Kharn vs Zhufor - which one?

[Lord Kallozar]

Hi all,

very simply which do you think is best to have as an HQ choice and why?

 

cheers.

[the jeske]

Khârn is a better melee character and is not FW. But in general , if either is taken only to make zerkers troops , it is plain better to take a lord.

[Lord Kallozar]

cheers for the quick reply mate.

 

how come its better to take a generic khorne lord over Khârn or Zhufor?

[khurdur]

if you want to save points, you can just give him the mark and a power weapon for less than 100 points.

But the main reason is that a fully decked out lord- , mark of Khorne, juggernaut, axe of blind fury, gift and sigil of corruption, and meltabombs for 190 is plain better than either Khârn or Zhufor.

[Lord Kallozar]

that leads to my next question nicely.... what are the benefits of a khorne jugger? would the khorne lord still be viable with all the upgrades you mentioned but without the jugger?

[the jeske]

ok.

A bike or a jugger makes the lord faster , every turn the lord is not in melee is a turn where his points aren't optimaly used. Now if khorn HQs had options to shot[as in good ones] or brough extra special rules[other then zerkers=troops] , foot slogging HQ may would have been more viable.

[Prot]

Khârn is pretty darn good. It's more an issue of what you support him with.

 

Also in 7th where you may find a lot of psyker goofiness, he's hard to target at all with his 2+ deny. 

 

I've enjoyed Kranon from Crimson Slaughter and it was only recently I re-assessed Kranon vs Khârn and realized Khârn is pretty good out of the box. AP2 is big, and he's a beast, there's not much he can't wreck, and he's not that expensive really. 

 

But as already mentioned if you're main goal is to just unlock Berzkers as troops, take a cheap lord and let the zerkers do the heavy lifting.

[Deadman Wade]

Point for point, Khârn is the best close combat character in codex, he beats all other close combat characters of the same or about 20 points higher price easily, slaughters infantry and protects from psychic powers. If he gets a charge, he will beat Zhufor, all chaos lords, except maybe Mark of Nurgle and blight grenades, SM captains e.t.c. He lacks eternal warrior, so S8 will instant-kill him, but I don't see many S8 these days. His damage output is higher than Abaddon's, as he doesn't rely on d6 roll for his weapon, and usually inflicts more wounds. Zhufor, Abaddon and Typhus can be better against MCs. He's very good against vehicles 'cause of armorbane, and he also counters invisibility with his "always hits on 2+",

Zhufor is much tougher with Eternal Warrior and 2+ save, has S10 power fist and chainaxe with +2 attacks, so when he charges it's either 6 S10 powerfist attacks or 8 S6 AP4 chainaxe attacks, which is quite good, but Khârn's 7 S6 AP2 re-rollable attacks hitting on 2+ are better almost always. He eats monstrous creatures (take that, T8 Wraithknights!), walkers and vehicles for breakfast, and can stand against many tough opponents. But overall, he's worse in close combat than Khârn, as he hits on 3+ against most targets and has no Hatred Incarnate, so while Khârn will get 5-6 wounds against MEQ, Zhufor will have something like 4-5 with Axe or even less with power fist.

Both are very slow and require transport, but if you take FW character Zhufor, you can have FW flyer Storm Eagle (rules are in the same book). Biker or jugger lords are much faster and need no transport, but they nowhere near Khârn and Zhufor in terms of killing power.

[khurdur]

I dunno I still swear by my juggerlord he's almost guaranteed to get a charge on turn 2. he's got a nice spawn bodyguard, and can't get instagibbed by S8 like Khârn

(lascannons/meltaguns/lances which I see lots of these) and can really take punishment if the combat for some reason drags out. Khârn still is great but if I play one HQ its the juggerlord, Khârn is like a missile-he'll what he charges no questions, but he'll usually die afterwards to whatever- lower wounds, invul and toughness. And he relies on his land raider.

 

But he's still great. He'd be OP if his defences where tougher.

I just find my juggerlord lives longer/kills more stuff.

[betrayer41]

Khârn!!! never lost him in a game and he has taken out just about everything thrown infront of him...including my zerkers

[thraxdown]

Always go Khârn. Always

[khurdur]

He's great, but a juggerlord is just too tough. Khârn can't take half the punishment. he'll kill what he charges (if the raider survives) and thats it against any half way good opposition.

Any enemy has to through a mountain at a juggerlord and 5 spawn to kill them all. Even against a vindicator 6 large bases gives him about 2-3 hit t the most.. And you save on the land raider for more points, bikes, maulerfiends and so on.

[incinerator950]

The mountain of spawn or the Lord's actual defenses?

[khurdur]

both together

15 T5 wounds of spawn, and then the lord will usually force the enemy to pass 4 wounds on a 4++, its quite a few wounds. Khârn +9 zerkers just aren't as good. And you have to splash out for the subpar chaos land raider.

[Deadman Wade]

In 7th edition changes to Machine Spirit and vehicle damage table Chaos LR is better than loyalist LR 'cause it's 20 points cheaper. And since it can capture objectives, taking one isn't that bad anymore.

As for spawns and jugger lord, they aren't nearly as killy as Khârn and berzerkers. Tougher, faster and easier to use, sure, but berzerkers do enough damage to wipe out stuff like terminators just with re-rolls from Khârn's warlord trait, while spawns are just additional wounds to jugger lord, who causes less damage than Khârn.

Also, jugger lord gets hit on 3+ by WS6 and he hit WS5 and 6 on 4+, not to mention that on a roll of 1 he smacks himself with his axe. Khârn sometimes kills his squad members, but at least he's more reliable.

[Lord Kallozar]

So I take it Zhufor really isn't that special then compared to the other two?

[Deadman Wade]

Zhufor will instant-kill T5 models (Daemon prince, marine biker characters) and has Eternal Warrior, so he can beat Axe Lord and most characters of his price (175 pts IIRC). If you want tanky lord, who can smash things in close combat, Zhufor is perfect. Other lords are either too expensive (Typhus, Abaddon), too squishy (regular khorne lords, Khârn), or not killy enough (Nurgle lords).

Both are great characters, Khârn is a glass cannon, great against any infantry and any opponents without S8, Zhufor is better against MCs and vehicles as well as hordes of 4+ save infantry, while still being able to kill not too tough opponents in challenges (or those Chapter Masters who rely on T5 to protect them and do not take Shield Eternal ).

[Lord Kallozar]

what about running Zhufor with a "retinue" of Bloodletters? How would that work out?

 

or even Khârn with Bloodetters??

[the jeske]

demon rules stop non demons from joining their units.

[Lord Kallozar]

I know that, hence why I put it in inverted commas. I mean what if I ran bloodletters alongside Zhufor/Khârn (separate units but running together as if they were one unit).

 

and question 2) which other suitable/best retinue will link well with Zhufor or Khârn? cheers.

[Sception]

walking isn't a great call.  Letters are super fragile when run that way, too.

 

Maybe letters in a raider, and Khârn or zhufor with some chosen or zerks or whatever in another?  But due to min unit size/transport capacity you can't put any heralds in the letters...  ugh, I will never stop cursing transports that max capacity at standard squad sizes, making it awkward/impossible to include characters.  The marine book had it right when they upped the standard land raider's capacity to 12, and when the chaos book didn't follow suit I nearly threw a fit.  Just... so frustrating.  Just unfun game design.

[Deadman Wade]

Take spartan or storm eagle, if you want transport capacity, it isn't really a problem.

[Sception]

Apart from the hundred extra points, and hundred extra dollars, and the raider I already have you mean?  :p

 

So yeah, spartans.  I'm not sure how many points you have to be playing to reasonably run dual spartans, both with expensive melee squads and ICs, but at however many points that is it's a list I'd like to see.

[Lord Kallozar]

yeah definitely wouldnt have the points for that. its a shame about not being decent using bloodletters with the IC because I like the vibe and look of the Space Marine video game where the Chaos Termi lord always rocked up with Bloodletters - was a cool concept which I would have loved to have in an army.

[Deadman Wade]

Yeah, FW stuff is great, but it isn't cheap. My Heresy legion is the slowest project i've ever done 'cause of FW prices. :D

But you were talking about transport capacity for daemons with heralds, and spartan is the ultimate transport for any close combat squad. Without armored ceramite chaos version is 285pts IIRC, that's only 25 pts more than Crusader with multi-melta. Storm Eagle is around 210 points (or something like that), and carries 20 models, though his weapons aren't as good as Storm Raven.

As for retinue, Khârn has Hatred as his warlord trait, which makes any squad he's in much stronger. Four terminators with fists and Mark of Khorne cost less than 170 points, have 16 re-rollable attacks and take land raider as dedicated transport, but when one of them dies it significantly reduces their damage output (and if you're unlucky enough to roll 1 to hit and re-roll to get another 1, Khârn will kill one of them at ini5, so it will be only 12 attacks on charge). 9 berzerkers are few points more expensive and squishier, but they are very good at wiping infantry, and it isn't a big deal to lose one or two.

Zhufor has no buffs to his squad, but he can tank more damage and smash things with power fist, so I'd take terminators with weapons that aren't unwieldy.