Tiberius Cato Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I was looking at fleshing out a legion for when start collecting models for 30K army after I fnish my Shadow Wardens (which won't take very long because they possess less than 130 bodies). As much as I love the Sons of Dorn I really would like playing my own legion better. So what i'm asking is, would it be permissible to create my own fluff for the XI legion or am I in a position where I have to play the original 18? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It might depend on your local gaming meta. Nothing says you can't, but the local crowd might make it not worth it if they are not accommodating. This website has gotten a lot more lenient than it used to be, though in general there is still that need for the idea to knock off some socks to get as much traction as a normal 40k DIY. But if there is a success story out there, nobody embodies that more than our very own Athrawes' current II Legion project. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3740490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gameos7 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yes, it's completely fine to make the II and the XI legion, though, it can be just as good or just as bad as any other IA, as it is still an IA. It'll also require more creativity in coming up with ideas and how you use them, since you don't have a base gene-seed, parent chapter, etc. The primarchs are / appear to be (can't remember which right now) each based off of 1 of the 20 major arcana tarot cards, and this website explains them. The two cards that don't have a primarch beneath the name of the cards, those being II (The High Priestess) and X (Fortune), are the two unused cards i.e. the cards of the two missing primarchs. That is, if you even choose to base your primarch off of this system. You may also want to look at some other peoples missing primarch/legion ideas, notably Athrawes' II legion (linked above by Cormac), the Desert Fangs and their primarch Rachnus Rageous, and the Sky Serpent's primarch Tialoc Ekans. Choosing a civilisation or multiple similar civilisations to base the legion off would also be good, preferably one/s which haven't been taken by the original 18 legions. Things that come to mind are the Middle/South American ones like the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas. You could also do an Asian civilisation, like Ancient China and/or Japan (I believe that's what Athrawes is doing for his II legion). Russian Marines? Maybe even Aboriginal Australians and/or the Maori people from New Zealand? Lots of different civilisations to choose, if you even choose to base them off of a civilisation. It may also be in your best interest to give some mystery with the chapter, as they are one of the Missing Legions. And remember that one of the two missing legions probably fell to chaos, though you could do something cool if they both fell to chaos but one of the two worshipping Malal/Malice (whatever his name is), though that's up to you. Also remember that it is implied that the missing legions were deleted deliberately, so that needs to somehow happen, unless you keep that a mystery. Though some (probably most actually) people would dislike it, you could also have him (her? Now that would be very funny) be raised by xenos, though that might be weird. Here, here and here are some more links from Athrawes if you want to see more stuff on how he's doing it. You may also want to read the Octaguide 2.0, the Guide to DIYing and =][= On Do It Yourself (DIY) Discussions =][=, as well as topics with lots of replies and lots of views. That's about it for the moment, I hope this helped somehow, if you even decide to use this stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3740561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I think going with the Aztecs would be perfect with the tarot idea, they match up nicely with the Fortune card. There's a lot here that I'll have to read, reread, and reread again befre I start any work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3740959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 You might consider some collaboration with Athrawes, as he has produced some really stellar stuff. Also (small) soapbox time: I believe firmly that the missing legions were precisely left that way so that players could create their own fluff involving primarchs and such. Only with the advent of 30k has the issue become more thorny. That these missing legions seem intended to be filled by the players means it always upsets me when someone basing it off of these two legions is discounted purely because of their source of inspiration. End soapbox. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3740974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfkry Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Brother Athrawes is doing something pretty damned special with his second legion....so if you plan on it being as awesome as his go for it and post pics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3740980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I don't have the skill to hand sculpt my own primarch like he did, but i'll try my hardest to make the minis really good, i'll really have to practise to ensure I present you all with quality models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3740985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Athrawes actually commissioned it. Someone else was paid to build it for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'll have to look into that then when I make sizeable progress with this project. Anyways, I am no heretic, but the XI legion might very well fall to heresy. If I mix in some Age of Exploration Spanish themes in I think I can represent the gods of Chaos in the legion. It could be that there is an internal struggle as well(that ultimately leads to a legion decimating itself, who knows!) The Aztecs perfomed many sacrifices to honour their gods. One of which was the sacrifice of warriors to appease the god of war Huitzilopochtli, who is said to only be able to go to war when a sufficient sacrifice was fulfilled. There is also the god Tezcatlipoca, the god of sorcerers and divination. Then to include the Spanish themes, there is the quest for Eldorado. The fabled city of gold would bring enough wealth to a man to mke him the most powerful man in the world, creating an intense greed amongst many conquistadors. Then there is Ponce de Leon's famous search for La Agua de Vida, the fountain of youth, practical immortality. The latter two can easily be warped to be more fitting to the Chaos pantheon with ease, while i'm sure unsatiable greed is pretty good anyways for Slaanesh, it can be amplified. And perhaps the fountain of youth is more akin to Nurgle's spring of bile, granting the imbiber immortality, but at the cost of become a plague-ridden, festering zombie. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 You might consider some collaboration with Athrawes, as he has produced some really stellar stuff. Also (small) soapbox time: I believe firmly that the missing legions were precisely left that way so that players could create their own fluff involving primarchs and such. Only with the advent of 30k has the issue become more thorny. That these missing legions seem intended to be filled by the players means it always upsets me when someone basing it off of these two legions is discounted purely because of their source of inspiration. End soapbox. While I agree and share in your belief, that the Missing Legions are there specifically to provide hobbyists with the opportunity of crafting their own individual Legion and/or Primarch, I disagree that it was the expansion of the Heresy/Great Crusade era through the efforts of Black Library and Forge World (as I assume you mean by 'advent of 30k') that made the issue thorny. At least here on the B&C, back when I was a lurker, the Missing Legions were most taboo before Black Library and Forge World began expanding upon it. It was when Horus Heresy books first started being released that I noticed people remembering the long-forgotten original intent of the Missing Legions, and began putting less of an emphasis on preventing someone else's DIY from making waves within their own headcanon (which is really how I feel that the taboos against the Missing Legions, 2nd Founding, Traitor gene-seed and the like were all about). That's still around, but it's become much more manageable and, in my opinion, accurate. It's problem was that it was over-zealous and too exclusive, but it's general intent was sound. Such as the general desire that I have seen in Athrawes' project thread to keep his II Legion as something that would make sense will eventually be gone and forgotten, because inevitably the Missing Legions do become an unknown, mysterious and avoided subject, in-universe. Really, though, this is the best time that someone can make a Missing Legion. Now, to be more on-topic: You should look up the Rainbow Warriors. They have an Aztec theme, if I recall correctly (though now that I think of it, that might have been somebody's personal take and not "official," insofar as that goes). There's a number of ways you can go with that, that I think could work. One is to try and avoid the connection, because the only thing the Missing Legions pass on is their absence. The other would be to try for a subtle (and I would recommend you hype the subtlety to 11) connection that might make people think that the Rainbow Warriors are a potential 'successor.' The last one would be interesting if done well, but I think would be the hardest to do well. But hey, if you do go that route, it will go a long way to explaining the grudge match between them and the Sisters. If the whole Aztec theme that I am thinking of for the Rainbow Warriors is actually just somebody's DIY take on them, then you can ignore that suggestion. Or, you can accept their DIY take as part of your headcanon and run with it. My own headcanon has quite a bit of other people's creations running about, and part of the purpose of the Liber Cluster thread was to get people interested in doing just that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Fun exercise/shameless plug: Picture your XI Legion clearly in your mind.Now read the Sons of =][=DELETED=][= (I can no longer change the colours of text in my posts, how odd ) linked in my signature.Pick one word, and one alone, to replace every instance of =][=DELETED=][= with. Enjoy a hearty chuckle or two. EDIT: I wholeheartedly endorse the creation of DIY legions, so long as the creator is prepared to take some constructive C&C on anything that sticks out as odd. Simply put, the White Hawks were originally the II Legion. It was only when I realised I had basically nothing beyond a name and general disposition for their Primarch that I made them a DIY Chapter instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Now, to be more on-topic: You should look up the Rainbow Warriors. They have an Aztec theme, if I recall correctly (though now that I think of it, that might have been somebody's personal take and not "official," insofar as that goes). There's a number of ways you can go with that, that I think could work. One is to try and avoid the connection, because the only thing the Missing Legions pass on is their absence. The other would be to try for a subtle (and I would recommend you hype the subtlety to 11) connection that might make people think that the Rainbow Warriors are a potential 'successor.' The last one would be interesting if done well, but I think would be the hardest to do well. But hey, if you do go that route, it will go a long way to explaining the grudge match between them and the Sisters. If the whole Aztec theme that I am thinking of for the Rainbow Warriors is actually just somebody's DIY take on them, then you can ignore that suggestion. Or, you can accept their DIY take as part of your headcanon and run with it. My own headcanon has quite a bit of other people's creations running about, and part of the purpose of the Liber Cluster thread was to get people interested in doing just that. To answer the Aztec theme that some of us Rainbow Warrior players have applied to them, it's something that isn't "offical". Philip S had made his version of them with an Aztec theme long before I came to using that as a base for my own was a coincidence. However, it does have merit applying to them. The Chapter is generally regarded as a namesake for the Green Peace ship that was sank in the 1980's, which was itself named after a Native American/Hopi legend "The Warriors of the Rainbow". I can't answer for Philip S, but the reason why I chose an Aztec theme was mainly because there wasn't any "canon" Chapters out there with one The Rainbow Warriors themselves are confirmed to be Ultramarine successors (the source being the audio drama "Mission:Purge"). That doesn't mean that you can't/shouldn't use an Aztec theme for your missing XI Legion. No one, myself included has any claim to such a theme exclusively, in fact, I'd love to see more Chapters springing up with it and I'd certainly love to see a missing Legion based around it! As for the grudge match with the Sisters, as far as I know it all stems from this picture. Many gamers have then assumed that because the Sister is attacking the Rainbow Warrior they as a Chapter are traitors of some form. My own personal belief is: Many Loyalist factions have at some point attacked each other. Space Wolves and Dark Angels. The Badab War, Space Wolves and the Grey Knights, etc, etc. Most if not all have been to some degree or other been down to a misunderstanding. If GW decides to (finally) give the Rainbow Warriors more fluff than they currently have, we may find out. Until then, it's just something that will remain a mystery t;:dr - If you want an Aztec themed missing Legion, then go for it! I'm hardly an expert on all things Aztec, but you can be sure I'll be lurking taking an interest in what you come up with Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm really like the idea of having an Aztec legion, it hits right at home for me aswell, due to the fact my family traces direct lineage to Emperor Moctezuma II. I have this really neat idea for making an elite warrior corps comprised of two parts. Essentially vanguard and sternguard vet equivalents, they would be Jaguar and Eagle warriors; masters of melee and ranged combat, respectively. I am still debating whether I want the legion to be loyalist or heretics, both could work going off the Aztec pantheon. The chief God worshipped is that of the sun, the name escapes me at the moment; but the darker gods, like that of death, war, sorcery, and merchants (aka greed) or also very important. So from the get go there already is a balance issue between worship of the Sun God (Emperor) and the many other dieties (Chaos). If this sounds a bit dumb or not suiting for something the scope of a legion feel free to shoot down my ideas, rip out my heart, and crush my dreams. It honestly won't send me running away all spaghetti armed, wailing like an infant. Some of the best criticism comes from scathing replies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Whilst in Aztec mythology, there is/are more than one Sun God, one that I've used for my Rainbow Warriors is Inti. I quite like the idea that the Legion was split between what to believe in - light or dark. It could be what results in the Legion disappearing (maybe the Legion destroyed itself because of those beliefs) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Honestly, I would avoid such things as 'traitor' or 'loyal' or 'heretic.' Those things are from the Horus Heresy and beyond. By then your Legion is not just gone, but forgotten. My personal opinion would be to divorce their deities from the 'actual' gods, like the Ruinous Four, Daemons (who are more often those seen as Gods by those unaware of the Warp) or the Emperor. I think that their beliefs can stand up well enough on its own. That said, while reading what you wrote, I got in mind a Legion whose home world readily took to comparing their sun god to the Emperor, kind of like how the Mechanicum compared Him to the Omnissiah. With that as the base, you could set this Legion up to be an early warning of the threat the Word Bearers represent to the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I just want to offer something, there is the popular fan theory that the ultras may have absorbed loyalist remnants of the missing legions. Considering they are the founders of the Rainbow Warriors, it might be that the Rainbow Warriors are in fact successors "genetically" of your legion. Just something to think about for tie ins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Just to clarify, that rumor is from The First Heretic, is said jokingly by a Word Bearers who isn't even 'in the loop,' and has been clarified by the author as being in no way something to consider as 'true.' Kind of like how us fans tend to make overblown theories about other factions as a way of making fun of those other factions. The Word Bearer was doing that to the Ultramarines. That said, since Missing Legion ideas do, in many ways, exist as 'alternate realities,' in that there are countless different iterations of only two Legions, Teetengee's suggestion is a valid one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gameos7 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 If you haven't stumbled upon them already, the Blood Jaguars are an Aztec chapter descended from the Flesh Tearers. They're probably worth reading if you're doing an Aztec legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Honestly, I would avoid such things as 'traitor' or 'loyal' or 'heretic.' Those things are from the Horus Heresy and beyond. By then your Legion is not just gone, but forgotten. My personal opinion would be to divorce their deities from the 'actual' gods, like the Ruinous Four, Daemons (who are more often those seen as Gods by those unaware of the Warp) or the Emperor. I think that their beliefs can stand up well enough on its own. That said, while reading what you wrote, I got in mind a Legion whose home world readily took to comparing their sun god to the Emperor, kind of like how the Mechanicum compared Him to the Omnissiah. With that as the base, you could set this Legion up to be an early warning of the threat the Word Bearers represent to the Imperium. II thought that I saw somewhere that the missing legions particpated in the Horus Heresy, atleast in it's earliest stages; being long gone by the seige of Terra. Also, I too had thought of the planet believing the Emperor was their sun god (which would also be based off a historical event) and pledging unyeilding loyalty to the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 There was an ongoing belief based off of a misunderstanding of the statement that fully half followed Horus, but with the Heresy and Great Crusade being expanded upon, we now know for certain that, by the time the Heresy began, they were already gone and forgotten. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Ah, thanks for clearing that up. So just for clarification, the legion perfoming human sacrifices wouldn't get them labeled as daemon worshippers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gameos7 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Maybe. For that you might wanna read the When is 'Different' Heretical section of the Guide to DIYing. There's also the emperor who has 1000 (I think it's 1000) psykers sacrificed to sustain him, and even though that's post-heresy it's after all the chaos crap happening to them, so before it happened and as long as it's "For the Emperor!" it should be alright. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Alright cool. I may have a (very) rough draft up tomorrow. I eagerly await it being torn apart for it's many fallacies-to-be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Ah, thanks for clearing that up. So just for clarification, the legion perfoming human sacrifices wouldn't get them labeled as daemon worshippers? They might not be Daemon worshipers simply for human sacrifice, but it is possible that they could be branded as such for it, if it was known about. But I actually think that would be a good thing for you. One aspect of missing legions that seem to be the most difficult to do well, if past attempts are anything to go by, is the Legion's end. It does happen, and how that end is done will go a long way to seeing the Legion accepted or not by the local crowd (whether here or in real life). The worst offenders try to work around it or ignore it. Like sending the Legion away, or explaining that the Emperor kept them as a last resort, final weapon that is still out there fighting on. You see that a lot, and it is pretty cringeworthy. But if you avoid that, and provide a real, tangible explanation for the Legion and Primarch's erasure and eventual nonexistence, then you have something much more presentable. I can already see an end like that with the religious beliefs. We know the Emperor locks down on such things, we know the Word Bearers went to great lengths following their punishment to seem as if they took the lesson to heart, and we know that Lorgar had a special relationship with at least one of the Missing. A Legion that also worships the Emperor, but differs from the Word Bearers in that the Emperor is more a proxy for a pre-existing, more barbaric faith than the true object of the fate, and is censored and eradicated for its growing unwillingness to change, could go a long way to explaining how that sort of situation could arise. Of course, it is early in the game, so it is up to to you if that kind of end is suitable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 I actually really like that idea, Brother Cormac. Perhaps the Emperor gives them an ultimatum; "stop sacrificing these people, or you and your legion shall be erased from history." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293513-creating-the-xi-legion-is-it-heresy/#findComment-3741400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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