Slabshields, why wouldn't you?

[Ptolemy]

So I've been looking at the Bullgryns, and the more I look at them, the more I wonder:

 

Why would you ever pay 15 points per model to change from a slabshield to a bruteshield? Sure it gives you a 5++ save, you re-roll wounds on HoW and you get a power maul, but it means that most of the time you've got a 4+ armour save, heavy bolters (or better) will shred through you and a power maul is only AP4 anyway - Marines still get their 3+ save against them and you won't insta-kill a multi-wound Marine either since you're S7(5+2), so what's the point? I can't think of many units which are 4+ that you'd either be in close combat with, or that you'd need to ignore their saves to kill anyway. Scouts? Eldar? It doesn't even give you a bonus to the penetration chart on a vehicle. Pointless.

 

However, for the cost of outfitting your entire Bullgryn squad with brute shields (3 models), you could add a fourth bullgyrn, giving you an extra 3 wounds and 3 attacks. Also since you've got a 3+ armour save for having slabshields in base contact, those heavy bolters no longer ignore your armour save. You now need something the likes of Krak missiles/grenades to ignore those saves and they're far less plentiful than Heavy Bolters. It also means that in order to ignore your armour in melee they require a power sword or better - a maul won't do it.

 

Then there's close combat. Here's where I'm not 100% about how slabshields work - because it says that any two models in the same unit in base contact both with slab shields get +1 to their armour save. If you're not in base-to-base contact in melee (which you should be since you charge closest-to-closest and you have a 40mm base) then by looking at the models, you shouldn't get that +1 armoursave. However when allocating for wounds in close combat, all models are treated as being equidistant from each other (which is why you could put wounds on different sides of the unit each phase), which surely means that all models in the same unit are in base-to-base contact, even if they're actually not. So in my mind, they should automatically get the +1 armour save.

 

But even if you argue that you don't get the 3+ save in melee combat, you still have the issue of having AP4 melee weapons which won't really ignore the armour of anything that you care about - admittedly it makes Bullgyrns slightly better against low-armour vehicles like transports or landspeeders but even on rear armour you're glancing on 3's with 4 less attacks (5 in the case of the Bone 'ead and assuming you charged since against a vehicle you would have do) opposed to glancing on 5's with four more attacks. On average I think it's pretty much the same number of hits - and there's little point penetrating over glancing with an AP4 weapon or an AP- weapon, neither can explode a vehicle.

 

Let's break it down, first the points costs and then the ability.

 

Bullgryns - 190

2 Bullgryns, 1 Bone 'ead, 3 brute shields and 3 power mauls.

W9, 4+/5++.

Range: Nothing.

Melee: A10, S7, AP4, I2, Concussive.

(charge) 3 HoW, A13, A7, AP4, I2, Concussive.

 

 

Bullgryns - 190

3 Bullgryns, 1 Bone 'ead, slabshields and grenadier gauntlets.

W12, 3+ (until 2 wounds remaining if done correctly, then 4+).

Range: 4x12", Heavy 1, Blast, S4, AP6.

Melee: A13, S5, I2.

(charge) 4 HoW, A17, I2.

 

 

Maul gives concussive, but that only applies to a model which has a taken a wound. Most models that you're in combat with will only have 1 wound so it doesn't really apply. It would only apply if you're in combat with a character who is either melee-focused and in which case will probably beat you regardless of your power weapons, or they're not melee based and you'd beat them regardless.

 

Even if you only gave your Bone 'ead a Bruteshield and power maul, that's still only 4/5 attacks with S7 AP4 Concussive rather than 4/5 attacks S5 AP- and it means that when you're down to the Bone 'ead and your last Bullgryn you'll have 4+ saves again for your last (potentially) 6 wounds since both models don't have slabshields.

 

Is there something that I'm missing here? Is there some little gem with the Bruteshield/Maul combination that I'm just not seeing, or is it a complete waste of points?

 

 

TL;DR: Power Mauls and Bruteshields are garbage, discuss.

[Emperor's Furor]

For facing things other than marines?

[Ptolemy]

For example? I only used marines as an example of 3+ armour saves. Can you name anything with a 4+ save that's better in melee than a Bullgryn? Or at least, better to the point where a Bullgryn needs to have a power weapon to give them the advantage? I can't think of any.

[Emperor's Furor]

Eldar Aspect Warriors? Maybe Dark Eldar Incubi?

[Skabfang]

You say such as? Obviously orks... No brainer... Not everyone faces only marines

[Andhil]

I field a unit of Bullgryns, 6 of them, 3 each of Slabshields and Brute shields, escorted by a priest for Re-rolls to hit. They got charged by 3 units of 17 Boys with 'Eavy Armour (4+Sv, in case anyone didn't know), and the Bullgryns practically wiped them out. The Mauls took a terrible toll, and also make it much easier to wound, as str5 to the average T4 means wounding on 3's, while mauls give the added benefit of wounding on 2's.

Each section of the unit is needed for different purposes. The Slabshields make sure the unit stays safe until they reach HtH, and the Mauls smack the living daylight out of whatever's unlucky enough to stand in their way, also having the 5++ gives some survivability vs. MC's, which are found aplenty in my meta. (NOTE: I often use the Priest's re-roll saves hymn. It's awesome on Bullgryns. )

[Ptolemy]

I field a unit of Bullgryns, 6 of them, 3 each of Slabshields and Brute shields, escorted by a priest for Re-rolls to hit. They got charged by 3 units of 17 Boys with 'Eavy Armour (4+Sv, in case anyone didn't know), and the Bullgryns practically wiped them out. The Mauls took a terrible toll, and also make it much easier to wound, as str5 to the average T4 means wounding on 3's, while mauls give the added benefit of wounding on 2's.

Each section of the unit is needed for different purposes. The Slabshields make sure the unit stays safe until they reach HtH, and the Mauls smack the living daylight out of whatever's unlucky enough to stand in their way, also having the 5++ gives some survivability vs. MC's, which are found aplenty in my meta. (NOTE: I often use the Priest's re-roll saves hymn. It's awesome on Bullgryns. )

This is the kind of answer that I wanted, one with some stats and actual reasoning.

I have questions:

1. How many wounds did the Bullgryns without mauls do compared to the ones who did?
2. How many of those wounds were saved as compared to the ones which were AP4?
3. Did your Bone 'ead have a slabshield or a brute shield? I assume brute shield - but that leaves him open to precision shots (not such a big deal I suppose).
4. Did the Ork player target your brutes first, or your slabs?
5. Did you find that you needed the 5++ save more than the 3+ or 4+?
6. Do you think the unit would still work without the Priest?
7. Would the unit still work at a lower points cost? 350 points is significant in a lower points game. i.e 2 slabshields and 1 brute shield(Bone 'ead).

[Emperor's Furor]

Well sorry for responding without stats or actual reasoning, but you asked what are you missing and I pointed out the fact you're basing your entire reasoning on fighting marines.

[Kontakt]

What about for fighting terminators?

[Teetengee]

I just want to throw out there that the incubi are also 3+ saves.

More on topic, Mauls will also instant death elder, which means they will ignore fnp from dark eldar units.

I also see them doing a fair amount of damage to scouts.

 

EDIT: TYPO PURGE WITH FIRE.

[shandwen]

Also, caj a sanguinary priest grant them furious charge? Then the power mauls would matter. And the fnp would help as well.

[march10k]

IIRC, sang priests only affect units from C:BA...

[Andhil]

Sorry for the somewhat late response, had stuff to do. Anyway, on to business!

-"How many wounds did the Bullgryns without mauls do compared to the ones who did?"

They scored less wounds, as would be expected, although the Str5 still only needed 3-s to wound, so the difference would be small vs. T4, but you'd still feel the difference.

-"How many of those wounds were saved as compared to the ones which were AP4?"

Quite a lot, I'd estimate around half of those, as he had a 4+ sv.

-"Did your Bone 'ead have a slabshield or a brute shield? I assume brute shield - but that leaves him open to precision shots (not such a big deal I suppose)."

Indeed, he had a Brute Shield, but that's mainly to give him some extra punch should someone challenge him. I assure you that no T3 character will ever challenge a Bone 'Ead with a Maul! And Precision shots aren't such a big deal, Bullgryns are tough, with T5, a 4+sv, a 5+ inv and 'Look out Sir!' for the Bone 'Ead.

-"Did the Ork player target your brutes first, or your slabs?"

He was pretty much forced to target my Slabshields first, as they were my front line. He charged me, so that meant I still had the 3+ sv from being in base contact.

-"Did you find that you needed the 5++ save more than the 3+ or 4+?"

Actually, Yes! I negated a couple of his Power Klaw wounds, which would have ignored the other saves. And even though they can't ID them, it's still nice to not suffer a wound. It also gives the Bone 'Ead a chance in challenges.

-"Do you think the unit would still work without the Priest?"

Yes, it would, but for 25pts, the Priest buffs them beyond imagination. Re-rolls to hit in every first turn of Assault, and the possibility of re-rolling your saves (or to wound rolls) is seriously good for 25pts. Basically a very, very cheap Chaplain with weaker stats but better buffs.

-"Would the unit still work at a lower points cost? 350 points is significant in a lower points game. i.e 2 slabshields and 1 brute shield(Bone 'ead)."

That would depend on your opponents. The setup you mentioned above would still do decent damage against Orks and small Nids (provided they don't have poison), but they wouldn't be able to damage Marines that effectively, whereas having the bigger unit means dealing more wounds. Personally I'd shift the way I use them. The big unit are my Shock Troops, so to speak, front line unit to smash the first thing that comes into range, and break through to an objective. The small unit I'd use as a sort of Bodyguard for my Warlord, keeping the close and when needed, assaulting any threat (which would most likely already be weakened.)

Hope this was useful. Feel free to ask more stuff, and I'll answer as best as possible.

[Landrick]

Interesting. I am thinking of building some to run the new formation in Sanctus Reach. It requires two squads of 5 bullgryns and a CCS (I think). They all get fear, fearless, counterattack and maybe something else... The book gets here tomorrow and I will know more