Flyer:How many is too many?

[Holyflak]

Hi all!

 

I was running through the C:SM and I came across this interesting tactic under the Storm Talon entry.  "...here, it is the principal attack vehicle.  The remainder of the Chapter`s rapid moving elements act as escorts and outriders..."  I`m thinking I would like to incorporate flyers in my army but how many flyers is too many flyers before it gets cheesey?  I would love to have Two Storm Talons and a Stormraven gunship but I`m worried that it might be seen as obscene.  What are people`s opinions on flyers in general here?  My local gaming shop is full of people who`s first language isn`t English so it`s hard to ask their opinion as the language gets mixed up a lot.  

 

Thanks so much!

[knife&fork]

It's entirely subjective, so hard to tell. Some people still freak out over a single one. If you drop in there how many flyers do you see in play?

Personally I don't think 2 talons and a raven is over the top.

 

From a gameplay perspective 3-4 flyers is about the sweet spot for the good ones, mostly thinking necron scythes. Anything more than that and you not only start to hurt in terms of what starts on the table but it also becomes difficult actually placing the damn things on the table! 

 

If you are worried that 3 might be too much why not start with one or two? Even a list devoid of any anti-air can deal with a single flyer.

[Hellios]

I have an AirCav IG army... Everything is mounted... I even take Sky Talons for my sentinels... So I take at least 6 flyers at 1,500pts. The real problem is moving them around on the table.

[maartendp]

I run two talons and a raven and have never had any opponents complain that it's to much

[GreyCrow]

More than 3 becomes less interesting for you I feel, because that start to take up quite a few points that could be valuable elsewhere on the ground.

 

More importantly, unless the opponent is playing a really straightforward style and concentrates his forces in an advancing gunline, it's relatively easy to force the Marines fliers to lack good targets and force them into Hover mode, making them vulnerable. The same goes for the Raven, as soon as you want to disembark, you get exposed. Of course, you could try the paratroopers' rule but it's risky.

 

1 Raven and 2 Talons is a decent force and not too cheesy. I play with a Talon constantly and it's never been complained on by my opponent, because its damage output is like a buffed up Landspeeder Typhoon, and you pay the points for it. I'm adding a Raven to my force by the end of the month however, let's see if they complain more :D

[Sheesh Mode]

In my experience flyers are much like the psychic phase: either go big or go home. As a chaos player I pay no attention to one or two flyers, they simply do not do enough damage to warrant diverting firepower for the chance to hit them. However, a mass aerial offensive will leave me no choice. Furthermore, real-world military strategy states wars are won through air superiority. Examples include The Gulf War, World War 2, and The Korean War. 

 

This is false on rare occasions see: The Iraq War, The Vietnam War, The Bay of Pigs. Which were either do to a prolonged campaign with restrictions to engagement against an unconventional enemy or a general failure of ground forces to hold their position. In the Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghani wars we can see the effect of superior air support, particularly in the initial stages of the war. Even today, air support provides an edge in Afghanistan against a more numerous and mobile ground force. (See: The Koringal Valley) 

 

So it is up to you. Games workshop has managed to make flyers dangerous, but difficult to master. There are clear advantages to their power: Storm Ravens are one of - if not the - best flyers in the game and in today's edition with maelstrom objectives a fast mobile and hard hitting army is king. It depends on your play style. 

[minigun762]

I think it's less about being cheesy and more about having too much of your army off the table.

 

Considering two Talons and a Raven is a minimum of 420 points so I wouldn't use all three in anything less than a 1500 point game.

[Ishagu]

I have run 4 flyers in a list.

 

Sometimes a Raven is enough by itself...

 

Talons are underrated for sure, though.

[Axagoras]

my 2 talons cant kill any enemy fliers, I have been tempted to just run a storm eagle roc pattern

[GreyCrow]

What are your Talons packing Axagoras ? Skyhammers ?

[Ishagu]

Imo skyhammers suck. They are just a 3 hit auto cannon and only marginally better than a TL heavy bolter. Yes it's great against rear armour on some flyers but the assault cannon is enough for that.

 

Much better off with a Lascannon. I can't count the number of times my Las has destroyed the weapon on a Heldrake or got that last ap2 hit against a Riptide or IC.

[minigun762]

Imo skyhammers suck. They are just a 3 hit auto cannon and only marginally better than a TL heavy bolter. Yes it's great against rear armour on some flyers but the assault cannon is enough for that.

 

Much better off with a Lascannon. I can't count the number of times my Las has destroyed the weapon on a Heldrake or got that last ap2 hit against a Riptide or IC.

I feel like the Raven is a far better platform for the TLLC, as it's normally ripe with other single shot high strength low AP weapons.

 

The Talon's default TLAC makes me think of it as a flex weapon with a focus on light armor and infantry with passable effectiveness against 3+. So I see either missile option as a more synergistic combination.

[Ming]

The 2 talon 1 raven formation would be the way to go then.

[Holyflak]

I took a look around and there is the Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing.  You can get a Storm Raven with 2 Stormtalons as escorts.  If you take the formation they all come in together on the same roll and the Storm Raven is granted strafing run if at least one stormtalon is alive.  Since this wouldn`t take up heavy support and fast attack slots would this be an interesting way to go?

[Ishagu]

The formation is indeed very strong and useful. You can even put a unit in the Stormraven as if it were a part of your normal detachment.

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm thinking of using it in my raptor army sometime. Tell me, is it as valuable as a knight in this case? it's what it would be replacing I think.

[Imren]

speaking of raptors, the forgeworld fire raptor is something to consider too, hull mounted TL avenger bolter with 7 S6 AP3 shots that are twin linked, and split fire TL autocannons on both sides of the fuselage, hellstrike missiles, ceramite plating, machine spirit and extra armour AV12 all around and 4 HP. its a heavy infantry light vehicle raper, tanky as a raven. But its in the dark part of the grayzone to be cheesy.

[Gideon999]

I have run the storm wing formation, and I can say that it is brutal but you MUST have some way of controlling your reserve rolls.   When almost a third of your army is of the board at 1500pts, you need to be able to get those units into play when you need them.   One game I played with that formation and had 3 centurions with grav in the raven at 2k pts.   That was 680pts off the table, and it didnt come in until turn 4.   Although once they came on they wrecked face, by then it was too late to recover from the butt kicking I had gotten the previous turns.

 

Still, 2 battlewagons and 6-7 or so lootas in one of the wagons went down to the raven alone in one volley so you can say they are VERY effective.

[SyNidus]

Stormwing Formation? Don't you mean STOMPwing? ;) because of the sheer curbstomping this formation does to anything and everything unfortunate enough to be caught in its path. It's like an air strike gone wild.

 

No seriously...I can't tell you enough just how insane this thing really is. It's like someone took our already impressive flyers, stuck em into a sandwich of awesome and then let you use only one roll to bring the pain. Did I say bring the pain? I meant one roll to SHORYUKEN!!! the opponent in the face.

[brother_contagion]

I ordered a Storm Eagle for my Chaos force and an additional Terminator squad. I plan to have them and my Sorcerer Terminator embark the Storm Eagle as a rapid assault squad, equipping them with combi-flamers or combi-plasmas.

[MisterDutch]

In the few games that I played with my Stormtalon, (a single one, in a 1500 pts list) it wasnt particulary impressive. A land Speeder typhoon couldve done it's job for much less points. Still, it's so cool that I keep on using it. So if you like to use units that you simply find cool, and you dont care about competitiveness, go for it! The alternative would be to take 2 or 3 flyers and they will dominate unless your friend brings some serious anti-air. Whether it's "too many"? Depends on your meta. I've had guys give a negative reaction towards just my single 'talon... "Oh, you brought a flyer?  Uhh, I wish I'd have known..." as if I'm cheating him by bringing such an 'overpowered' unit to our game before asking his permission... *rolls eyes*

 

Then again, I'd love to play with/against a list with a huge amount of flyers sometime... they cost a lot of points, so you better know how to utilize them well... 

[knife&fork]

There's a guy at our club that runs astra militarum air cav with 'elite' guardsmen and 5 flyers. It's not a super strong list but the amount of flyers makes it fun and different to face.

[minigun762]

There is enough anti air options out there that flyers by themselves aren't anything that can't be handled.

 

Now there are some flyers that are better than others but that's true of all units.