Blood Angel to be main character in Master of Mankind

[Kol Saresk]

Serpent Beneath worked out pretty well. And that's because the reader, not the character was kept in the dark.

 

That was one thing I've been noticing lately. Many novels nowadays do too much foreshadowing. For example, the Dresden Files. When someone says something profound about something really bad, like say Murphy saying that if you use a sword wrong then it'll shatter like glass, then you're just waiting for one of the Swords of the Cross to get broken because it was used for the wrong reason.

 

And well, 40K lacks subtlety. That's one reason so many people flock towards Abnett's Inquisitor series and Legion and Serpent Beneath. We expect the elephant in a china shop but instead we get this intrigue that just pulls us in an leaves wanting more. And like the fluffheads we are, we want it.

 

Now, I ain't saying the usually more direct stories aren't bad. Sometimes you just want to go all out and be the elephant smashing through the china shop.

 

That is not the Alpha Legion. They're the shadow of a shadow moving within a shadow. And the best way I've seen their stories told is when it looks at the reader's omniscient perspective of the background at large and whispers in your ear "Everything you know is a lie."

[Inquisitor Kravin]

It would be extraordinarily difficult to write a novel with an Alpha Legion member as a central point of view, without damaging one of the main points of interest for the new (relatively, been many years now since Legion lobbed) fluff about them. That is, just what exactly are the AL really up to, and why?

 

Actually, no, I'll be more specific. You could write a story from a grunt's eye view if you assumed that they are largely kept in the dark about why they're doing the things they do. That could be quite an interesting tale of frustration warring with devotion and duty. But also kinda contrary to the whole "we don't rely on central guidance, cut off our head and two more grow" idea.

 

Telling a story from the perspective of someone who *should* know what the hell they're doing and why would be very challenging. I think Rob Sanders did just about as much as was possible in that regard in The Serpent Beneath. If you do too much more than that, it's very easy to fall from being mysterious and intriguing to just passing off the reader because the narrative as conveyed is obviously overly selective in terms of what is going on. Could be done, but would be a massive challenge.

 

Agreed. For my own story I tried seeing it through the eyes of a relatively new centurion level Strike Commander. He knows his missions. He knows what is expected of him and the decentralised command structure works in that he gets given his objectives but its up to him and his sergeants to figure out how to actually achieve the objectives and in this way they maintain flexibility and operational security. The problems come when he has to work alongside an unknown company. Where an Ultramarine company commander is assigned to work with an unknown counterpart he can probably pull up a pretty comprehensive service history of his new comrade and get a feel for what kind of guy he is. This AL line officer knows nothing about his counterpart. He has objectives that are not to be disclosed to the other officer and he has to operate under an alias. Obviously since he has to lie to this other guy he assumes the other guy has to lie to him and yet they are meant to work together through life or death situations.

 

But this is waaaaay off-topic so I'm just going to add. Master of Mankind sounds like it might be alright (trying to backpedal on Friday's unbridled fanboyism).

[DarKnight]

Serpent Beneath worked out pretty well. And that's because the reader, not the character was kept in the dark.

 

That was one thing I've been noticing lately. Many novels nowadays do too much foreshadowing. For example, the Dresden Files. When someone says something profound about something really bad, like say Murphy saying that if you use a sword wrong then it'll shatter like glass, then you're just waiting for one of the Swords of the Cross to get broken because it was used for the wrong reason.

 

And well, 40K lacks subtlety. That's one reason so many people flock towards Abnett's Inquisitor series and Legion and Serpent Beneath. We expect the elephant in a china shop but instead we get this intrigue that just pulls us in an leaves wanting more. And like the fluffheads we are, we want it.

 

Now, I ain't saying the usually more direct stories aren't bad. Sometimes you just want to go all out and be the elephant smashing through the china shop.

 

That is not the Alpha Legion. They're the shadow of a shadow moving within a shadow. And the best way I've seen their stories told is when it looks at the reader's omniscient perspective of the background at large and whispers in your ear "Everything you know is a lie."

That's true and a good point, but that gets old. It reminds me of the show, 'Lost', it got to a point where the writers just seemed to get off on making sure everything we thought was right was wrong, with no overall plan for the story or characters other than that. It's quickly reaching a point where every time the AL is featured in a story there's a *sigh* because you just know there's an epilogue where the character you thought was dead/failed their objective, ACTUALLY achieved it because Alpha Legion.

[b1soul]

I thought it was more that the Alphas wanted to see where the Scar's loyalties lay.  Basically to let the Scars hear both side's request then watch how the Scars react to the conflicting information.  That way they could include them in their plots within plots.  Because when you are scheamers on the Alpha Legion's level any unknowns must become knowns.  Even known unknowns is to much of a gamble.

 

...so other legions are invariably dull-witted compared to the ingenious AL. Other legions with their limited intelligence have no means of comprehending (never mind countering) the AL's mindblowing master plan. 

 

Am I the only one who finds this treatment of the AL to be incredibly grating?

[Emperor's Furor]

I think Deliverance Lost did make Corax and the Raven Guard look slightly dim witted, since then the Novellas have tried to overcome this, but Deliverance Lost really did a number on them for me.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Serpent Beneath worked out pretty well. And that's because the reader, not the character was kept in the dark.

 

That was one thing I've been noticing lately. Many novels nowadays do too much foreshadowing. For example, the Dresden Files. When someone says something profound about something really bad, like say Murphy saying that if you use a sword wrong then it'll shatter like glass, then you're just waiting for one of the Swords of the Cross to get broken because it was used for the wrong reason.

 

And well, 40K lacks subtlety. That's one reason so many people flock towards Abnett's Inquisitor series and Legion and Serpent Beneath. We expect the elephant in a china shop but instead we get this intrigue that just pulls us in an leaves wanting more. And like the fluffheads we are, we want it.

 

Now, I ain't saying the usually more direct stories aren't bad. Sometimes you just want to go all out and be the elephant smashing through the china shop.

 

That is not the Alpha Legion. They're the shadow of a shadow moving within a shadow. And the best way I've seen their stories told is when it looks at the reader's omniscient perspective of the background at large and whispers in your ear "Everything you know is a lie."

That's true and a good point, but that gets old. It reminds me of the show, 'Lost', it got to a point where the writers just seemed to get off on making sure everything we thought was right was wrong, with no overall plan for the story or characters other than that. It's quickly reaching a point where every time the AL is featured in a story there's a *sigh* because you just know there's an epilogue where the character you thought was dead/failed their objective, ACTUALLY achieved it because Alpha Legion.

Eh, yes and no. There've only been seven events involving the Alpha Legion to my knowledge. Legion, Deliverance Lost, Serpent Beneath, Unremembered Empire, Face of Treachery, Scars and the one where they were hunting down a Wolf who had thought he managed to kill Alpharius.

 

Unremembered Empire and Scars were pretty straightforward with the Alpha Legion taking an "enemy to be killed" stance. Face of Treachery was the first "Ooh, the Alpha Legion can do everything!" Story with Deliverance Lost being the "They're great at infiltrating, they really are! They just suck at it in this story" story. Legion and The Serpent Beneath* are really the only ones that had a high level of intrigue involved that actively kept the reader in the dark.

 

 

Note: My personal opinion. Feel free to disagree and/or ignore.

 

*I had a brain fart and typed down Unremembered Empire for some reason.

[Aegnor]

And Serpent Beneath. High level of intrigue with reader deliberately misled by the author. Not knocking Sanders, he pulled it off in an enjoyable way, but as mentioned before, I think that's a tough approach to pull off, and one that will get tired quickly.

[DarKnight]

 

I thought it was more that the Alphas wanted to see where the Scar's loyalties lay.  Basically to let the Scars hear both side's request then watch how the Scars react to the conflicting information.  That way they could include them in their plots within plots.  Because when you are scheamers on the Alpha Legion's level any unknowns must become knowns.  Even known unknowns is to much of a gamble.

 

...so other legions are invariably dull-witted compared to the ingenious AL. Other legions with their limited intelligence have no means of comprehending (never mind countering) the AL's mindblowing master plan. 

 

Am I the only one who finds this treatment of the AL to be incredibly grating?

 

I think the story in HH: Betrayal was perfect for the Alpha Legion, super competent but displaying that even THEE MOST well laid of plans can be ruined by the vagaries of fate.

[Emperor's Furor]

It shouldn't really take extreme chance to overcome the Alpha Legion's plans though.

[DarKnight]

It shouldn't really take extreme chance to overcome the Alpha Legion's plans though.

Perhaps, but they had the upper hand by being the ones that initiated hostilities, I'd say the Iron Warriors and Mechanicum more than acquitted themselves well given the circumstances.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

It shouldn't really take extreme chance to overcome the Alpha Legion's plans though.

Perhaps, but they had the upper hand by being the ones that initiated hostilities, I'd say the Iron Warriors and Mechanicum more than acquitted themselves well given the circumstances.

 

I personally thought opening fire on the Iron Warriors was a bad idea, could of tried to pass it off as some sort of quelling of a rebellion to disguise their true motives, opening fire on the Iron Warriors only for the Iron Warriors to simply ram them was a bit stupid on the part of the Alpha Legion and turned the whole encounter into something that could of been averted.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I suppose that might be the point. When unpredictable events occur, the Alpha's don't have their schemes to fall back on, and hence can and do make mistakes.

[Stonerhino]

 

I thought it was more that the Alphas wanted to see where the Scar's loyalties lay.  Basically to let the Scars hear both side's request then watch how the Scars react to the conflicting information.  That way they could include them in their plots within plots.  Because when you are scheamers on the Alpha Legion's level any unknowns must become knowns.  Even known unknowns is to much of a gamble.

 

...so other legions are invariably dull-witted compared to the ingenious AL. Other legions with their limited intelligence have no means of comprehending (never mind countering) the AL's mindblowing master plan. 

 

Am I the only one who finds this treatment of the AL to be incredibly grating?

 

Actually I was saying that the White Scars are way to dangerous to leave as an unknown.  Even more so when they are about to help you attack another Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

And if the Paramar strategizing is normal of the Alpha Legion's planning, then at any point and time something can go wrong. For example, a Black Cube.

 

It also means they rely on everything to go right. For example, plot armor saying that the Raven Guard are just too special to notice when they have impostors in their midst.

[DarKnight]

And if the Paramar strategizing is normal of the Alpha Legion's planning, then at any point and time something can go wrong. For example, a Black Cube.

 

It also means they rely on everything to go right. For example, plot armor saying that the Raven Guard are just too special to notice when they have impostors in their midst.

And this is the rabbit hole authors have gone down with the AL, was actually taking Paramar in tact the real plan within the plan?

[b1soul]

More on topic...

 

I really want to read more about the Custodes. I wonder if Valdor will be prominent in MoM

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Every time I reference the HH Weekender A D-B seems to pop up and say, "Kinda, sorta..." so bear in mind this is my understanding based on memory of a conversation about two busy months ago.

MoM will (potentially) show us the Emperor through the eyes of lots of people at all different levels of Imperial society from Custodes through Astartes and regular humans right down to a servitor. I particularly like the servitor. The idea is that the Emperor is such an amazing presence that when he passes even a servitor that is normally oblivious to everything except its assigned task will feel a surge of awe.

 

I think Valdor is very likely to appear though how prominently is yet to be seen.

[b1soul]

Every time I reference the HH Weekender A D-B seems to pop up and say, "Kinda, sorta..." 

 

Any chance of gracing us with a re-write of your Weekender MoM write-up? 

[Inquisitor Kravin]

My pleasure. I've started it but it's going to be a long one. Hopefully I'll be able to post it by tomorrow.

[b1soul]

My pleasure. I've started it but it's going to be a long one. Hopefully I'll be able to post it by tomorrow.

Yesss...practically salivating

[daveNYC]

More on topic...

 

I really want to read more about the Custodes. I wonder if Valdor will be prominent in MoM

 

They need a little something in there about him.  The ending of A Thousand Sons demands more information on Valdor.

 

Hopefully MoM has a few tidbits from the viewpoint of the Emperor.  Nothing major, but an intro paragraph every few chapters might give a nice contrast between how the Emperor sees people and himself vs. how people see the Emperor.  Definitely a situation where 'less is more'.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

It shouldn't really take extreme chance to overcome the Alpha Legion's plans though.

 

Perhaps, but they had the upper hand by being the ones that initiated hostilities, I'd say the Iron Warriors and Mechanicum more than acquitted themselves well given the circumstances.

I personally thought opening fire on the Iron Warriors was a bad idea, could of tried to pass it off as some sort of quelling of a rebellion to disguise their true motives, opening fire on the Iron Warriors only for the Iron Warriors to simply ram them was a bit stupid on the part of the Alpha Legion and turned the whole encounter into something that could of been averted.

Are you saying that perhaps the Alpha Legion's hubris made them arrogantly assume they could out-dakka a ship full of mud-eaters? Is the wind whispering balance or is that a comm bead in my ear ;)

[b1soul]

 

Hopefully MoM has a few tidbits from the viewpoint of the Emperor. 

 

 

I believe MoM won't have anything from the viewpoint of the Emperor. If we do get something from Valdor, it'll probably be Valdor's opinion of the Emperor and maybe a bit of background on Valdor (maybe some of his memories) 

[Inquisitor Kravin]

 

My pleasure. I've started it but it's going to be a long one. Hopefully I'll be able to post it by tomorrow.

Yesss...practically salivating

 

 

Ask and ye shall receive: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293819-horus-heresy-weekender-big-review-resurrected/

[daveNYC]

 

 

Hopefully MoM has a few tidbits from the viewpoint of the Emperor. 

 

 

I believe MoM won't have anything from the viewpoint of the Emperor. If we do get something from Valdor, it'll probably be Valdor's opinion of the Emperor and maybe a bit of background on Valdor (maybe some of his memories) 

 

 

Harumph.