Centurions - the bane of mech guard?

[Bionicman]

How do you guys counter cenutrions when playing mech guard. I was tabled by a SM player yesterday and it almost feeled like playing against 'cron. Granted that I underestimated Space Marines based on their previous books and terminator-heavy-in-your-face-lists ain't the best matchup against static AM gunline.

 

My List:

HQ: Vanquisher + Las, 2xExecutioner+Plas Sponsons, Camo Nets

1PCS 3x Flamer, 5 Platoons Flamer

Edit: 10 Vets 3x Flamer

1 Vendetta, 1 Valkyrie + Missle Pods

Sentinel w. Multilaser

2 Wyvern

Aegis with Com Relay

= 1500 pts

 

SM List

Librarian (Divination)

10 TH/SS Termis

Sternguard? Vets 3 Combimelta / 2 Combiflamer? + Drop Pod

2x 5 Scouts

5 Centurions with GravCannons, 1 with Lascannon

Stormtalon

 

TH/SS Termis with a 3++ are difficult to deal with, even with Executioners (I killed one Termi first round, bad luck). But those 5 Centurions... 5 Shots each, stripping a hull point and  immobilizing on a 6, thats bad man... And he could ignore cover and reroll hits most times thanks to his Librarian. On the other hand, they are quite sturdy with 2 wounds, Toughness 5, 2+.

 

 

So what can be done. More plasma for sure. Wounds on 2+, ignores their armor but no insta kill, sadly. T5, 2 wounds matters. Mass Flashlights (as for terminators) have a hard time because of that. 30 Flashlights, 15 hit, 2.5 wound, 0.4 unsaved. I need 75 guardsman in rapid fire range + 1st rank, second rank to strip off one wound, or 150 to kill one model or 750 guardsman to kill the unit in one turn? Not an option.

 

Opinions?

[CaptainHelion]

Demolishers should tear right through Centurions. Strength 10 is enough to instagib them, T5 or not, and AP2 straight up ignores their armour.

[march10k]

Demolishers should tear right through Centurions. Strength 10 is enough to instagib them, T5 or not, and AP2 straight up ignores their armour.

This. And it pounds those assault termies to scrap, too...hella better than wyverns, that's certain! You know your list is unbound, right? And it would cost you ten points to battleforge it?

[Bionicman]

 

Demolishers should tear right through Centurions. Strength 10 is enough to instagib them, T5 or not, and AP2 straight up ignores their armour.

This. And it pounds those assault termies to scrap, too...hella better than wyverns, that's certain! You know your list is unbound, right? And it would cost you ten points to battleforge it?

 

 

Damn, forgot the vets with flamers (I know not the best choice, but no points left for melta or plasma). Thank you for pointing out!

 

Totally overlooked the demolisher. Thing is, I don't like it that much for being pricey and short range (compared to other Russes) - and if he misses or the centurions shoot first (same range) you will be in trouble anyways. Ok, bring two you say, but then we are looking at 340 points for 2 shots - thats a pretty large footprint for countering one unit. :(

[march10k]

It doesn't just counter one unit, it counters the termies, as well. For that matter, everything in his list except the scouts and the talon. Honestly, his list is so cheesed up that I would feed him two demolishers and two vendettas and tell him to sukkit. That's 680 points for four models, leaving plenty for some autocannon forward sentries with chimeras at 145 points per squad (chimeras with hull heavy flamers will make short work of his scouts), and two CCSs with OotF to keep his drop pod off the board in the early game (the penalties they inflict stack!).

[CaptainHelion]

You won't be able to stop the droppod coming in, afaik. Drop Pod Assault means that it'll come down turn one regardless of what either of you want.

There's only one thing in his list that doesn't fear the Demolisher cannon, and that's the Stormtalon. Given that, you'd perhaps be best off being aggressive. Your flamers ought to tear through his scouts, and his Grav-cannon shots are almost entirely wasted on standard guardsmen.

With the droppod full of Sternguard, he can quite easily cut your gunline into something much less threatening, and they're most likely designed to distract from the TH/SS Termies walking up the board. To neuter that threat, I'd recommend just not having much of a gunline. Run forward at him. Use your guardsmen as walking cover/support for the Demolishers. Get into that sweet sweet Demolisher Cannon range asap. You have precious little that needs to stand still to shoot at it's full capacity, so why not move?

[Kontakt]

I hate to say it, but why do you need to use mech guard? An infantry platoon would be the perfect counter to his grav centurions and TH SS Termies. Also, orders make lasgun fire more effecive, which is why they don't make mathematical sense to you. Order the guys making the lasgun shots with first rank fire, second rank fire. My usual guard opponent enjoys swarming my termies with guardsmen, using the screening infantry to protect his tanks and wyverns. Oh, and I am also a fan of the demolisher, but at the cost and lack of range, I would also consider the standard LRBT.

[march10k]

Ah, good point, forgot about drop pod assault.    Oh, well, spread out so the drop pod can only take a shot at one of the demolishers and is subsequently out of position to do anything else the rest of the game.  And just get the one CCS and use the OotF to increase the chances that both vendettas come in on turn two.

 

I don't see my proposed list as a gunline at all, the chimeras are rocking hull heavy flamers, which is not at all "stand back and shoot" stuff, the forward sentries will be scattered around wherever there is cover for them to camp, the vendettas are coming from reserves, and of course the demolishers are trying to get into range of the termies and centurions.  That's no gunline!

 

I hate to say it, but why do you need to use mech guard? An infantry platoon would be the perfect counter to his grav centurions and TH SS Termies. Also, orders make lasgun fire more effecive, which is why they don't make mathematical sense to you. Order the guys making the lasgun shots with first rank fire, second rank fire. My usual guard opponent enjoys swarming my termies with guardsmen, using the screening infantry to protect his tanks and wyverns. Oh, and I am also a fan of the demolisher, but at the cost and lack of range, I would also consider the standard LRBT.

Standard LRBT against terminators and centurions?  Are you mad?  They get a 2+ against a battle cannon, while the thundernators "only" get a 3++ and the centurions get nothing against the demolisher.

[minigun762]

 

SM List

Librarian (Divination)

10 TH/SS Termis

Sternguard? Vets 3 Combimelta / 2 Combiflamer? + Drop Pod

2x 5 Scouts

5 Centurions with GravCannons, 1 with Lascannon

Stormtalon

 

 

Agree with the fact that it's a pretty min-max list. 

 

That said, it does have some weaknesses. 

 

1) The Terminators are actually not a very good unit against IG/AM as they're just too expensive, too killy and too slow. After they deepstrike, just feed them squads or block their movement with vehicles.Think tarpits and denial. Don't try to kill them as they're too durable for that. You're now playing against an opponent who only has 1000 points worth of army. 

 

2) Sternguard are going to kill something of value unless you bubble wrap. If you don't want to bubble wrap, the other option is to limit the targets available to them by covering your better vehicles with your more expendable ones. Once they land and burn something, just focus cheap firepower on them to finish them off. 

 

3) If you kill his Scouts, you can win based on objectives. This is the fatal flaw of these kinds of lists. 

 

4) As for the Centurions, beyond the good advice of Demolishers or trying to kill off the attached Librarian using barrage hits, remember that hitting it with autocannons will wound on 2's (ignoring their T5) and ignore the psychic inv save from the Librarian. Use the basic technique of "make them roll lots of ones". 

[Commander_Moustache]

If the short range of the demolisher bothers you, try looking in imperial armour and trying out the medusa. An extra 12" range should put the fear of the emperor in them.

 

Failing that, try to find some way to get plasma, or hell dont go static, fix bayonets and go and charge those centurions. They only have one attack each with no ap. Just watch out for the termies as they will eventualy get you.

[Shuggnuggath]

Deathstrike! the only way to be sure...

[Bionicman]

I hate to say it, but why do you need to use mech guard? An infantry platoon would be the perfect counter to his grav centurions and TH SS Termies. Also, orders make lasgun fire more effecive, which is why they don't make mathematical sense to you. Order the guys making the lasgun shots with first rank fire, second rank fire. My usual guard opponent enjoys swarming my termies with guardsmen, using the screening infantry to protect his tanks and wyverns. Oh, and I am also a fan of the demolisher, but at the cost and lack of range, I would also consider the standard LRBT.

First I use mech guard because I want to, and it is a viable concept in 7th edition. Second I am eager to hear how 10 guardsman might be a "perfect counter"? If you reread my post, I already took rapid firing range AND 1st rank 2nd rank fire into account - resulting in 30 shots (for keeping it simple and counting the sgt as a simple guardsman) and netting 0.45/2 dead centurion, for having to wounds. Rest of math is up there.. Third - screening your tanks wouldn't help you at all if he gets off ignore cover. I had an aegis + camo netting = 3+ cover save, all for nothing. And at last, the standard LRBT is just bad, being ordnance, being S9 and AP3, neither instagibbing a model nor getting through their 2+ armor. And come on, a 5'' pie plate, that are 3 models at best or your opponent is very dumb (or you very lucky).

 

Combat and autocannons sound reasonable though...

[librisrouge]

Consider the Thunderer as a cheaper Demolisher that allows you to field two more easily. Also, plasmavet scan get the jump on Centurions and kill one or two with only a little luck. Finally, consider artillery approach to snip out the Librarian. Manticores would be ok here since even one save nets you two wounds and Manticores bury those scouts fine and are great for piling wounds onto the Termis and AP 4 isn't a big deal since they have storm shields.

[Emperors Immortals]

For 200 pts you get 2 medusa gun carriages. don't know how much that's would help you, but het more durable against grav etc.

[Kontakt]

Ah, good point, forgot about drop pod assault.    Oh, well, spread out so the drop pod can only take a shot at one of the demolishers and is subsequently out of position to do anything else the rest of the game.  And just get the one CCS and use the OotF to increase the chances that both vendettas come in on turn two.

 

I don't see my proposed list as a gunline at all, the chimeras are rocking hull heavy flamers, which is not at all "stand back and shoot" stuff, the forward sentries will be scattered around wherever there is cover for them to camp, the vendettas are coming from reserves, and of course the demolishers are trying to get into range of the termies and centurions.  That's no gunline!

 

I hate to say it, but why do you need to use mech guard? An infantry platoon would be the perfect counter to his grav centurions and TH SS Termies. Also, orders make lasgun fire more effecive, which is why they don't make mathematical sense to you. Order the guys making the lasgun shots with first rank fire, second rank fire. My usual guard opponent enjoys swarming my termies with guardsmen, using the screening infantry to protect his tanks and wyverns. Oh, and I am also a fan of the demolisher, but at the cost and lack of range, I would also consider the standard LRBT.

Standard LRBT against terminators and centurions?  Are you mad?  They get a 2+ against a battle cannon, while the thundernators "only" get a 3++ and the centurions get nothing against the demolisher.

The standard LRBT is for vehicles, str8 with ordinance is real nice (though a pair of vanquishers makes vehicles cry). Vs the centurions, he will focus down the demolisher before it gets close, because who wouldn't. Vs the termies, it works great, but the plasma tank is probably a better option, though I'm not 100% sure.

 

I just wouldn't go looking for a single unit to counter an army, I'd personally go for redundancies in a list, such as multiples of a demolisher. In regards to using the 60 point vets as a counter to the 200+ point termies, 3 plasma guns (or melta) might not be enough to save you, but you can have 2 vet squads for the same price or less.