Heavy Weapons

[Brother_Marius]

So I realize this is basically a question with only 1 real answer (hint: it is: "Buy more models, paint them both ways") but I want to ask your opinions anyway.. I am building a Space Marine force and I realize, now that I have bought a box of Devastator marines, that I might be using the heavy weapons in a devastator squad sometimes and in a tactical squad at other times. Obviously I'll have to choose which shoulder pad marking to give them: an arrow for tactical, or an inverted V for devastator. I guess I should just choose the one I think I'll be using most often, but the thing is that I dont really know yet.

 

What is your experience with them? Do you have any weapons that you only ever use in either tactical or devastator exclusively? For example, one could argue that lascannons are better suited for the static devastator squad rather than a mobile tactical squad. But what about Heavy Bolters? I play Imperial fists and 2 or 3 heavy bolters scattered around my tactical squads is a rather nice idea to me. Missile Launchers? Mult-Melta's?

 

My idea is that I would prefer to have a Devastator squad, all have their proper markings (because it looks cool and identifiable on the table) and that a single devastator marking in a tactical squad isnt really noticeable. So maybe I should give every heavy weapon marine the devastator marking. But I dunno.

[Captain Idaho]

Well is use the Chapter symbol and deliberately don't use the squad designation symbol. Nice for fluff but for the army building it's unfair all the other armies can freely mix and match models.

 

Tactical squads for me become Plasma squads generally. A plasma cannon added to a squad makes it a real threat for comparatively cheap.

 

To increase my numbers on the board I often take a pair of 6-man combat squads with lascannon. Overall more expensive than a single Devastator squad, but I can have a dozen scoring models and still pack and extra 2 lascannons into the army. Also, they are still only 104pts for one squad and crucially I get to save a Heavy Support slot.

[Ultramarine vet]

Missile launchers are very effective heavy weapons. Very versatile. I give most of my tactical squads and devastator squads missile launchers. I do add in plasma cannons and lascannons in the devastator squads. Multi-meltas are alright for tactical squads, but a horrible idea for devastator squads. 

 

I rely heavily on missile launchers, and they work well for me.

 

To solve the painting problem, just assign heavy weapons to the squads after seeing what works best for you. Getting versatile weapons is another problem solver.

[GreyCrow]

Well, it all depends on what you want your squads to do.

 

Heavy Weapons in a Tactical squad allow the option to remain from afar and shoot the enemy rather than move an advance. For example, I like to keep my Tacticals very mobile, so I'm taking them 9 man with a special weapon :)

 

As Captain pointed, Devastators take up a Heavy choice, which gets cramped up really fast in the Marines codex. But, they are a very nice squad !

You have 2 ways of running Devastators :

- 5-6 men with 4 Heavy Weapons of the same choice

- 10 men with either 4 Heavy Weapons of the same choice or 2x2 weapons, so you can combat squad to get 2 units

 

I would never go for the Multi Melta in an infantry list, unless you plan on scouting them up front and stay there. It's a defensive weapon that has a short range, so short that you need moving. Otherwise, it's a perfectly capable weapon, but best mounted on vehicles.

Plasma Cannons are good for Tactical squads, because not only can you shoot infantry but you can shoot light tanks as well !

Heavy Bolters are another good choice but if you can spare the points, going for the plasma is more interesting :)

Missile launchers are versatile. Lascannons are decent if you want a long range anti-tank support. They work better in numbers however.

 

For Devastators, I think ML or LC are the superior choice. Long range so they are less threatened and they can bring support against tanks which is likely to lack in a Marine army.

I like the 4 ML team though, because it's a good support unit all accross the board. You'll lack punch against AV13, but there are meltas for that :p

 

Don't feel forced to paint the squad markings unless you really want to go for fluff.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Plasma and multimeltas for Tac Squads, las and missiles for Devs. Heavy bolsters....can go either way, I suppose, but I feel they need to be used in large numbers to be close to effective, so that would make them Devs for me, too.

[Excubitor]

Give them a mk.6 pad on the squad marking side - gives you an excuse not to choose!

[Azash]

This may sound pessimistic but paint them as tacticals. Now I built(building a full battle company so I did both) but devs have better alternatives and tacticals don't.

 

What other troop choice do we have that can field a las cannon? Exactly. Devs with 4x LC's are good but for cheaper than the cost of two dev squads you can take centurions with 3x TL LC's and 3x ML and have split fire and night fight and better saves. For less pts you can take a predator or rifleman dread.

 

So more often as your collection grows you will see the heavy slot has more competition and tons of good stuff where as you never leave home without your tacticals.

[Brother_Marius]

Good point Azash. However I do play Imperial Fists, so Devastator's are going to be a no-brainer to include in my army because they will have Tank Hunters. 

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Purely from a painting/identification standpoint:

 

Still give him the Dev marking because he is a heavy weapon Marine after all!

[Gideon999]

A note on plasma cannon dev's - these are nasty, and 4 PC's across the board from anything are a priority target even more so than 4 lascannons generally are.   If you are going plasma, I would highly recommend keeping those in tac squads as well or your devs will likley get primaried on the other guys first turn.

[GreyCrow]

I'm currently considering about making a Codex compliant force, which means 10 men squads with both the special and Heavy Weapons.

 

You guys suggested to go for the Multi-Melta and the Plasma Cannon, let me see if I get the logic straight :

- Multi-Melta : Good synchronization with the ranges of Boltguns, and eventually it will be in range of vehicles

- Plasma Cannon : By far the most interesting anti-infantry and doubles up as a light vehicle damage weapon

 

Of the other three options, why not the Lascannon, the Missile Launcher or the Heavy Bolter ? I can get that the Heavy Bolter is an unimpressive anti-infantry weapon when on Tacticals, but why would you not take the 2 other weapons ?

[Kilofix]

I use the same models for HH / 30K as I do for 40K.

 

I have my 30K 10-man Dev squads with Dev markings - that I then split into my Tacs for 40K.

 

Per OP's first post - last paragraph.

[Black Cohort]

I'm currently considering about making a Codex compliant force, which means 10 men squads with both the special and Heavy Weapons.

 

You guys suggested to go for the Multi-Melta and the Plasma Cannon, let me see if I get the logic straight :

- Multi-Melta : Good synchronization with the ranges of Boltguns, and eventually it will be in range of vehicles

- Plasma Cannon : By far the most interesting anti-infantry and doubles up as a light vehicle damage weapon

 

Of the other three options, why not the Lascannon, the Missile Launcher or the Heavy Bolter ? I can get that the Heavy Bolter is an unimpressive anti-infantry weapon when on Tacticals, but why would you not take the 2 other weapons ?

If you take a multi-melta you almost have to take a Melta gun or combat squad. Personally though I have been considering a multi-melta 10 man devestator squad in a drop pod. Yes you would sacrifice turn 1 shooting except snap firing, but watch your opponent panic when 10 devestators combat squad into cover and you now have 2 squads with 2 multi-meltas each in his deployment zone.

 

To me tactical marines should focus on killing infantry, so take weapons that excel at that, wasting your entire squad's fire to try to kill a vehicle with your one anti-tank shot is often full of disappointment. Thus too me the only options for tactical squads are missile launchers, plasma cannons or heavy bolters. Plasma cannons are great if your tactical squad is objective camping, paired with a plasma gun it can worry any heavy infantry that gets too close. But my tacticals are frequently moving, so the volume of shots from a heavy bolter combined with imperial fist chapter tactics makes it my personal weapon of choice and leaves my tactical marines firmly in infantry killing territory.

[GreyCrow]

Black Cohort, what you say make a lot of sense, especially for Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics. That set of rules screams speccing your Tacticals in infantry killing and your Devs in tank hunting Your MM Devas with IF Chapter Tactics will work very well : your opponent is likely to scramble away from the Melta range, and you would get Tank Hunters that will help for getting penetrating hits !

I was looking at it more with an Ultramarines Chapter Tactics in mind, but I can see a pattern there ! You're suggesting then that I either specialize all the special weapons for anti-tank in order to make a useful turn, or that I give their anti-infantry role a boost. In any case, both weapons should synergize for a purpose, and if I really want to give a weapon that can double up, then I go for a Missile Launcher for the heavy because it syncs well in terms of targets with any special weapon.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks

EDIT : Regarding Devastators, do mix and matching Heavy Weapons bring any kind of advantage ? I was thinking about 3ML/1LC (to get the signum on the LC), or 2ML/1PC/1LC (with the PC going in the ML combat squad if needed).

Not 4 different weapons, at least 3 with an anti tank capability and another one.

[shandwen]

Ive had success with runing laz cannons in five man tac squads as back field scoring, long range plinking units (running BT tactics for the free character). Devs would do laz better, but a super scoring cannon with four ablative wounds worked well for me. I would say that cheap is probably better, hence the multimelta being a good choice, but the heavy weapon is there for the ap value, and the chance to double out troops.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

If you take a multi-melta you almost have to take a Melta gun or combat squad.

 

 

Incorrect.  Multimeltas in Tactical Squads pair extremely well with plasma guns, and in 5th Edition, my standard Tac Squad loadout was plasma, combiplasma, and MM.  The reason is that the two weapons share very similar shooting and target profiles: both have a 24" max range but ideally want to be within 12"; both have a high-strength that works equally well against heavy infantry, monstrous creatures, and vehicles; and both have low AP values that benefit from shooting at the same.  The rest of the squad contributes bolters and frag grenades which boosts your anti-infantry firepower and can provide a thrown krak grenade which boosts your anti-"big stuff" firepower.  In fact, matching meltas with a multimelta is a bad idea because the weapons have two different max-effective ranges against armor (6" and 12"), which means you absolutely must be moving close to your targets to employ the regular meltas, reducing the multimelta to snap shots in most cases.

[Black Cohort]

 

 

If you take a multi-melta you almost have to take a Melta gun or combat squad.

 

 

Incorrect. Multimeltas in Tactical Squads pair extremely well with plasma guns, and in 5th Edition, my standard Tac Squad loadout was plasma, combiplasma, and MM. The reason is that the two weapons share very similar shooting and target profiles: both have a 24" max range but ideally want to be within 12"; both have a high-strength that works equally well against heavy infantry, monstrous creatures, and vehicles; and both have low AP values that benefit from shooting at the same. The rest of the squad contributes bolters and frag grenades which boosts your anti-infantry firepower and can provide a thrown krak grenade which boosts your anti-"big stuff" firepower. In fact, matching meltas with a multimelta is a bad idea because the weapons have two different max-effective ranges against armor (6" and 12"), which means you absolutely must be moving close to your targets to employ the regular meltas, reducing the multimelta to snap shots in most cases.

Different opinions then, yes both MM and plasma guns are 24in range but want to be in 12in range. But one is designed to take down heavy (AV13+) vehicles while the other is designed to kill heavy infantry and light vehicles. Yes both work VS monstrous creatures and if you have no better targets the MM can kill heavy infantry or light vehicles, but to me the two weapons should be targeting different things to be used most effectively. But that just my opinion.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And its my opinion that overkill is underrated.  Can a multimelta kill a Land Raider in one shot?  Sure, if you're lucky.  Can a multimelta kill a Rhino in one shot?  Three times out five, hell yeah; add in four plasma shots alongside it, and that's going to be one dead APC.  Just because a weapon is good at one thing doesn't make it less good at something else.

 

The issue you're arguing isn't one of target profiles, it's one of target priority.  Should you be sending a Tac Squad to destroy a Land Raider?  Probably not.  One or two melta shots might kill it, but you'll have better odds hitting it with grav-bikers, lascannon Devs, MM attack bike squad, or something else equally geared for the specific purpose of rapidly closing with and annihilating heavy armor which in general terms is not the mission of a Tactical Squad.  Take the MM for the utility and its matching fire to the plasma guns, not because you're hoping to one-off a battle tank.

[Acebaur]

Hmm, had never thought about doing a MM in with Plasma. I like that idea. How do you run the squad? As in do you combat squad? Use a rhino, etc?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Oh no, that's a squad that likes to run full in a Rhino.  I don't really run it anymore in the new 'dex -- I've gone mostly MSU with Razorbacks -- but it was pretty effective back in the day.

[Acebaur]

Oh no, that's a squad that likes to run full in a Rhino.  I don't really run it anymore in the new 'dex -- I've gone mostly MSU with Razorbacks -- but it was pretty effective back in the day.

 

 

Well actually I can run that squad as an MSU, a little more expensive because I have to pay for the Sword Brother, but I could always leave the combi off. Any merit to that?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, I suppose you could.  Personally I'd prefer not to because you need all those extra bolters to give you a fighting chance against light infantry masses, but as long as you have a back up plan to cover that eventuality, I don't see why you couldn't.

[GreyCrow]

So, I'm currently building a Tactical squad that will serve as a solid anvil and fire support against a wide variety of target. The goal is to have it be deployed as centrally as possible, and it will be footslogging.

 

So far, it will have a Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword and a Plasmagun. Now the question for the Heavy Weapon is : should I go for a Missile Launcher or Plasma Cannon ? The Plasma Cannon seems like a more natural fit and will really boost the damage output of the squad against infantry. But will it be enough to contribute against light vehicles and Monstruous Creatures, or am I better off with the Missile Launcher ?

 

I have plenty of Meltas elsewhere for all the anti heavy vehicle need, the goal is to have the squad be able to shoot at roughly 70% of the targets available and support the effort of the specialists sent to eradicate said targets !

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd once again caution against taking a power weapon, especially since as an "anvil" unit, I'm assuming they're meant as a firebase unit rather than something intended to close with the enemy.  You'd get more mileage out of a combi-plasma (or no particular special weapon at all!) for the sergeant on such a unit.  As for the heavy weapon, either the missile launcher or the plasma cannon should work equally well for you.  The missile launcher will give you extra range which is always nice for a firebase unit, but the plasma cannon gives you a much stronger anti-heavy infantry capability (and 36" range when combined with a forward-deployed unit still covers an excellent area of the board).  It's really up to you.  I would stay away from the others though, since they're either too specialized (lascannon), too short ranged (multimelta), or only good en masse (heavy bolter).

[Acebaur]

I wouldn't bother with a power sword and vet upgrade in a unit that you want to be shooting. It's 25 points that can be better spent elsewhere. If you want to give the Sgt an upgrade I would go with a combi plas, but nothing else. 

 

Otherwise I agree with Deus, the Lascannon is better when you can run multiple MSU's with it, and the Heavy bolter is only really useful if you are using a drop pod or a dev squad.