Deathwing Knight Tactics

[Corrupted]

I'm thinking about adding a unit of knights into my army, probably in a redeemer. I was looking for some opinions on whether or not to include a IC, either Belial or even possibly an interrogator chaplain.  

[DarkProdigy]

Im a long way from an expert I think, but my opinions... I think you're on the right track putting them in a land raider, as much as I like my knights I haven't found a better way to get them into action than a LR. I haven't personally tried the redeemer myself however, I have a friend who uses a redeemer and finds it hard to actually get those flamer templates to land on the same unit or even fire at all once the termies have disembarked. I would really recommend the crusader, more reliable shooting, and fits more bodies if you wanted to expand the unit.

 

As for your initial question though, throwing an IC in there really does start to make the whole unit quite expensive so its best to make sure its an IC that's going to actually improve the squad, Belial doesn't do much in a land raider with knights that he wouldn't do elsewhere, and he wastes his no-scatter deep strike. An interrogator chaplain is good to make sure you don't whiff your hits when you burn smite mode. A librarian can be solid choice if you aren't facing an army that's likely to shut down your psychic phase entirely, and I've been toying with the idea of Ezekiel to make the lot WS6, but i'm not sure if that will do much except in very few circumstances.

[Daevyll]

As Darkprodigy sais, the big benefit of taking Belial is pinpoint deepstriking of course. But I feel it is better used with a shooty unit, to take advantage of the rerolls on arrival. Combining Belial with a heavy flamer (or two) can be brutal.

 

Knights I feel are best delivered by a Landraider, though I'd go for a crusader instead of a redeemer since ithelps take down what Knights don't like: hordes. Knights really don't need the help versus MEQ, which is what a redeemer is best at. For more or less the same reason, I wouldn't take an IC; Knights simply don't need the help, he will be more useful elsewhere.

[JJD]

Whilst I agree with both previous posters especially regarding the land raider crusader over the redeemer the LRC and knights are a significant points investment and a cheap tech-marine or Libby with a PFG goes along way to protecting that investment.

 

The PFG would want to stay with the transport as it would be detrimental to the knights once they make it into CC.

[johnyocum]

I've used Belial in a LRR, and used the LRR as an expanded locator (remember that Belial has a locator beacon in his wargear), but I've found that the LRR isn't so great as a delivery system, but works wonderfully to hold a DWCS that you don't want out until you're ready for it, while it also BBQs a couple of units (move 6", you get one flamer, and POTMS gives you the other, and they don't have to target the same unit).

[SvenONE]

I agree with what DarkProdigy said.

 

But I really wouldn't recommend bringing Knights unless you're playing over 1850, quite honestly 2,000 points and above is really where they fit into an army budget without handicapping you (despite how good they look on paper).  In a 1500 point game, you'll end up spending over a THIRD of your total army budget on a 5 Knight & LRC/LRR combo.

 

There are 3 ways to really deliver your DWKs: Footslog (yikes!), Deep Strike (w/ Belial, Teleport homers, luck), or Dedicated Transports.  The dedicated transport is without a doubt the safest and the best, but not without a HUGE downside of cost.  Deep striking is good, but risky for all sorts of reasons, and Footslogging is basically a waste of bringing them in the first place.

 

If you want the most out of your Knights, I'd suggest a loadout like this:

• Chaplain
• DWK
• LRC w/Dozer Blades (you DEFINITELY don't want to  immobilize)

 

But that clocks in at a GHASTLY 600+ points.  Which is why I say bring them at higher point games.  But while it's a high cost, it's a double-down on your investment. 

 

There's 3 scenarios of the 2 ways I mentioned.

 

Scenario 1 (w/ Landraider):

Turn 1: LR moves 12"

Opponent's Turn 1: Unless your opponent are Necrons or Dark Eldar w/ Haywires, it's going to be pretty hard for them to completely take out a Landraider.

Turn 2: LR moves 6", DWK disembark 6" Charge whoever they want at full strength and attack at full initiative, AND +1A

 

Scenario 2 (Deep strike with Belial): 

Turn 1: Deathwing Assault minimum distance from a priority target

Opponent's Turn 1: Draw fire from every unit the enemy has in range, undoubtedly losing some in the process, potentially even getting charged by someone and losing +1A

Turn 2: Move 6", possibly through difficult terrain and potentially have to charge through difficult terrain with less bodies

 

Scenario 2 (Deep Strike via Bikes):

Pre-Turn 1: Your bikes scout 12"

Turn 1: DWA 6" ahead of bikes, Run D6

Opponent's Turn 1: Draw ton of fire, most likely lose models, potentially get charged, no longer at full strength.

 

So you can see that the extra investment in the LR is going to pay dividends because your'e going to be at full strength on a charge, which is going to translate to 12 S6AP4, 4 S6AP3 strikes.  Throw in a chaplain and they are all re-rolling, if you have a librarian somewhere maybe they gained rending, or invisibility or something.

 

Smite mode is good, but I've rarely ever been in a situation where I was smiting against a target who was a priority for it at full unit strength.

[Corrupted]

I normally play at 1850, and with Deathwing whats another 250 point unit or two.... 

 

A point was mentioned earlier in this thread that I see come up a lot and I really don't understand it, the idea that Knights are great vs MEQs, or hell even the idea that Knights are a great close combat unit (at least on paper). I'm honestly just adding them to my army for some diversity. On average, without smite, Knights kill 6 marines on the charge, the same on average as a squad of bog standard tactical terminators and far fewer then terminators kitted out for assault. 

 

Now smite is wonderful, and I think I'm going to love having that ace up my sleeve, but what about the rest of the game. I have a game coming up vs Black Templar, so I'm thinking Knights can either destroy a raider or whats in it, but I don't see them doing both. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just don't understand the players that feel that 2 S6 AP4 attacks are the end all be all of close combat.

[SvenONE]

Well I think you are right to not understand that, and I'll be honest and say that I think that view is a minority one.  Most people on these boards are of that same school of thought that Knights, are situational and actually not that great.  Bring them when you go against Chaos but proxy them as TH/SS for everything else.  

 

2LC Terminators charging out of a Landraider will statistically issue more wounds to MEQs over the Knights.  Knights are like the rest of our codex where they are great fluff concepts on paper, but on the tabletop they fall short in their execution.

[Ultra Magnus]

One point I would like to raise concerning the delivery options that Sven outlined is to make sure you make apples to apples comparisons.

 

You can't fairly compare deep striking a Knight squad with ferrying them in a Land Raider because you are forgetting that the absence of the Land Raider essentially provides you with enough additional POINTS for a second squad of Knights! Deep Striking TWO squads of Knights into the enemy's forces gives you MSU benefits as few armies have enough fire power to remove two squads of 2+/3++ T5 models. Even if you suffer casualties as Sven rightly suggests you likely will, you should still have enough Knights between the two squads or one large blob, to inflict grievous harm on your opponent. You also don't have to worry about a lucky lascannon or melta pod stranding your expensive beatstick back in your deployment zone. Essentially you are looking at the addition of ablative wounds as an equivalent "delivery vehicle replacement" for the Land Raider.

 

The way I like to frame the question is, to decided whether I find more value in having a bolt gun toting land raider, or a second group of Knights.

[SnakeChisler]

I don't see it as a great deal only having the one round of S10 normally they don't live long enough to get to use it twice.

 

Last Game I played with them they absorbed 3/4 of my opponents points of shooting went on and killed a 170 point tank then took another 3/4 of my opponents points of shooting. On the odd occasion they live then just pick an appropriate target the Sgt doesn't have the smite ball anyways he's a S6 AP3 beat stick.

 

Granted I don't put then in a Land Raider or look after them they are there to get a job done and frighten my opponent and apply pressure while my other units deal out the pain. Against a wide range of opponents - TH/SS Termies are only S8 and I really need that S10, if I hit something I want it dead no FNP no multi wound stuff no av14 just dead.

 

If there taking out Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Demon Princes, Land Raiders, Large Tanks, Centurions, Ork Nob Squads etc then there doing their job by removing key units in my opponents army and at initiative no I1 nonsense.

[Larhendiel]

just five knights in a land raider.

LR / LRC / LRR

Its all about choice, I often take LRC when I have dakka banner, or LR if I need to deal with enemy tanks, but against any form of infantry I love redeemer

S6 AP3 t-linked, one shooting cause you moved only 6" second aiming with Machine Spirit at a different unit and they can no claim cover, even bikes hate dat (expect this LRR be main target for EVERYTHING)

[SvenONE]

One point I would like to raise concerning the delivery options that Sven outlined is to make sure you make apples to apples comparisons.

 

You can't fairly compare deep striking a Knight squad with ferrying them in a Land Raider because you are forgetting that the absence of the Land Raider essentially provides you with enough additional POINTS for a second squad of Knights! Deep Striking TWO squads of Knights into the enemy's forces gives you MSU benefits as few armies have enough fire power to remove two squads of 2+/3++ T5 models. Even if you suffer casualties as Sven rightly suggests you likely will, you should still have enough Knights between the two squads or one large blob, to inflict grievous harm on your opponent. You also don't have to worry about a lucky lascannon or melta pod stranding your expensive beatstick back in your deployment zone. Essentially you are looking at the addition of ablative wounds as an equivalent "delivery vehicle replacement" for the Land Raider.

 

The way I like to frame the question is, to decided whether I find more value in having a bolt gun toting land raider, or a second group of Knights.

 

 

It's a fair point, but as someone who's run a full 10-man DWK multiple times, even if you split them to be 5 and 5, you've got to roll the dice (literally) and hope for a good scatter, or still invest in a RWAS (or Belial).  Then you've also got to hope you won first turn and aren't seized so your bikes don't get wiped off right away.  

 

The problem with knights is that they don't kill fast enough.  When you have close combat units you want them to:  charge, whack/hack/slash, force a retreat and consolidate, setting up for the next combat.  You never really want to go more than 2 player turns in close combat.  Think about units like Dark Eldar Incubi, Eldar Banshees, Necron Wraiths, Sanguinary Guard, Lightning Claw Terminators, etc.  These are true dedicated  close-combat units who get into battle, cut things up, force a retreat and consolidate into the next round of combat, and they are more efficient at it.  But those units are much cheaper (SG and ATs aside), Terminators need to be protected as an investment to get their return.

 

That said, the tactics of using Knights is all about choosing the right target, and those right targets are blobs of Xenos. (Don't forget they get HoW also)

 

Edit:  One of my worst experiences with Knights was being charged by a Furioso dreadnought while making a beeline for Mephiston so I could smite him to death.  I only had 2 options, activate Smite to attack the Dreadnought (1 of 2) so I could free myself up to go tarpit Mephiston (who was well on his way to beating up everything else I had), or sit, stuck in combat, unable to CHOOSE to fail combat and unable to damage them.  THATS Frustration right there.

[Darkangeldentist]

I am currently a fan of Deathwing knights, originally I was dubious of their merits and my initial outings with them were lacklustre. The melee only focus makes them very limited tactically, they can only do work if they get into combat and your opponent is going to do everything in their power to avoid giving you a favourable matchup in that regard.

 

Land raiders to ferry them around are expensive and can limit the squad size, deep strike and foot slogging mean you will have to endure at least one round of being shot at so they definitely require a good strategy to get them to perform. There has been a lot of good information given already on this.

 

What converted me to a fan of them unit was upping the squad size, using Deathwing assault to get them up the table early and running into postion to threaten as fast as possible. A 7 strong unit has tended to the size that I'm defaulting to for the time being. This is still small enough to fit inside a crusader if you bring one but big enough to take a few casualties and still have enough attacks to be threatening and effective in combat.

 

In spite of my love for them I accept that they are not the best option for dealing with space marines (chaos marines yes but regular...no). They can get tarpitted and stuck in combats for a long time if the dice aren't friendly. I still find them decent though, the master with his AP 3 flail and extra attack over his fellows is a mean combatant and the sheer number of wounds they can inflict each round means that your opponent needs to be rolling well. Striking at initiative 4 should also not be undervalued, neither the +1 toughness if you can manage it. (Another reason for taking a larger squad is that it makes it a whole lot easier to retain this bonus, even in combat.) A chaplain leading the squad can really ramp up the value with those re-rolls on the first turn plus you can equip him to help out against MEQs and similar. Mace of redemption is a favourite for many and with good reason.

 

 

My personal favourite character to attach to Deathwing knights has been Sammael. I take a squad of Deathwing knights in just about every Ravenwing list I write these days and Sammael is amazing with them. The extra threat you get from being able to use his jetbike to extend their board presence is amazing and granting them hit and run means that you are almost never bogged down in combat. A side benefit from being able to hit and run with them is the significant boost to mobility it gives. Jumping an average of 10" from a combat to move and charge can see them literally cross the table over a couple of turns.

 

Deathwing knights are a good unit, they have a number of bonuses that can really swing a game but require careful exploitation of their strengths to shine.

[SnakeChisler]

Deep Striking is always gonna be a bit of an issue I take it from a bike normally (Scout 12" +6") as your running them 1st turn so probably another 3"ish, attack bikes can slip in and out of cover pretty easily and we play with a decent amount of buildings.

 

Your gonna be left with no options though at times and having to basically keep them with my forces is a bit of a waste as there pretty static without wheels

[SvenONE]

Deep Striking is always gonna be a bit of an issue I take it from a bike normally (Scout 12" +6") as your running them 1st turn so probably another 3"ish, attack bikes can slip in and out of cover pretty easily and we play with a decent amount of buildings.

 

Your gonna be left with no options though at times and having to basically keep them with my forces is a bit of a waste as there pretty static without wheels

 

The biggest issue I had with this was terrain.  Too often I found them taking dangerous terrain tests (low rate of failure they may be) or unsuccessfully moving through difficult terrain/failing charges.  But then again I haven't used them in 7th with the new -2" rule.  Then it was a matter of my opponent more or less "kiting" away from them.  All the things you need them to smite: Wraithknights, Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants etc... completely outmaneuver them and most players know what Knights do and will move away from them accordingly.

 

Towards the end of 6th I was using a landraider w/DB almost exclusively to get Knights somewhere over the Bike/Deepstrike tactic