is the manticore worth it in 7th?

[hornywingythingy]

I'm just wondering, with the changes to damage charts for vehicles, the general tendency for meching up in 7th, and the wyvern being so good and cheap, is there a place for manticores? Atm I'm leaning towards no, I think at 170 they are too expensive, but I'm interested in your opinions.

[PureFodder]

I still think they're worth it. They are very good against enemy armour such as Land Raiders that can otherwise be hard to shift. They can also double out T5 models, which can be very useful.

 

Plus D3 large blast templates can remove a healthy number of infantry per turn if no better targets are available.

[David Ravel]

Personnally I decided to do a wreck with my manticore for a terrain I am building. That sums my perspective on it. I think the lack of pinning, the lack of 1/6 chance of exploding vehicule, the high cost vs wyvern, etc. all tends to make it less cool. With FW option you can have solid platform of destruction, and they can still dish out alot of pain on ennemy horde or 4+/T5 (like warriors who crumble because of their 4+ T4). Yet I think they lack something, so I won't use them anymore. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't think there's much that's T5 that doesn't sport a 3+ or better Save. The new Nid FMCs spring to mind, but they'll be in the air, obviously.

 

IMO, Eradicators are better against Sv 4+, and Wyverns are just generally better against most things due to the sheer amount of hits one can rack up.

[hornywingythingy]

I still think they're worth it. They are very good against enemy armour such as Land Raiders that can otherwise be hard to shift. They can also double out T5 models, which can be very useful.

 

Plus D3 large blast templates can remove a healthy number of infantry per turn if no better targets are available.

All they do is knock one hp off at best with each blast though, imho vanquisher is better for killing land raiders.

[minigun762]

 

I still think they're worth it. They are very good against enemy armour such as Land Raiders that can otherwise be hard to shift. They can also double out T5 models, which can be very useful.

 

Plus D3 large blast templates can remove a healthy number of infantry per turn if no better targets are available.

All they do is knock one hp off at best with each blast though, imho vanquisher is better for killing land raiders.

You're still getting easy penetrating hits. Might not be exploding anything but destroying a weapon or immobilizing is rarely bad.

[hornywingythingy]

^weapons off landraiders isn't really an inconvenience, people take them for the transport, not the guns so much. Just seems every time I see one they don't do much to justify the price tag, and they die so easily. I don't own one, and was debating adding one to my guard, but I think the pounds could be spent better elsewhere. (grey knight allies/ put towards an imperial knight)

[minigun762]

Good point on the weapons but on the same account, stopping it from moving is almost as good as destroying it.

 

I guess I view the Manticore like a giant ordnance blast version of an auto cannon. It's a flexible weapon that rarely has a bad target to shoot it at.

[librisrouge]

But, like the auto cannon, rarely has a good one either. It's the middle of the road versus just about everything. That being said, two Str 10 large blasts thin hordes fast and might still snipe a guy out thanks to barrage.

 

Anecdotal but I once had one shred a Krieg basilisk battery. The barrage rule and multiple shots cleared all 12 crew in one go.

[captain sox]

Wyverns are just generally better against most things due to the sheer amount of hits one can rack up.

Like all good things, expect a NERF soon I'm sure.

I just built my Manticore...

[scatmandoo]

Convert back to a deathstrike?

[captain sox]

Most likely will 

[Frater Cornelius]

It has a 24" min range since it can only fire indirectly IIRC. With that is mind, aggressive armies will quickly be safe from it.

S10 is very nice, especially ordnance but for 170 points you get a Demolisher. So the question is, do you want to pressure aggressively, then Demolisher. If you want to pressure his backfield, then consider Manticore. I would however invest the 80 extra points and get 2 Basilisks.

[march10k]

I like the bassie, but only if it's set up for direct fire with closed crew compartment and camo netting, sitting in ruins for a 3++ and no +1 on the damage table, supporting a list that spams AV12+ vehicles to thin out enemy fire.

[Seahawk]

You can fire directly within the 24".

 

I love my two Manticores. People are terrified of them because of their utility. I've won more than a few games thanks to their power and psych effect.

[Bonzi]

Whether a manticore is good or not depends on the context of the army it is within.  I plan on taking an allied manticore within my Tempestus Scion list because it has what the rest of my army lacks, long ranged anti-tank and anti-horde utility.  The manticores general utility pairs well with the precision purpose of Scion units.  It also forces armies that would normally outgun my Scions at range to come to me to shut down the manticore, which brings them into the ideal engagement envelope of my Scions.

 

I also think the Manticore retains solid anti-tank ability with it's D3 ordnance shot.  It's a great counter to a player who likes to castle/car park/bubble wrap to protect his high value armor.  People also tend to forget that getting a second immobilized result on a vehicle will net an additional hull point, leaving the slim possibility to wreck a 4HP tank in one go (needing three shots, netting three pens with two of those pens being immobilized results.)

[Thoqqu]

Manticore or deathstrike can't fire directly. It's in the codex in armoury section.

 

So, opponent wants to get close to deathstrike before it launches? Park a demolisher next to it.

 

*edit. Min range only 12 inch for the deathstrike =)

[Seahawk]

Ah, so they can't.

 

Well, that's why I have one in each corner! :D

[PureFodder]

 

 

I still think they're worth it. They are very good against enemy armour such as Land Raiders that can otherwise be hard to shift. They can also double out T5 models, which can be very useful.

 

Plus D3 large blast templates can remove a healthy number of infantry per turn if no better targets are available.

All they do is knock one hp off at best with each blast though, imho vanquisher is better for killing land raiders.

You're still getting easy penetrating hits. Might not be exploding anything but destroying a weapon or immobilizing is rarely bad.

 

Vanquishers have a 50% chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to cause an explosion if they pen, plus they tend to give away cover saves due to direct fire. So turn 1, against a Landraider hiding behind a ruin (a fairly typical situation), you have about a 2-3% chance to cause an explosion with a vanquisher (which will vary slightly with night fighting/twinlinking etc).

 

The Manticore is the king of dropping high strength blasts on your opponent on turn 1 even when they're in hiding behind LoS blocking terrain, and if they're hiding behind terrain, there's a god chance to hit a couple of units at the same time. Plus the chance to immobilise transports or a short range unit such as a Vindicator while it's still in your opponent's deployment zone and facing a wall is priceless.

 

The 24" minimum range is irritating, but with the Malestrom missions, your opponent will have units all over the board, so you can leave it in a corner and still hit most of their army.

[march10k]

That is a really strong argument, Pure, but you weaken it by trying too hard.  For example, you give the Manticore credit for success if it merely immobilizes its target (a 1/6 chance!), but ignore any outcome except an explosion for the vanquisher.  You also present the 24" minimum range as if it were the only downside.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  There are also problems with limited ammo, no AP, and AV12.   I'm not paying  demolisher points for such a flawed vehicle. And...at the same time, I'm no fan of the vanquisher unless it's Pasquisher.  BS4 and preferred enemy make all the difference in the world.  But that's a special case, in general, vanquishers are just as bad, for the points, as manticores.  

 

I'll take my S10 pieplates with AV14 and AP2, thanks!

[CoffeeGrunt]

 BS4 and preferred enemy make all the difference in the world.

 

Not to mention Crack Shot being boss for a Vanquisher.

[march10k]

Welll.......that too!

[WarriorFish]

I think of the Manticore as a "spread the love" kind of weapon. Best use is on large clusters of enemies to get the most out of it, so if you're not against larger quantities of enemies to frag it has less utility but as said can usually encourage your enemy in certain ways :P