Possible MSU spam resurge idea/tactic

[depthcharge12]

So I was brainstorming after reading the razorbacks in 7th thread and thought of a possible good way to bring them back. I feel that we (or possibly just I) have been using them wrong.

 

 

I tried making a list based upon capturing objectives in 7th, whether holding points or killing a certain unit, to optimize it. I used central ideas like scary units to distract the opponent from shooting at the razorbacks while they flit about harassing the enemy, and dropping off small tactical squads to grab or clear an objective.

 

 

I will explain the tactics farther down, but here's the idea for the list:

 

1850 points

 

HQ

 

-Reclusiarch (145)

+power fist

 

 

Elites

 

-Assault Terminator Squad (215)

+3 THSS

+(DT) Land raider Redeemer w/multi melta, extra armor (265)

 

 

Troops

 

-Tactical squad [5] (110)

+plasma gun, Sgt w/combi-flamer

+Razorback w/TLAC, HKM (100)

 

-Tactical squad [5] (110)

+plasma gun, Sgt w/combi-flamer

+Razorback w/Lasplas, HKM (100)

 

-Tactical squad [5] (110)

+plasma gun, Sgt w/combi-flamer

+Razorback w/Lasplas, HKM (100)

 

-Death Company [10] (295)

+all with bolters, 2 w/TH, drop pod

 

 

Heavy Support

 

-Vindicator (150)

+dozer blade

 

-Vindicator (150)

+dozer blade

 

 

Alright, so the vindicators and Redeemer go out in front (trying to get cover when possible) with the razors behind them taking cover and possible seeing over them for purposes of taking LoS from the gun barrel.

 

The vindis and raider plow up ahead with the redeemer anchoring the opposite flank the DC are supposed to come in. The tanks get up in the face of the enemy and try taking out big AT threats like obliterators and such while the DC drop in first turn on the opposite flank nearest to the enemy to unleash double tap bolter hell and prepare to charge the following turn.

 

The function of this is to do a hammer and anvil or hinged door tactic. The DC push threats toward big guns and the assault terminators.

 

The terminators and DC are able to take on MC units or riptides/wraithknights, however they are mainly to tie up those units to prevent them from shooting with good saves, FNP, and fearless. The Reclusiarch can also hit MCs with his mace to concuss them so that the termies can smash them to bits.

 

 

While this is going on between turns 1 and 2, the razorback units can hop to various objectives while firing their weapons or hunter killer missiles to destroy things like raider spam. Dropped off tactical units are mainly for moving and shooting while the sgt can activate his combi flamer to clear off a unit or deter an assault.

 

By splitting up the razors and tacticals, you now have 6 troop scoring objective takers to grab and deny.

 

 

Only problem with this list will foreseeably be flyers, which you'll need to use some tactics to move your units out of their movement arc and try to take them down with 2 TLACs and 2 Lasplas.

 

 

Thoughts? Has anyone tried something similar? Am I crazy? :P

[Cronhour]

If you switched them to assault marines you'd free up some points, could give the reclusiarch termie armour and the DC a couple of swords for ap3 at initiative.

[depthcharge12]

If you switched them to assault marines you'd free up some points, could give the reclusiarch termie armour and the DC a couple of swords for ap3 at initiative.

I was thinking of doing assault marines, however, I feel that shooting is still king in 7th edition and the ability to stick a combi flamer on the sarge and shoot at units while holding an objective is better. ASM squads in a razorback can't assault when they disembark and can't lend any support to the rest of the list. I did have some extra points that I had for the extra armor and dozer blades, which I might put towards the power weapons.

[knife&fork]

Only problem with this list will foreseeably be flyers, which you'll need to use some tactics to move your units out of their movement arc and try to take them down with 2 TLACs and 2 Lasplas.

Thoughts? Has anyone tried something similar? Am I crazy?

What if you don't get 1st turn?

I've used razors every game so far in 7th. I don't think they are durable enough. If you have some way of outflanking them, great, they are useful because now they can alpha strike something when they come on board. Starting them on the table? No thanks.

In regards to screening that can work but it also comes with a few problems.

1. Enemy might still be able to draw LoS, so just 5+ cover which you might have anyway.

2. Your scoring transports cannot be deployed as aggressively, meaning that you might lose one turn getting in position as you need to stay behind the higher AV unit.

3. The screening AV becomes more exposed. With predator hulls (and anything AV13 front but worse sides) you sometimes need to hug your table edge to protect that side AV on turn one. This becomes almost impossible if you need to fit another rhino hull behind you for screening purposes.

Pods work better as the troop transport of choice, particularly now with objective secured and the deathwind launcher which can add to the alpha strike.

Nothing wrong with a single razor strictly for scoring purposes (possibly kept in reserves) but they aren't good enough for frontline duty.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

If you switched them to assault marines you'd free up some points, could give the reclusiarch termie armour and the DC a couple of swords for ap3 at initiative.

I was thinking of doing assault marines, however, I feel that shooting is still king in 7th edition and the ability to stick a combi flamer on the sarge and shoot at units while holding an objective is better. ASM squads in a razorback can't assault when they disembark and can't lend any support to the rest of the list. I did have some extra points that I had for the extra armor and dozer blades, which I might put towards the power weapons.

 

 

Well, can 5 man tacticals take a special weapon in the BA codex? 

 

Don't think they can.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

If you switched them to assault marines you'd free up some points, could give the reclusiarch termie armour and the DC a couple of swords for ap3 at initiative.

 

I was thinking of doing assault marines, however, I feel that shooting is still king in 7th edition and the ability to stick a combi flamer on the sarge and shoot at units while holding an objective is better. ASM squads in a razorback can't assault when they disembark and can't lend any support to the rest of the list. I did have some extra points that I had for the extra armor and dozer blades, which I might put towards the power weapons.

 

Well, can 5 man tacticals take a special weapon in the BA codex? 

 

Don't think they can.

Shoot. You're right :P maybe then take a ten man squad and have one do over watch while the other moves up

[Zynk Kaladin]

 

Pods work better as the troop transport of choice, particularly now with objective secured and the deathwind launcher which can add to the alpha strike. 

Nothing wrong with a single razor strictly for scoring purposes (possibly kept in reserves) but they aren't good enough for frontline duty. 

 

 

I noticed the deathwind launcher is making its way into lists now.  To me it feels horribly expensive for what little potential damage it can inflict.  Why the sudden change?

[knife&fork]

 

I noticed the deathwind launcher is making its way into lists now.  To me it feels horribly expensive for what little potential damage it can inflict.  Why the sudden change?

 

 

Because it can now fire on the turn you drop. 

 

A S5 large blast right in the middle of your lines hurt many lists and synergies well with units that can kill transports. 

 

The 20 pts we pay is a bit steep, but any kills you can score that early are worth it. Also makes removing a pod from an objective somewhat troublesome for many of the cheap objective takers. Things like Gaunts. Orks, Eldar and Daemons can't just ignore that blast like they can a storm bolter and AV12 all around are troublesome for many of the above..

[Zynk Kaladin]

 

Because it can now fire on the turn you drop.

 

Holy carp, I really need to get with the times and wrap my talons around the new rulebook.  That's huge.  Thanks for the info!

[depthcharge12]

 

I noticed the deathwind launcher is making its way into lists now.  To me it feels horribly expensive for what little potential damage it can inflict.  Why the sudden change?

 

 

Because it can now fire on the turn you drop. 

 

A S5 large blast right in the middle of your lines hurt many lists and synergies well with units that can kill transports. 

 

The 20 pts we pay is a bit steep, but any kills you can score that early are worth it. Also makes removing a pod from an objective somewhat troublesome for many of the cheap objective takers. Things like Gaunts. Orks, Eldar and Daemons can't just ignore that blast like they can a storm bolter and AV12 all around are troublesome for many of the above..

 

The blast is sorta nice but the 12" range and ap- is a bummer. Granted, most units you take shots at with the launcher have bad enough saves to begin with, but it's still something to consider.

 

More or less I wouldn't take one because of the range and the fact it can scatter right back on your disembarking unit because of that short range.

[Morticon]

I think freeing up 140 points via the TAC -> ASM switch is far, far better a deal than getting 20 bolters.

 

Get a baal, or something else to make up for the shooting.  

[Remtek]

Razorbacks are still squishy but not if you compare them to point cost it's around 18 points per hullpoint (though you are forced to take troops this increases the cost in a relative way), but for a Vindicator you are looking at 51 points per hullpoints. On the other end of the specter you have the Land Raider at 60 points per hull point, but immune to alot of firepower making it also efficient at the point cost. You actually want to use your razorbacks (the ones without upgrades) to protect the vindicators. The exception would be vs wave serpents or something similar, then it would be better to make the av13 wall.

 

I think the termies can be a good idea in MSU as they slow down the game in general, though if you want msu spam you need alot more razorbacks. I like the vindis, they will probably soak most str 8+ hits in the first turns.  If it's a friendly game, bringing a 6 razorback list to Maelstorm will make things very one sided vs most lists. If you are playing kill point though a razorspam list will almost auto-loose. 

 

For objective games 6 razorbacks is gonna give your opponent tons of issues taking them out, and he still needs to prioritize high threat targets aswell coming frome drop pods or a death star land raider, but this is very cheesy to bring to friendly games and may be frowned upon at your local club. I think you can squeeze in 6 razorbacks (3 upgraded) and use the weaker ones for mobile cover. 

 

 

Concept of spamming:

To bring so many similar units, that your opponent does not have enough good units vs AV11, this would mean vs many lists he would on avg. use 9-10 game turns to kill all of them. For example LasCannons are good vs av13, vs AV11 not so much. A devsquad with 4 LC's  will use 2 full turns on avg. to kill a Razorback in cover (55 points), vs Vindicator in the same scenario it wont take the dev squad much longer to take out the same target, but the reward for doing so is 3 times as much.

 

You could also bring 5 land raiders and assume the opposing force would lack sufficient melta, but it will be a pretty boring game :P.

 

Flipside of spamming is some list will hard counter you due to spamming your exact counter. 

[knife&fork]

Fair enough, even eldar serpent or necron tesla lists might have a problem wiping you off the board before the game ends if you really spam. 

 

Maybe something like this:

 

Detachment 1:

Librarian

3* frag cannon furioso in pods

6* 5 man assault squads with flamer and TL assault cannon razors

 

Deatchment 2 (or allied detachment if comped)

Librarian 

2* 5 man assault squads with flamer and TL assault cannon razors

 

Or if you go really hog wild with the razorback spam (get it, 'hog'?) you replace those frag cannon dreads with 3 more razor squads.

 

 

It will take a lot of time and firepower to kill off 30-40 hull points + 42-57 marines divided up in that many different targets. Question is if you can outscore your opponent while getting hammered?

[knife&fork]

If you want to spam, I think the flamer + TL-AC squad does the best job. Let me explain why.

 

TL-AC is decent vs light infantry, elite infantry, monsters and other vehicles. It's somewhat weak vs light infantry in cover (the flamers and fragcannons help here), AV13-14 (offset somewhat by the frag dreads) and flyers (but still ok considering the spammable ones have at least one facing with AV10).

 

With the most amount of TL shots they are least affected by snap shots (most common results on the damage tables).

 

All in all they make for a great choice when going for maximum redundancy. Start toying around with different loadouts and you get a force that's more vulnerable to being picked apart.

[Remtek]

That looks really strong. Opponent will have to deal with the dreads while your extremly mobile force saturates objectives. Though i do like the idea of adding atleast one cheap razorback with heavy flamers or something that can be a mobile throwaway cover unit or very strong at taking out weak infantry (Lootas, markerlight pathfinders, necron warriors etc). Having a twin linked ap4 template for 55 points is great value and can function as a cheap screen vs fully mechanized lists. 

 

Perhaps downgrading 2 razorbacks and adding a landspeeder/Attack bike with multimelta?

[Remtek]

If you want to spam, I think the flamer + TL-AC squad does the best job. Let me explain why.

 

TL-AC is decent vs light infantry, elite infantry, monsters and other vehicles. It's somewhat weak vs light infantry in cover (the flamers and fragcannons help here), AV13-14 (offset somewhat by the frag dreads) and flyers (but still ok considering the spammable ones have at least one facing with AV10).

 

With the most amount of TL shots they are least affected by snap shots (most common results on the damage tables).

 

All in all they make for a great choice when going for maximum redundancy. Start toying around with different loadouts and you get a force that's more vulnerable to being picked apart.

Yeah i agree on the TLAC is superior. Lasplas is stronger when Razorbacks are not fast. 24 " is a very safe distance vs assault aswell. Rapid fire plasma which is ideal with lasplas leaves you alot easier to assault. 

[knife&fork]

That looks really strong. Opponent will have to deal with the dreads while your extremly mobile force saturates objectives. Though i do like the idea of adding atleast one cheap razorback with heavy flamers or something that can be a mobile throwaway cover unit or very strong at taking out weak infantry (Lootas, markerlight pathfinders, necron warriors etc).  

 

The problem is getting there as units like that will hug the back field. They are a often a good target for the frag dreads anyway as you want to protect your rear and side AV while forcing the attention of your opponent in different directions. Getting outflank from a warlord trait could be handy but it's a long shot. Allied razors from a raven guard detachment can solve this but they are much less effective as they lack 'fast'.

 

You could run something like this:

 

2 librarians

3 podded frag dreads with magna grapples

6 flamer + TLAC squads

2 melta + TLHF squads

 

1 MM attack bike or dozerblades all around (could be a wise investment)

 

Stays belows 2k points but it's starting to dilute the theme somewhat. Not sure if it's stronger or not. 

[depthcharge12]

 

That looks really strong. Opponent will have to deal with the dreads while your extremly mobile force saturates objectives. Though i do like the idea of adding atleast one cheap razorback with heavy flamers or something that can be a mobile throwaway cover unit or very strong at taking out weak infantry (Lootas, markerlight pathfinders, necron warriors etc).

 

 

The problem is getting there as units like that will hug the back field. They are a often a good target for the frag dreads anyway as you want to protect your rear and side AV while forcing the attention of your opponent in different directions. Getting outflank from a warlord trait could be handy but it's a long shot. Allied razors from a raven guard detachment can solve this but they are much less effective as they lack 'fast'.

 

You could run something like this:

 

2 librarians

3 podded frag dreads with magna grapples

6 flamer + TLAC squads

2 melta + TLHF squads

 

1 MM attack bike or dozerblades all around (could be a wise investment)

 

Stays belows 2k points but it's starting to dilute the theme somewhat. Not sure if it's stronger or not.

 

It would be interesting...if you can take telepathy on some Libby dreads and hope for invisibility....that would be wicked

 

 

I think that with the two librarians you might want to find something other than biomancy (not combat heavy) or divination (don't need prescience or many other shooting buffs as you don't have much other than the razors). It would've been nice to have kept our powers like fear of the darkness but oh well