Heavy Weapons

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the comments guys ! I don't know why I wrote Veteran Sergeant as I don't have the points for it anyways, so it will be a regular Sergeant instead ;)

 

Definitely going for the Plasma Cannon, it's got more Oomph! than the Missile Launcher and I think I'll have enough sources of more reliable anti-tank elsewhere that I will benefit more from the Plasma Cannon than the Missile Launcher.

I'll definitely keep the Power Sword on the Sergeant though... I'm not short on points and I want flexible deployment options with them to counter my opponent's. So if I need to assault, I'd rather have the extra edge a Power Sword brings ;)

 

Especially now that you can keep the Heavy Weapon sitting and move the rest of the squad without being forced to Snap Fire. This is probably the biggest bonus to Marines 6th edition brought !

[Iron Father Ferrum]

. . . I still don't understand why you're keeping the power sword, especially if it's not a Veteran Sergeant.  Two measly power sword attacks isn't going to do squat to anyone who cares; if you're going to take a special CCW, you want that extra attack from being a Veteran, but if this is a shooting squad then you don't want it in CC at all anyway, so why not save yourself five points and take a combi-plasma instead?  If this is a thematic or fluffy thing I can understand that, but looking at it from a purely objective points-efficiency point of view, a power sword is one of the last things you're going to want.

[markham82]

Hi brothers

 

I'm wondering if there's a specific reason the heavy flamer is limited to two units.  Clever use of a devastator squad with 2/3 heavy flamers against a horde army can do some good I think or even 1 in a tac squad.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No particular reason we know; that's just how GW wrote it.

[knife&fork]

Hi brothers

 

I'm wondering if there's a specific reason the heavy flamer is limited to two units.  Clever use of a devastator squad with 2/3 heavy flamers against a horde army can do some good I think or even 1 in a tac squad.

 

With wound allocation being the way it is I think you rarely get to use more than 2 heavy flamers at the time.

I'd love to have the option to take it on tac and dev squads but if anti horde is what you're looking for you get a pretty good deal with either dual flamer assault squads or HF sternguard. With sternguard you also get the ignore cover bolters for 'free' which will work almost as long ranged flamers anyway. 

[Acebaur]

. . . I still don't understand why you're keeping the power sword, especially if it's not a Veteran Sergeant.  Two measly power sword attacks isn't going to do squat to anyone who cares; if you're going to take a special CCW, you want that extra attack from being a Veteran, but if this is a shooting squad then you don't want it in CC at all anyway, so why not save yourself five points and take a combi-plasma instead?  If this is a thematic or fluffy thing I can understand that, but looking at it from a purely objective points-efficiency point of view, a power sword is one of the last things you're going to want.

 

 

I agree with this 100% You don't want that unit in combat, ever. 2 plasma shots is far more useful than 2 PW attacks that will likely never see the light of day. The only time having a PW on a 1 base attack marine is useful is when it's in a Black Templar Crusader squad(likely kitted for CC). This is for several reasons. That unit is going to want to see combat, the guy who gets the PW can't be challenged so he can take a Power Axe to make those fewer attacks count more and he also keeps his bolter if you need some extra shooting. In a Tac squad, you will almost never assault with them, they are objective holders first and foremost and after that they are well "Tactical" support :lol:

[GreyCrow]

Well, I'll get actually 3 attacks at AP3 on the charge, which is always good to take especially if the unit is going to be tied up in combat with MEQ units. In addition, for a 15 points upgrade, it's likely going to kill as many people over the course of the game than a Plasma Cannon (less wounds inflicted, but no cover saves and AP3, and playing Raven Guard, so getting in the assault won't be much of a problem). Besides, no matter how I decide to play the squad, I still have some anti-MEQ capability. My meta is so diverse that standing and shooting is not necessarily the best option, and since I will use this squad as a big part of the anvil of my army, I want them to have a flexible playstyle. Against Guard or Tau, I really don't want that squad to be exchanging firepower. But the point of this thread is heavy weapons so...

 

Regarding why Heavy Flamers are limited to two units is both in order to keep the balance as well as to keep the fluff. Devastators are supposed to be a fire support base and allowing them to take Heavy Flamers would be the autobuild for any Devastator squad.

In addition, Heavy Flamer would be an auto include on any Tactical squad, along with a Flamer : So many kills before the assault while still getting the ability to charge.

 

The best weapons in the current meta are ones that are both medium-high AP and that ignore cover. Allowing standard/cheap Marines units to have a large access to them will be way too overpowered.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You keep missing the core concept of the argument, GreyCrow: it's a Tactical Squad.  It does NOT want to be in close combat.  And against Guard or Tau -- your specific examples of what you'd charge rather than shoot -- you don't NEED an AP3 close combat weapon since the strength of Marines in that situation is their better stat line across the board.  As for those three power sword attacks, let's look at some quick math.  Let's say you do decide to charge a fellow Marine squad, perhaps to clear an objective.  Three attacks on the charge needing 4+ to hit; let's say you get lucky, there's two hits.  Two rolls at 4+ to wound on average dice gives you one wound.  And since this is simultaneous with 95% of all other Space Marines, that one wounded man still gets to hit back.

 

Conversely, for fewer points, a rapid firing combi-plasma lands two hits and two wounds on average dice.

 

This is my final argument.  Take it or leave it.

[GreyCrow]

And this is where we agree to disagree :) A combi-plasma fires twice and that's it, giving cover saves to a smart opponent, while in melee there are no cover saves.

I don't think Tactical squads should be reserved to shooting, because they have average shooting capability much like they have average melee capabilities, but often then will be better at either than what they are dating in front. Example : I want to shoot hormagaunts, but I want to charge an Ork Boyz mob just to deny them the extra attacks they get on the charge, or I'd rater charge a fearless blob of 40 conscripts rather than have them shoot me in rapid fire for several rounds.

 

I'll leave it here as well, let's get back to the heavy weapons :)

[Acebaur]

I'm very confused as to why you'd charge a mob of boyz  with a tactical squad when shooting them would net far more kills. An average size squad is going to kill the tacticals anyway and you'll do far more damage by shooting them and then overwatching them the next turn than charging them. Furthermore against armies like guard and orks you don't gain much with a power sword as they have sub par armor saves anyway. 

 

But as was said we digress, so I will leave it here as well. 

[BearersOfSalvation]

Going back to the heavy weapons discussion, I think some people make too big of a deal out of the heavy weapon. People will pay 10 points for a 1-shot melta/plasma/flamer without a second thought, but feel like buying a 10-point (free in older editions) multi-melta means the squad needs to center everything it does in the game around maximizing the effect of that multi-melta. I don't feel like 10 points means that that marine squad needs to drive flat out to get next to a tank or the whole unit is wasted, I'm fine if the 10 points means my opponent drives his tank to avoid the squad, or if I get to take a potshot at the rear of the tank because he wanted the good armor facing my other weapons, or I get to do a bit more damage in a turn or two of shooting at a tough unit.