Plasma Cannon in Drop Pod mounted Troops. In Turn 1, you won't get to shoot it. In Turn 2, you will shoot it perhaps. In Turn 3 for sure you will be in combat and you won't get to shoot it in overwatch. I would much more recommend a multi-melta at that level or a heavy bolter. Cheaper and they provide defensive fire against two kinds of targets.

4) While Dropping on the Objectives is cool and all, sometimes they are not in the most defensible position and unless you are in the Maelstrom of War missions, you don't need to hold them starting Turn 1. It's cool fluff wise, but mechanics wise it doesn't give you any advantage ;) It might be better to Drop in slightly away (within 12") of an objective in a position where your guys are less likely to get blasted to pieces, then work your way up there.

5) For objective holding, I wouldn't drop anything but Tactical squads. With the Objective secured rule, your Terminator squad will lose the Objective to a lone Ork model.

6) I would consider Dropping models that aren't there to hold objectives but to provide speedbumps or cause havoc in the enemy lines. Things that they can't ignore. A 10-man sternguard squad, 10 assault marines without Jump Packs, an Ironclad Dreadnought, a Dreadnought with power fist and multi-melta. Know that the Dreadnoughts will have to come later on to survive. Early on, they will die.

7) Anti Tank and lots of them. Tactical squads don't have the weaponry to deal volumes of Anti Tank shots against a highly mechanized army.

8) You need firesupport from your own table edge, both to pound from afar while the enemy has more pressing matter to deal with and to capture your own objectives. Like Leonaides mentionned, you might want to have fast moving units to help put more pressure in the critical moment, but still have good range. For fire support, a Devastator squad with Lascannons to help the Anti Tank, an Attack Bike squad with 3 Multi-meltas or a Landspeeder squad with 3 Typhoon Missile Launcher to deal with both tanks and infantry in support is good.

9) If you plan to have an HQ with a 2+ save, don't forget the Artificer armour when possible. It'll take up one less slot in a Drop Pod and will give you the ability to make sweeping advances after assault, which Terminator armour loses. Also, remember that an HQ is one more unit, and it will not win you the game on its own.

10) A scout squad is an interesting addition for a third scoring unit for sure ! Cheaper, synchronizes well with the Drop Pod and depending on the enemy army, you can either hold it back defensively or throw him forward.

11) Remember that you want your army to have as many Drop Pods coming in on Turn 1.

12) Also remember that W40k is designed to not be won in the first turn. The critical turns of any Warhammer 40.000 game (at least from what I've observed) are Turn 2 and Turns 5-6.

 

Well, that's a lot of points ! In a nutshell, if you want a purchase list :

- 3 10-man scoring units at 1500 points if you want to go right in the enemy's face, so that's one scout squad to buy !

- Non scoring units, like sternguards, assault marines, dreadnoughts that you can throw at your opponent to divert fire from your Tacticals

- Fire support, namely long range Devastators, Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas, Landspeeder Typhoons

- A second wave of support elements

[incinerator950]

Marines a hard army to play? Oh how times have changed.

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I think if your army is going to be taking and holding objectives you are limiting your attack potential and thus fighting an uphill battle.

 

Reasons for this include; your numbers are too low to hold multiple objectives spread across a table; and you're not hitting the opponents hard enough to stop them hitting you back even harder and thus weakening your hold on the objectives.

 

Instead, aim to take a couple objectives early if need be and take the other objectives with your attack force. (Maelstrom of War is a different beast that will require a mobile force to hold objectives)

 

This is a difficult balance to get right of course because you need stopping power yet also need to play the victory conditions. This is why Drop Pod squads often end up used as an attack force.

[GreyCrow]

Marines a hard army to play? Oh how times have changed.

 

Let me rephrase. Marines are an army that is easy to begin with because forgiving, bt hard to play effectively and competitively ;)

 

It's much, much easier to wreck face with Necrons or Tau, for example !

[markham82]

I think I get what you're saying with holding objectives from the start. So here's what I think might help, get a scout squad( two is better) with camo cloaks and a land speeder storm for objective hunting or a bike squad. then have a bunch of units podding onto the enemy's head( it suck we can't hurt them when the droppod comes into play or at least tank shocking them) and grabbing him by the belt, forcing them to focus on whatever comes out of the pod instead of the scouts. If you have tacs coming out of the pod see if you can get the pod onto an objective. This achieves your goal of holding the objective and drawing attention away from the marines because you can't ignore objective secured units on an objective in your own half of the board. Lastly have something in the backfield with range to help out where needed, for example if your forward element is geared for anti infantry your backfield should have anti tank and vice versa.

 

The problem with Tiggy is that he can't teleport in with the terminators so you need a transport for them( If you make them walk you can't win the internet). If you do the math its very expensive and for similar points you might as well get shooty centurions to go with him, which is what people are doing.

[Holyflak]

One of my biggest concerns is durability.  I realize that Space Marines are tough but are they tough enough to camp an objective for 5+ rounds?  Would the Iron Hands Feel no pain and It will not die help with this at all?  Also, I like the idea of using Tacticals go get stuck in and using scouts to zip around and get the objectives.  I actually like that alot.

 

I guess I should also clarify a main point.  While my tacticals would be landing on the high point objectvies and holding them I would use my fast attack and heavy support choices to support them.  Think the classic Hammer and anvil tactic where my camped tacticals and scout squads would be the anvil while devestator, bike or Storm Talens would be the hammer.  I would try to use my Tacticals to form the flow of battle while my fast attacks and heavy supports would try to anhilate the enemy as their attention would be focused on the objective huggers.

[Leonaides]

Your tactical squads need to be closer together to form an anvil, and objectives are usually spread out. You could be split and isolated if an enemy focusses on one or two squads

[GreyCrow]

Your tactical squads need to be closer together to form an anvil, and objectives are usually spread out. You could be split and isolated if an enemy focusses on one or two squads

 

Exactly what he said !

 

To be perfectly honest, the Drop Pod Assault strategy is a good way to play but not a good way to deliver your Troops on objectives. If you drop them right on the objectives, they will be a lot closer to the enemy's firepower and easier to get into rapid fire range. If you don't have alternative targets to offer the enemy, you Tactical squads will get chewed upon over the course of the game.

 

No unit is durable enough to tank the full power of an army for 5+ turns.

 

Usually, when going for a Drop Pod Assault strategy, you start by sending in the big guns and the scary guys that can make a dent in the enemy's force, and that can take the return fire for at least a turn. In your 2nd wave, you send your Tacticals to reinforce and consolidate your takings.

Now, the ennemy's forces should be quite damaged and you'll get less flakk in return for your Tactical squads.

 

Unless you have damn scary and damn fast moving elements that can be in the enemy's face in Turn 1 as well so they have to take on both them and your podded Tacticals at the same time.

How about Landspeeders instead of the Devastators ? They're kind of the Heavy Weapons team of the Fast Attack choice ! And in the first turn, move 12, fire all, then jink in the next turn. Attack Bike squads could work too if you're on a budget and need a large volume of multi-meltas.

 

Long range fire support will actually be your enemy in your own list. Simply because they will be so far from the enemy, your opponent will likely focus fire on the units that are right in his face first !

[Imren]

I have a recipe that is a successful against AV13/14 vehicles, to psyche out the enemy or just wreak general havoc:

 

One drop pod containing a sternguard squad with combimeltas, heavy flamer and a termie libby with storm shield. Drop them near the opponents troop carriers or landraiders or railgun skimmers or whatever that threats you. Disembark the squad with the libby up front, pop the vehicle with the combimeltas, then his turn you soak up the ragefire against this squad with the termie storm shield, keeping the sternguard alive, next turn you wreak havoc with spec issue ammo and the flamer.

 

Similar thing is a command squad with plasma guns and a apothecary in the pod, drop this squad next to battlesuits, troop carriers or other low armour vehicles or high armor elite infantry, and unleash the plasma rounds from 5 plasma guns, then hope that the apothecary can save the squad from the rage fire, the squad can of course be combined with a termie character with storm shield too.

 

Bring land speeder storms with scout squads for late game objective grabbing, they can quickly deploy on any objective on the table picking ups some extra victory points.

[Azash]

Actually I have seen this exact tactic worked out quite well but with several key differences.

 

First with the kind of tactic your looking at your less concerned about objectives and more concerned with board control. You want to own that real estate whether there is an objective or not. This in turn limits your opponents options and you can funnel them.

 

Secondly by doubling up two tacticals on a single point your ignoring one huge advantage...combat squads. Each tactical can split into two 5 man combat squads. What does this allow? An opponent can't fire on them both with the same unit so no matter how devastating that wraith knight is he can only target one and thus your casualties are capped at 5. If you get assaulted you can multi assault but they just lost attacks and 5 marines that die on his turn means you can shoot him on yours. 10 marines that eventually die on your turn means he gets to assault again without being shot at.

 

Think of a checker board pattern with units set up in overlapping V's one unit up front one unit in back. Now repeat that 6 times and your opponent has 18 obj secured units on the table that he has to deal with. Now you can fire both combat squads at the same target you just roll the dice separately.

 

Now with marines you have to be flexible. Marines are good at everything great at nothing. So what you can't shoot you hit and what you can't hit you shoot :)

 

Intersperse that checkerboard with units off assault terminators or snooty terminators for counter attack units and throw in some fliers and you have a nice army.

 

Scout squads are not a good choice in a pod/deep strike list. If I go first and take out your infiltrated scouts your tabled on my turn...you lose on rnd 1.

 

For chapter tactics I would go with Imperial Fists. Heck even running Pedro for that 12" +1 to attack bubble would be nice in an MSU pod list with termies support. However since your rolling 5-10 dice at a time the rerolls on 1's would be super helpful. Since your anti tank will come from single HW's in TAC squads tank hunter will also be super useful.

[Imren]

deployed scouts are a disadvantage when running pod list, they become one of the few targets to shoot at if opponent gets first turn, but I'm suggesting scouts in a land speeder, they come in when the smoke have settled somewhat in turn four or five, speed up to an objective and take it. At that point there will be less units on the table in general, less units not tied in combat that can shoot it.