Templars vs. Blood Angels

[Firepower]

Heyo, my red cousins

Actually, maybe brothers. Or step-brothers. When I got into this hobby as just a wee little nosepicker, I played Blood Angels with my now-rotting Angels of Death codex. So, half-brothers?

Whatever. Forget the dumb metaphor.

I'm here to ask about a basic appraisal of Blood Angel stabbin' abilities. Some nice fellow on another forum, when I submitted a Black Tide-ish list for review, said he'd love to have a knock down drag out fight against it with his Angels. Which does sound awesome, really.

But then I was like 'Well, Templars hit kinda hard, but not as bad as other marines like Blood Angels and those damned Wolves." Apparently, according to some, I was wrong. Aside from Jump Packs and 50 point FnP bubbles, it was suggested we stand on even footing in a fist fight.

I'd like to know what you all think about this. It seems to me that summation missed some things, most notably Death Company.

For those unfamiliar with what Templars have, the basic bonus we get is our special rules, and the Crusader Squad. The Crusaders can take pistols and swords for free, 2 power weapons (one on a 'sargeant') and 1 special weapon. One squad can take 10 Initiates (Marines) and up to an equal number of Neophytes (Scouts). Our squad leader (or any characters) get re-rolls to hit and Rending in Challenges. Any unit with Templar special rules gets Crusader. We also have Adamantium Will, but that doesn't seem quite so important here

That all doesn't strike me as a hugely powerful foundation for a CC army, but then we have all the other units like Vanguard and Honor Guard to employ, too, which of course get the special rule bonuses as well.

It's been so long since I read the BA rules, and there have been so many major changes to the game since, that I just can't say how that all might stack up against you lot in a fist fight.

So, enlighten me, won't you?

[Nova_chron]

The punching power of blood angels is less in how we fight (very similar to most other marines) and more in picking our fights ASM are not wicked in assault they tend to lose steam after the charge but with jump packs we can pick our fights. The red thirst is a special rule we have, making our squads fearless and having furious charge lets those chosen charges hit harder. Personally I feel our real strength lies in fast rhino pattern vehicles like the Baal predator and vindicators moving 12" and still firing their main guns. The FnP bubbles help us survive but we puch about the same.

 

In short the blood angels are a scalpel picking our fights not a club or axe relying on brute hitting power to win. Hopefully this clears things up for you.

[Kanis]

I agree with what Nova said above and he summed up our Chapter quite well currently I think. The only thing I can think to add is while not always cheap, we do have access to a few tools others don't: Infernus pistols, Hand-flamers (less these :P ), and our Furioso's! The melta-pistols for me personally have been amazingly useful in a pinch especially on a Gunslinger ASM Sarge plus two melta Marines, these jumpers have a dozen ways to get where enemy armor doesn't want them and slag 'em. :)

 

Furioso's are a bit testy as far as loadouts, usually it's a fragioso in a pod, but I love mine as a Librarian and got over-joyed at the Mastery 2 in our Errata. :D They're awesome coming out of a pod with a good Nova power.. Plus that front AV13 means no grenades in CC at least and has come in handy. 

 

Anyways, Nova already gave the strong points but I hope my rant gave a bit more light! Good luck and The Emperor Protects, may he guide your Crusades.

[Firepower]

Hm, that maneuverability would indeed make a challenge out of using footslogging Crusader squads...

[Demoulius]

Nova and Kanis had most of it. Would like to clear up that red thirst is a 1/6 chance of beeing fearless and getting furious charge. Its by no means guarranteed!

BA's do defenitly have to pick their fights though. Were alot more expensive then vanilla marines and dont get to much to show for it. Our sanguinary priests can give us a FnP and FC bubble but at 50 points without any gear theyre quite expensive for a 1 wound IC.... If you learn how to use them though theyre defenitly worth their costs and they really make the rest of army shine :) Ive used a SP with hammernators. The resulting tanky unit was hideously over the top powerfull and they by themselves rolled up an entire flank of my chaos opponents army :D

Now back your question. (more or less) Indeed BA's are MOSTLY vanilla. We do got flying terminators without invul save (sanguinary guard), furiosos and honour guard (not to be confused with vanilla honour guard) who have a non-IC sanguinary priest with them :)

Our VV's also still got the old heroic intervention and with only 1d6 scatter that can mean that they can quite reliably land on target, charge and kill/tie something up on the turn they land ^_^

You mentioned DC yourself and they are AMAZING with a Chaplain (we need a mandatory HQ anyway :P) as they get rerolls to hit and to wound on the charge. Not to shabby if I do say so myself :)

Red thirst and close combat scouts make a hilariously killy tarpit unit if coupled with a bare bones SP. I ran a squad against a buddies deamon list and threw them against bloodletters. They dident get armour save and hit on 4's (were hit on 3's) but assault marines had the same problem! On the flipside they were alot cheaper and had the same punch as assault marines who are 5 points a piece more expensive. The kicker came when none of my scouts fell thanks to FnP and they banished the deamons back to the warp in short order Might have been a fluke, not to sure on that...... Anyway, morale of the story=dont underrestimate scouts, red thirst and bare bones SP's. Specialy when theyre all combined

[Firepower]

Now those are the kind of shenanigans I expected :lol:

 

While we get Crusader squads, LRC dedicated transports, and our average-ish army wide buffs (challenge bonuses are fairly big), everything else is vanilla.  And the most gimmicky death balls the vanilla codex has comes from foul psycher witchery, which we are quite appropriately denied access to (barring allies, but who needs them?!).  The main gist of the Templar special rules is 1- kill squad leaders so 2- the unit loses morale so you can then 3- run them down with Crusader.  Much easier said than done.

 

Well we also have our ICs, but Grimaldus is absolute garbage, the Emperor's Champion is meh, and Helbrecht..well, Helbrecht is pretty cool.  He has Furious Charge, and once a game can give all Templars Hatred and Fleet.  He's no Mephiston, but he's our best force multiplier option.

 

Soooo I have to say, Blood Angels still seem to have a significant leg up on us in terms of melee.  That seems pretty appropriate, but I feel the gap should be a bit smaller (but we got screwed, so no luck there).  There are definitely units, like Death Company, that I'll be much better off shooting than getting into a brawl with.

[Demoulius]

Oh yea. If you can choose to either shoot them or whack at them in close combat.... Shoot at them. From across the board.... With anti-tank weapons

Seriously, even a lowly krak missle or such will instant kill a marine. Plasma they get FnP against but its "only" a 5+ save so the odds of them dying are slim. If your causing wounds and they get to hit back though? And they charge? Ouch....

If you got something thats S8 and AP and has a template (say a battlecannon from allied guard ) you can pretty much decimate or outright kill the squad in 1 go.

if the blood angel player is worth his salt he wont let it happen.... But so long as you use the right weapons for the job BA's arent so scary. The humble assault squad under a SP bubble should be handled pretty much the same but if you have to choose, kill the DC first. Whittling the assault marines down with small arms fire is always an option and they only have 1 base attack and are WS4. They can also lose the SP due to poor unit placement which the DC dont suffer from.

Tbh, expect that the BA player will get the assault. Most things will either have jump packs or a transport that damn near guarrantees that they will get a charge off so long as you factor that in and ensure that no vital part of your army gets picked apart then you shouldnt have to much to worry about.

[Firepower]

Pfft. If I wanted to be a shooty force I wouldn't have picked up the BT flag all those years ago. This is the list in question:

Helbrecht

Honor Guard- 8 Marines, Chapter Banner, 2 Relic Blades

Drop Pod

2 Ironclads w/ Heavy Flamer

Drop Pods

2 Crusader Squads- 8 Initiates, 6 Neophytes, Sword Brother w/ Power Maul, Power Ax, Flamer

Crusader Squad- 7 Initiates, 7 Neophytes, Sword Brother w/ Power Maul, Power Ax, Flamer

2 Vindicators w/ Siege Shield

2 Storm Talon w/ Skyhammer

Clearly, not a shooty force Aside from the Vindicators and Talons, everything is designed to get stuck in. So if anything, it seems my job would revolve around putting my limited firepower where it's needed (I hit a blob of Death Company dead center once with the Vindicator- it was glorious) and meeting charges with challenges and overwhelming numbers. Though neither challenges or numbers are much good against Death Company, so yeah, they're priority 1 if I see them :P

Now a question arises- do you all still tailor your lists around assault? 6th edition really clamped down on the assault phase for everyone, and I'd be surprised if the typical (as in most common) BA armies still focused all or even most of its energy on getting into melee.

I mean, my list obviously does, but that's more because I'm a stubborn as hell BT traditionalist rather than a good tactician

[Nova_chron]

I might still be a hold out running no less than 30 assault marines who love getting stuck in backed by heavy mechanized firepower my 1850 list always has 2 vindicators and a stormraven. However I am very selective of the fights I pick usually only when I know my charge will result in 60% or greater casualties to my opponent if rolls are in my favor, otherwise I use my mobility to whittle down my opponent with melta fire and support from my tanks

[Red-beard]

I definitely tailor my BA lists around assault. If I want to play a non-assault army, I play my Imperial Fists . With centurions, TFCs, cheaper units, and shooty chapter tactics, IF vanilla marines are a much better non-assault option. When I field blood angels, I am looking to assault someone!

All that being said, one CC option that your templars have over blood angels is assault centurions. They are a good mix of short range shooting and anti-vehicle assault.

[Firepower]

Can't recall the last time I saw someone recommend Assault Centurions :lol:  The issue with them is delivery and vulnerability.  No invulnerable save is pretty rough.  And you Angels could just dance around them.  Putting a squad in a LRC does sound epic, but not so practical.

 

Well they aren't even that good in a charge, either.  Limited number of attacks, baseline initiative...even Assault Centurions are better at shooting than assault, in a lot of regards :P

 

For their role, I'd take an Ironclad over Centurions 9/10 times.

[Red-beard]

Your points are all valid...especially the part about cents being slow. BA can dance around them, yes. However, in 7E those centurions are scoring so you can't afford to ignore them if they're sitting on a high point objective.

With triple hurricane bolters and TL melta/flamers, they will easily outshoot assault marines, sanguinary guard, and DC. With S9, I4, armourbane CC attacks, they will out punch most anything the BA can throw at them. TH/SS terminators make it a closer match, but hey terminators are not unique to BA and BT can bring their own TH/SS termies.

Toughness 5, 2+ saves, and 2W makes them much more durable than you might think. Cover saves help them against ranged attacks. In CC, adding a chaplain helps make up for their lower number of attacks and lack of invuln. Having two wounds and a sergeant/LoS, you can shuffle them between rounds to distribute wounds. Regardless, even without these options, they are much more survivable than a squad of DC or AM.

Yes they need a delivery system, but then again so do DC (few BA players can stomach the 15 point price for DC jump packs). They have move through cover, so dropping them from a zooming SR is an option. Assaulting out of a SR is an even better option. Since assembling my assault centurions, my Ironclad hasn't seen much table time.

I don't want to make this a thread about centurions, but as one last point, I will say that I saw a BT player using assault cents in a friendly tourney a couple weeks ago and he did quite well with them. Assault centurions fit the BT fluff nicely and look very good in black .

[Firepower]

The only trouble I see with that synopsis is in the strategy. Chiefly, using them rather defensively (securing objectives) than offensively. True, they can hunker down. But, those nasty melta pistols, plus BA having the luxury of getting the charge (seeing as it's unlikely the Centurions would get the charge) doesn't give me much confidence in the Centurions surviving. They'll probably take some Angels down with them, but at 190 points for a bare bones squad? I just see those points being spent better elsewhere.

And it's fine to carry on a discussion about them. This is about what BT have against BA and vice versa, after all

And yes, they do indeed look sexy as Templars. Assuming you have the talent to adjust their silly, static posing

if I had the money and time, I wouldn't mind making a unit and seeing how it does. But working from theoreticals with a list where I already have to buy a significant chunk of things- 3 Pods and 2 Ironclads minimum- I'm looking at "safe" bets right now.

[redmapa]

The problem with assault in my opinion is that you can get Ironclads to do the same for much less points and better transport (Drop pod), the ammount of units that can harm that in CC are rare and most MCs would need to get one attack off with S10 to see if they can make it blow up or scratch one HP off, same with melta bombs and units that units that are all armed with melta bombs are even rarer, much more survivable in my opinion.

[Red-beard]

While a drop pod is cheaper than a SR/LR, I'm not convinced it's a clear cut "better" option. Ironclads/Furiosos are good models, but a single dreadnought deployed via drop pod is likely going to die before it assaults anything. In order to make them reliably effective, you really need two dreadnoughts and three drop pods. Take two ironclads, throw in some assault launchers and flamer upgrades and you're looking at ~400 points for two ironclads and three pods. Even then, one ironclad is likely to be dead before it makes it to CC meaning the centurions coming from an assault ramp will deliver much more damage potential. Granted, the drop-pods are not subject to reserve rolls....then again the SR gives you more !flyer and !vehicle support....

Three centurions and a SR versus three drop pods and two Ironclads/Furiosos...both can be very effective and both cost around 400 points. I think BT have a nice option in assault centurions that are noticeably absent from the 5E BA codex.

That being said, I love me some space vampires!