will the dark angels never get access to the storm Raven

[Pbenner]

Aradiel; Dreadsock them. Centurions in DA colors would make me cry.

 

Can we not take the SR and 2x ST formation? Personally, I have two SRs in my Fists, and two STs, with a third sitting on sprue, I haven't gotten. To play with them yet, but they don't seem bad. Kitted out right they are a flying Land Raider hybrid and pretty bad ass. Might be an interesting Dakka Pole delivery system.

 

Paul

[ValourousHeart]

Let me start by saying that I really like the nephilem.

 

(So the rest of my comments can be wholesale ignored, because I have no idea what I'm talking about).

 

However, if I had been the one to design our flyers and write their rules, I would have made 1 design change and 2 major rule changes

 

The design change I would have made would be to put the lascanons in the same spot that the heavy bolters are in.

 

The first major rule change I would have made is to make the flyer a single unit with options, not 2 units.

 

This would give you 2 main gun choices, 2 secondary gun choices, 2 wing mounted choices, and a bomb.

 

The second major rule change I would have made was that instead of giving the flyer hover mode, I would have given it an upgrade option to vector dancer.

 

With those changes, even with the current weapon stats, I think we could all be happy with that unit.

 

But until I can put bikes in a flyer, I don't see the need for a SR.

[SvenONE]

Don't quote me on it, but I think with the way that Allies work now you can embark on the Stormwing Formation's Stormraven.  You could only board transports if you were part of the parent codex, since the Stormraven/Stormtalon parent codex was C:SM, taking the formation would count as an ally/battle brother.  However with the restriction lifted with Battle Brothers being unable to board transports, they should be able to.  So it seems if you want you could fly your stormraven in and drop someone off.

 

Granted that formation is some serious points, but it's worth it.  Not to mention 1 roll for all 3 fliers to come in.

 

I think the Stormraven is an attractive flyer simply because of it's durability and armaments.  I think we got that durability in the form of the Landraiders we have (albeit making them considerably more expensive)

 

The Stormraven is a bargain for what it does, it's hard to hit, it's a great vehicle hunter, it's a great anti-air hunter with Stormstrike missiles.  

 

In the end I think the real reason we didn't or don't have it is because you could stick a command squad in it and have it now do this:

 

4 TLS6/AP4, Rending

1 TLS8/AP1, Melta

24 TL S4/AP5 Bolter shots

 

We can ALMOST do that now with the landraiders, but they aren't hard to hit.  I'm gearing up to do some "what-if" battle reports soon and one of them is if we had the Stormraven to do what I just mentioned above.

[Master Avoghai]

 

What I just wanna say is I get disheartened when reading our codex as I feel its being robbed and given badly thought out flyers in return

So, how do you move forward? Some constructive thoughts to make the Codex a little less "robbed" feeling for you? Use other units instead? Don't worry about Codex-Codex direct comparisons? Ideas for house-rule improvements to the flyers that would make them better?

Simple my friend :

 

Buy 2 sets of Baal predator assault cannons

Put them in the nose of 2 Nephilims with magnets

Buy a storm raven

 

Play them as a storm wing (with the nephilim counting as 2 storm talon with asscannon/hellstrike missiles)

 

Et voilà! Enjoy v7 and battle brother transport that can carry allies !

 

Other questions? ;)

[Dark_Master]

The Storm Raven & Storm Eagle have a fatal flaw.

 

In order to deploy terminators then they have to become more vulnerable, and depend on the dice gods for reserves.

 

Landraiders (especially with PFG) are much better, plus turn 2 assault is nearly certain.

 

I like the Nephilim, plus backed by a Fire Raptor it'll do fine, + no points wasted on transport you don't use.

 

DM

[Pbenner]

Hey DM,

 

The first flaw is a problem with any flying transport, no?

 

I think the secon gets smaller in larger games, its all about how many eggs in a basket I think.

 

I like them because I can DWA turn 1 and clear a landing for them, then move forward.

 

I like my Storm Eagles, I need to finish them.

 

Paul

[aura_enchanted]

If I could improve the the nephiulm would have anti tank/flyer and anti personnel version anti tank/flyer would have two lascannons and a cyclone missile bay, my anti personnel would have a 3 twinlinked plasma guns and the avenger mega bolter, I would give the land speeder vengeance the ability to move in the assault phase and I would give the dark shroud a item where you rolled dice to be able to see it

That picture is awesome :)

How I would change the neph is very simple. Swap his missles out for large blast whirlwind missles.

 

Then strip out the hb for a lascannon.

 

What we now have is a dual lascannon av11 flyer with 6 large blast template missles capable of serious harm,

 

And I'd give the option to pay for an ordinance panic switch. This 30pts upgrade let you fire off all 6 missles in a single vicious salvo. Perfect for annihilating guard blobs and crippling mass boyz.

 

You could even keep the price at 180.

 

The vengeance really only needs one change. Allow it to be taken in a squadron with normal speeders. And grant it look out sir! This would let you bury it in a support squadron with up to 6 ablative hull points. Again keep the price as it is.

 

This gives ravenwing support squadrons of multiple speeders a purpose and let's you mould a sort of speeder battleship loaded with light attack guns and missle pods and big ugly ol' beat stick.

[Prot]

The vengeance needs at least that tweak, and it's far too expensive.... kind of in the same position as the Nephilim. Although I can honestly say I've had some positive experiences with the Nephilim, but never as a Lascanon variant. Instead as a pill box with the Avenger Mega Bolter. 

 

My last attempt with it was successfully hunting down a really annoying Dakka-Flyrant (aren't they all?) . The problem is we keep seeing modifications to one of the oldest 6th edition codexes, in the form of new codexes. I think while it's not welcome, it is expected and I agree for the most part some of these things just need FAQ touches and they would be fine. However, I've never seen GW so aggressive in putting out new merchandise and it kind of kills my hope for such changes. 

 

I'm trying hard to not be negative. Just realistic, because at the end of the day, a few armies really dominate flyers anyway so I have become less and less concerned with the issues that affect the Nephilim. That being said I still think it's one of the best looking flyers in the game. 

[Phoebus]

Yes, we are many times the testbed for SMCodex, yet we get stuff they don't have and vice versa. If we got all they have and vice versa there would be no point to a separate Codex, would it? We would be just green ultramarines with black whitescar bikes and bone-white terminators.

 

Frankly, I sometimes wonder the Unforgiven would be better serviced by having a Codex: Dark Angels, which focuses precisely on those elements of the Chapter that are unique to the Chapter and its Successors.

 

That is, the Dark Angels are - for the most part - a Codex Chapter with highly unique First and Second Companies (Ravenwing, Deathwing, Deathwing Knights), Headquarters Characters (Inner Circle), and a couple of unique vehicles.  Maybe the material that correlates with 3rd-10th Companies should be left to Codex: Space Marines.  Drop the price for C:DA to match the smaller size, and add a small blurb wherein Space Marines, Assault Marines, Vanguard, and Sternguard are also Stubborn at an additional cost of X.

 

About the only Space Marine armies that logically need their own Codex independent from that of C:SM are the Grey Knights and the Space Wolves (for obvious reasons).  Where everyone else who girds himself for war in power armour is concerned, the game is balanced, or it is not; characters, units and vehicles are balanced, or they are not.  The current rules (and those of the last edition before them) are practically screaming encouragement to those who field Space Marine armies to use assets, units, and characters from other Space Marine armies.  I just want GW to just get on with it already, and take that final plunge.

[aura_enchanted]

 

 

Yes, we are many times the testbed for SMCodex, yet we get stuff they don't have and vice versa. If we got all they have and vice versa there would be no point to a separate Codex, would it? We would be just green ultramarines with black whitescar bikes and bone-white terminators.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder the Unforgiven would be better serviced by having a Codex: Dark Angels, which focuses precisely on those elements of the Chapter that are unique to the Chapter and its Successors.

 

That is, the Dark Angels are - for the most part - a Codex Chapter with highly unique First and Second Companies (Ravenwing, Deathwing, Deathwing Knights), Headquarters Characters (Inner Circle), and a couple of unique vehicles. Maybe the material that correlates with 3rd-10th Companies should be left to Codex: Space Marines. Drop the price for C:DA to match the smaller size, and add a small blurb wherein Space Marines, Assault Marines, Vanguard, and Sternguard are also Stubborn at an additional cost of X.

 

About the only Space Marine armies that logically need their own Codex independent from that of C:SM are the Grey Knights and the Space Wolves (for obvious reasons). Where everyone else who girds himself for war in power armour is concerned, the game is balanced, or it is not; characters, units and vehicles are balanced, or they are not. The current rules (and those of the last edition before them) are practically screaming encouragement to those who field Space Marine armies to use assets, units, and characters from other Space Marine armies. I just want GW to just get on with it already, and take that final plunge.

what I think is that gw needs to quit taking a dump on the dark angels codex and quit dis-respecting their own sob codex.

 

They treat us like such garbage and it's absolutely uncalled for. We can be great armies if they would quit robbing perks of our army to benefit other sm armies. And if they make us genuinely feel more important than they do.

 

Kill sf ultra, kill reclusiam cmd squad, and kill the captains on bikes make bikes troops bs. That's our shtick, and the smurfs and imperial fist can leave. White scars should be robbed of scout on their bikes (keep it on their rhinos fine w/e). Put the boot on the other foot for a change and we would become a meaningful army again.

[Komrk]

 

 

Yes, we are many times the testbed for SMCodex, yet we get stuff they don't have and vice versa. If we got all they have and vice versa there would be no point to a separate Codex, would it? We would be just green ultramarines with black whitescar bikes and bone-white terminators.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder the Unforgiven would be better serviced by having a Codex: Dark Angels, which focuses precisely on those elements of the Chapter that are unique to the Chapter and its Successors.

That is, the Dark Angels are - for the most part - a Codex Chapter with highly unique First and Second Companies (Ravenwing, Deathwing, Deathwing Knights), Headquarters Characters (Inner Circle), and a couple of unique vehicles. Maybe the material that correlates with 3rd-10th Companies should be left to Codex: Space Marines. Drop the price for C:DA to match the smaller size, and add a small blurb wherein Space Marines, Assault Marines, Vanguard, and Sternguard are also Stubborn at an additional cost of X.

About the only Space Marine armies that logically need their own Codex independent from that of C:SM are the Grey Knights and the Space Wolves (for obvious reasons). Where everyone else who girds himself for war in power armour is concerned, the game is balanced, or it is not; characters, units and vehicles are balanced, or they are not. The current rules (and those of the last edition before them) are practically screaming encouragement to those who field Space Marine armies to use assets, units, and characters from other Space Marine armies. I just want GW to just get on with it already, and take that final plunge.

what I think is that gw needs to quit taking a dump on the dark angels codex and quit dis-respecting their own sob codex.

They treat us like such garbage and it's absolutely uncalled for. We can be great armies if they would quit robbing perks of our army to benefit other sm armies. And if they make us genuinely feel more important than they do.

Kill sf ultra, kill reclusiam cmd squad, and kill the captains on bikes make bikes troops bs. That's our shtick, and the smurfs and imperial fist can leave. White scars should be robbed of scout on their bikes (keep it on their rhinos fine w/e). Put the boot on the other foot for a change and we would become a meaningful army again.

Uh... Get rid of scout on White Scars bikes... Get rid of a perk to a bike CHAPTER so that a Bike COMPANY can be unique? Uh... Alrighty there bud. And hey, at least your rules aren't useless unless you use overpriced units which then only benefit from one of the rules, and the rest only benefit for the first turn. And if you're going to complain about not being unique enough, don't do it around chapters that went from unique to Smurfs with a different paint job and who like something a little different than usual.

[Azoriel]

 

Uh... Get rid of scout on White Scars bikes... Get rid of a perk to a bike CHAPTER so that a Bike COMPANY can be unique? Uh... Alrighty there bud. And hey, at least your rules aren't useless unless you use overpriced units which then only benefit from one of the rules, and the rest only benefit for the first turn. And if you're going to complain about not being unique enough, don't do it around chapters that went from unique to Smurfs with a different paint job and who like something a little different than usual.

 

 

The White Scars have never been independent of the Smurf codex - but perhaps that's even less reason to complain?

 

You know, we didn't have hit and run bikers back in the day; that used to be something unique to the Scars.  And the Scars still can't produce super scoring three man bike teams, or make four scoring units from a single troops selection.  (I'd point out power lances were unique to the Scars as well, and arguably worked better back then, too, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone field one.)  Sometimes, I'm envious of the fact that the Scars can hide attack bikes in their conventional bike squads, and make full on attack bike squadrons (which we used to have back in the day as well), but I personally don't think I'd ever start demanding the Scars lose things for our benefit.

[ZONKEY]

My only point was I felt our unique exclusive units feel as though other Astarte's can do them as well and maybe better, but I bet others said similar things when other astartes could field plasma canons in squads

[Master Avoghai]

My only point was I felt our unique exclusive units feel as though other Astarte's can do them as well and maybe better, but I bet others said similar things when other astartes could field plasma canons in squads

But again you're reasoning unit per unit not codex per codex.

You don't have any other codex that can field scouting bikes with troops termis.

 

I've brown hair. Should I complain because those brown hair are not unique to me?

No what makes me unique are my brown hair combined with my hair cut and the beautiful face with them... :lol:

 

I used to live single and meeting lots of girls but sometimes I really felt lonely. Now I'm married and I cannot meet girls like I used to... But I no longer feel lonely... I've made a choice, you cannot have everything... NEVER.

GW gave you the possibility to play a stormwing, so enjoy this freedom.

 

Rather than complaining about what you could have, appreciate what you already have. We have a nice codex, and I feel more angry with the lack of TH/SS sgt than the lack of SR... Because it's something we were allowed to field and we no longer can...

[ZONKEY]

Thats another thing that doesn't make any bleeping sense our terminator sergeants, I think I am just collecting the wrong army for me dark angels just don't do it, clearly the I need to try non Astartes army

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Thats another thing that doesn't make any bleeping sense our terminator sergeants, I think I am just collecting the wrong army for me dark angels just don't do it, clearly the I need to try non Astartes army

I always say: You don't pick DA, DA pick you. I think that you have so many issues and that the DA don't make you happy, you should explore other options. C:SM has all you want and no restrictions... well almost none compared to DA.

[elmo]

Captain lucifer has a point. It was not the codex which made me choose DA, it was the background and the great looking models....

 

Who doesn't like gothic, brooding and dark warrior monks with attitude ;)

 

If you do want to use units which are not in our codex then just play them as allies, job done. That is how I play my Stormraven.

[ZONKEY]

I was thinking about joining the xenos ranks of tau, I have collected dark angels for a long long while

[Larhendiel]

From grim dark aristocrathic secrecy of almost like masons organisation to a comunist CCCP with its happy propaganda of greater good justifies all

I guess we all have our watcher in the dark xeno pets :D

[elmo]

I was thinking about joining the xenos ranks of tau, I have collected dark angels for a long long while

Heresy!

 

 

I have tau too. Both collected from when they had poor codexes ;)

[Master Sheol]

Who doesn't like gothic, brooding and dark warrior monks with attitude

Technically DA are templar knights in space, not Warrior monks.

However they are really gothic, brooding and mean. And thia is why i love them. ;)

[FerociousBeast]

I don't think the Dark Angels should have the Stormraven or Stormtalon. I also don't think Space Marines, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves should have them. I also don't think the Dark Angels should Nephilim or Darkshroud!

 

In short... I don't think any flyers have a place in an infantry skirmish game like Warhammer 40,000.

 

But I know no one agrees with me, so I'll just see myself to the door now...

[Chaplain Killmer]

I don't want to miss the point - but aren't we 7th ed now? The question if a certain unit is in my codex or not will less and less important. If you feel the need to include a certain unit you have ways to do so. So seeing the wolves getting a stormraven just means they will not get a cool designed aircraft of their own. ;)

[ZONKEY]

I agree I wish there where no flyers in 40k

[Prot]

 

Thats another thing that doesn't make any bleeping sense our terminator sergeants, I think I am just collecting the wrong army for me dark angels just don't do it, clearly the I need to try non Astartes army

I always say: You don't pick DA, DA pick you. I think that you have so many issues and that the DA don't make you happy, you should explore other options. C:SM has all you want and no restrictions... well almost none compared to DA.

 

 

 

You have said this to me in private as well. And what that did is cause me to think: "Why did I pick Dark Angels?"

 

- Originally it was actually the DV models. I thought the sculpts were fantastic and in an expensive game, that set is lots of bang for the buck.

 

- My very first army was DA but I didn't get past 1000 points. This was... wow... maybe 15-18 years ago??? Unfortunately I didn't like painting bikes. Also, many local people play DA for some reason.

 

- Currently, I don't know all of them, but I would bet D.A. are the most played chapter in my city (if you compared Astartes against Astartes). I have no idea why... even the angry anti-White Scars guy in this forum is from my city. lol

 

- The unique units: This was big for me. And it's a double edged sword. The unique units in particular that really attracted me was: Nephilim (yea I know), Vengeance Speeder (uh-huh), and the Dark Shroud (mostly usable in 6th for me).  The Black Knights also. So you can see my original pull to the army was -mostly-  Ravenwing related.

 

- The HQ's. I think as far as force multipliers and pure effectiveness army wide (not just man-to-man), the Dark Angel HQ's are some of the best in the game. That may come as a surprise but in 7th I find this especially true. (I mean some armies the HQ is a foot note even, but in my 7th ed DA lists, they can make or break it.)

 

Oddly enough I never 'loved' green armour. The robes... well I did Black Templars for years, so I can live without those as well. Bone is okay, Black is okay... but aside from the sculpts the DA scheme never was a deciding factor even though I paint a lot. (I do find DA painting fatiguing which is why I probably have so little painted after so long.)

 

But I agree, if you aren't deeply connected to the background, and you want stuff like: Centurions, Thunderfire Canons, Chapter Tactics, decent Flyers, and other nick knacks, it might be time to try the vanilla codex... or wait til Wolves come out?