Balance between Troops, Support with CT, Support without CT

[GreyCrow]

Greetings Battle Brothers !

 

After a few games in 7th edition, Troops in Battleforged armies with Objective Secured have gotten a lot stronger on the battlefield, and particularly shine in Maelstrom of War missions.

 

The problem I found with Codex: Space Marines is that it's very easy to invest hefty points in support units and overall lose track because there are just so many cool or iconic units to choose from !

 

In 7th edition, more than ever, a healthy (sizeable ?) amount of Troops choices is needed, and this takes up precious points from the support units (of which a large number was viable as a contesting strategy back in 6th).

 

More importantly, our Trops are extremely expensive and versatile compared to other Codexes, meaning that non Troops units clearly become true support.

 

The new Chapter Tactics have added a layer of complexity on top of that, because it creates 2 categories of Support : one that benefits from Chapter Tactics and one that does not (vehicles in most cases except in the case of Iron Hands).

 

So, after 6 weeks of 7th edition, what balance between Troops, Support units that benefit from your chosen Chapter Tactics and Support units that don't benefit from your Chapter Tactics, in games of 1500 to 2000 points ?

 

How does that translate in terms of points spent in your list ? How many % of points do you respectively invest in :

- Troops

- Support with CT

- Support without CT

 

[minigun762]

For my, I've always been troop heavy and BT chapter tactics give you the ability to take big nasty AV14 transports with super scoring status to protect the super scoring troops inside. This makes it easier to invest heavily in "troops" and take support units that fill in the gaps that my troops can't cover (like anti air). 

[Ishagu]

Two squads of 10 Tactical Marines in Rhinos. Classic loadout is combi plasma, plasma.

 

No more, no less.

 

Although troops are great for securing objectives, the basic Marines aren't particularly cost effective. You want to bring enough so they last and can do damage through volume of dice, but at the same time not spend too many points as other units are much more damaging or more survivable or more mobile..

[GreyCrow]

For my, I've always been troop heavy and BT chapter tactics give you the ability to take big nasty AV14 transports with super scoring status to protect the super scoring troops inside. This makes it easier to invest heavily in "troops" and take support units that fill in the gaps that my troops can't cover (like anti air). 

 

OS Land Raiders, why do you BT get all the shinies ! :p

 

 

Two squads of 10 Tactical Marines in Rhinos. Classic loadout is combi plasma, plasma.

 

No more, no less.

 

Although troops are great for securing objectives, the basic Marines aren't particularly cost effective. You want to bring enough so they last and can do damage through volume of dice, but at the same time not spend too many points as other units are much more damaging or more survivable or more mobile..

 

You take 2 full squads at 1500 and 2000 points ? Did you encounter any issues at 2000 points in terms of survivability ?

[Ishagu]

In some games at 2k they have all been killed, in others I only lost a few after the transports were eventually destroyed.

 

Just be cautious with deployment and when you eventually advance them. Don't make them the most obvious target for the enemy and if need be play defensive.

[GreyCrow]

Did you have a lot of bodies in the other squads ?

[Ishagu]

Funny enough no. My most recent list consisted of 3 flyers, Grav Centurions, Coteaz, Chapter Master with Shield Eternal and Thunder Hammer, Imperial Knight and a Landraider (a few other units sprinkled about)

 

In total I only had about 30 bodies not counting vehicles.

 

A single grav centurion has arguably more killing power in shooting against PA equivalent than a whole tactical squad. (hurricane bolter and 5 shot grav cannon)

 

My list has multiple high profile threats, and I slowly advanced as to not give my opponent an obvious target. Soon enough the flyers arrived and I proceeded to sweep through the table.

 

Although I didn't have many bodies I was covered in the air, protected from deepstrike, had a focus on shooting but fielded two powerful cc units in the chapter master and Imperial Knight as a deterrent, and had heavy armour to shield the squads. The flyers and grav were responsible for dealing the majority of my offense.

 

Finesse is required when playing small number armies as any loss is significant...

 

Anyways, two 10 man Tactical Squads with Combi and Special Weapons in transports will run you about 400 points. I don't feel good spending more on troops UNLESS I happen to know I'm fighting a horde in which case I might add a 5 man dual flamer squad in a drop pod to cause a bit of damage turn 1 :-P

[GreyCrow]

I see, thanks for the input ! ;)

 

I currently run 2 full Tactical squads in Rhinos at 1500 points (roughly 500 points), along with a Command Squad with my HQ in a Razorback, a Stormtalon, a Dreadnought in a Pod, a 5 man assault squad and a 5 man Devastator squad and I'm eyeing for a Stormraven and Terminator squad (along with 2 Teleport Homers on the Tacticals) to bump up my force to 2000 and I really wondered whether I should take them or take one of them only along with a 10 man Scout squad or drop one of my support units to get the 2 of them and the Scout squad, etc.

 

I'm reaching the point where I have many models that I like and I want to see them on the table without sacrificing the effectiveness, and the choices are harder to make ! :p

[knife&fork]

How often do you find yourself sitting with two units (yours and the opponents) on an objective? How important is it actually to have a lot of 'objective secured' units? 

 

Even though they are supposed to be the bees knees in this edition, with 10+ they haven't been a deciding factor in a single match. I think as we progress we'll find that killing off the opponent and being alone on objectives is what matters. 

[GreyCrow]

How often do you find yourself sitting with two units yours and the opponent) on an objective? How important is it actually to have a lot of 'objective secured' units? 

 

Even though they are supposed to be the bees knees in this edition, with 10+ they haven't been a deciding factor in a single match. I think as we progress we'll find that killing off the opponent and being alone on objectives is what matters. 

 

I've had this issue a lot of times actually. Most recently, I lost a game to a superb daring rush of 4 Sisters of Battle in a Rhino to an objective in my backfield, giving him 2 objective cards !

 

Of course, Troops shouldn't be taken solely for objective grabbing and giving them a few upgrades to contribute through the game is a given obviously.

[knife&fork]

 

I've had this issue a lot of times actually. Most recently, I lost a game to a superb daring rush of 4 Sisters of Battle in a Rhino to an objective in my backfield, giving him 2 objective cards !

 

 

 

Where you holding that objective with a non-'objective secured' unit? I've generally found that movement-blocking to prevent getting within 3" is what decides who gets to cap an objective. 

[minigun762]

Chapter Tactics aside, the Tactical Marine has two offensive strengths.

1) killing light infantry

2) destroying light-medium vehicles

 

If you really want to minimize your troop investment but still get a good value, my advice is to add a Flamer and a Melta Bomb. These small investments increase your two primary strengths by a significant margin. Add a Rhino or Drop Pod and you're still south of 200 points per squad.