Comparing the Dark Angels to the Codex Astartes

[Prot]

Hello,

 

I don't know if this is going to turn into a good conversation but I hope so. I certainly don't want it to turn into a 'Dark Angels codex sucks' discussion, so please let's not go there.

 

With that being said I just wanted to discuss a comparison of the DA codex with the Space Marines codex.

 

The reason I bring this up is because I have been on the fence about transitioning into a new Chapter. Namely the Imp Fists/Crimson Fists.

 

I'm not saying I won't do this transition, but in the process I really examined some things and I found that Dark Angels aren't that far off...

 

Things I think that puts the Space Marine codex ahead:

 

- Maybe most obviously the Chapter Tactics. These are wide sweeping abilities that can completely change the feel of a space marine army. Dark Angels are stubborn.

 

- Sternguard/Vanguard. Sternguard moreso for myself. DA only have access to 'normal' vets, whereas Sternguard are a great all around toolbox.

 

- Devastator Centurions. Grav weapons in this unit are fantastic. We really don't have anything like them.

 

- Flyers. Both the SM flyers are pretty darn good.

 

- Thunderfire Canon. Cheap but very useful. I've been on the receiving end of this enough to wish I could take one.

 

- Iron Clad Dread. I really wish we could take these. That AV13 is the magic number.

 

- Scouts mounted in scout speeders. I really like this unit for double super scoring option on the cheap.

 

That's actually quite a bit and I left out stuff that is kind of chapter specific because while I can say it would be great to have 5 man Las/Plas squads, only Black Templars can do that.

 

So Dark Angels give up all of that to retain a uniqueness, and the most obvious of those to me are:

 

- The Nephilim. I don't want to debate the unit. There's so many threads about it already and they usually end up getting a little heated. Suffice to say, I don't use it anymore. Dark Talon is another option here... perhaps very good with the Dakka Banner?

 

- Banners. Dark Angel Banners are pretty cool. Some are very short range, a little hard to pull off, but cool nonetheless and unique.

 

- Deathwing Knights. I am mixed about these. I feel too many games where I wish I had shooting in the squad, or they come down to having Smite, and then feel kind of mediocre at times, but still a good unit. Not going to complain.

 

- Ravenwing Black Knights. Love em. Multi-use, very flexible, hard hitting, and hit and run. One of the highlights of the codex for me.

 

- Great HQ's. I actually think the Dark Angels have fantastic named HQ's. I find some of them actually (almost) make up for not having chapter tactics. For instance, Belial, Azrael, and Sammael all have the ability to change the force org chart which is quite potent in 7th.

 

- PFG. Power Field Generator, it has some very specific applications that can make it a strong, unique piece of wargear.

 

- Shroud Speeder. Very short range, and dangerous if used wrong (promotes bunching up), but it's still a plus, and unique to DA. Vengeance Speeder.... not so good, and got wacked by 7th edition pretty hard.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

I must have missed some stuff. What do you guys think I missed? Anything for Codex Astartes you really wish you could have? Or what do you think DA do really well that the other guys can't?

[Cactus]

We have more resilient land raiders, with dozer blades. I personally don't care for the stormtalon/raven or centurions because they're such ugly models.

 

It would be nice to have the sternguard special ammo available somewhere, and I'm still baffled by the omission of the mortis dreadnought, but those are minor niggles.

[SvenONE]

Dark Angels Codex Sucks!  

 

Kidding (or am I???)

 

I think when you compare them as being played as pure codices, you'll see some gaps.  But if played as combined forces there are some decent things in there.  You can get some good stuff as allies out of the CSM book, TFC, LSS/Scouts or, as we had in another discussion, something like the Stormwing detachment.

 

The Thunderfire Cannon is intangible, it's got to be one of THE best artillery pieces out there (for its cost).  Combine it with Prescience... well you get the idea.  I think because we have Prescience we weren't given the TFC (then again Tigirius can get it...).  Whirlwinds aren't bad, but you can't compare them.  Anything that keeps placing templates down, is always going to be better...

 

The HQs is a tough nut to crack.  There are just so many in C:SM the levels of customization of the Captain/Chapter Master are I would say head and tails above the Company Master.  Named HQs however there are just so many C:SM to choose from, of course the difference is that you've got to take that Chapter's Tactics.  Calgar costs a lot, but is well-rounded.  Azrael costs a lot, is ok in close combat and has some utility but is more or less a tax to open up troop choices.

 

I can see why and accept the differences between some of them.  The only thing I actually wish we had were scouts and landspeeder storms.  I feel they would completely fit within the Ravenwing Fluff, after all 10th company is a reserve company that assists the others in their task.  Scouts and Stubborn make the most sense as a unit gameplay wise.  Close combat scouts giving their lives holding an enemy in place.

 

Quite honestly, I'm sick of Inner Circle/Grim Resolve as Chapter Special rules.  If you put them in line with the rest of the Chapter Tactics -- rubbish.

 

At the end of the day however we're still far more interesting than any of the other Chapters (except maybe our Dog cousins)

[march10k]

Prot,

 

It seems that some of your comments fall short of the usual standard of objectivity.  For example, you criticize DA vets (which I don't use) as being "normal," in a way that implies that they're substandard, then combine that with praising sternguard as being well-rounded.  That seems like a very biased and misleading comparison.  I would certainly say that sternguard are better, but I would say that they're purely a shooty squad, whereas the DA equivalent is actually the well-rounded toolkit, allowing you to customize your own preferred mix of shooting and face-smashing options.  

 

You've definitely left some stuff out.  You mention that our named characters allow FOC changes, but the specific implications, and the combinations that that allows are missing.  For example, taking deathwing as troops allows you to take land raiders with "objective secured."  That's pretty sexy!  Combine that with "deathwing vehicle" and a PFG, and you're well on the way to "broken."

 

You also left out deathwing vehicle and deathwing assault, not to mention the deathwing command squad with all its options, and the (not that I'm thrilled with it) terminator plasma cannon option.  

[Prot]

Prot,

 

It seems that some of your comments fall short of the usual standard of objectivity.  For example, you criticize DA vets (which I don't use) as being "normal," in a way that implies that they're substandard, then combine that with praising sternguard as being well-rounded.  That seems like a very biased and misleading comparison.  I would certainly say that sternguard are better, but I would say that they're purely a shooty squad, whereas the DA equivalent is actually the well-rounded toolkit, allowing you to customize your own preferred mix of shooting and face-smashing options.  

 

You've definitely left some stuff out.  You mention that our named characters allow FOC changes, but the specific implications, and the combinations that that allows are missing.  For example, taking deathwing as troops allows you to take land raiders with "objective secured."  That's pretty sexy!  Combine that with "deathwing vehicle" and a PFG, and you're well on the way to "broken."

 

You also left out deathwing vehicle and deathwing assault, not to mention the deathwing command squad with all its options, and the (not that I'm thrilled with it) terminator plasma cannon option.  

 

I actually didn't criticize DA vets, I simply implied they are 'normal' (in quotations) meaning... as long as I can recall normal veterans, they have a flexible load out of weapon types meaning meltas/plasmas or whatever. In my mind, Sternguard are not typical vets and I personally would take their special ammo, and choices over our Vets. But that's why I put this up for conversation... to keep it 'objective'. 

 

Deathwing touches are certainly nice, I just kind of compared them to chapter tactics, which I didn't want to get into because it's such a large area (IE: the black Templars example. or say.... twin linked half range bolt weapons for Sentinels of Terra, etc, etc. Everyone chapter seems to offer something of that magnitude and I thought it's up to the individual if they value that or not.)

 

Deathwing is probably where I'm most liable to miss stuff as I didn't play it very much, but again, that's why I was hoping for people to speak up. ;)

[Epimetheus13]

I'm looking at using Vanilla Codex "allies", but using Forgeworld's Astral Claws Chapter Tactics (stubborn, plus skilled rider for bikes) and painting them same colour scheme as my DA force. In my headcanon, there's no fluffy reason DAs don't have the toys that Vanilla Chapters have...

 

The "Astral Angels" will add elements that complement and magnify DAs' existing strengths, but I don't see them adding anything that DAs couldn't do already. A DA firebase can be complemented by a Thunder Cannon and a Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer, while Sammael's outflank/hit & run with a squad of Attack Bikes complements a Ravenwing firce perfectly. Stubborn Scout squads in Storms, with teleport homers and jamming beacons, will be a sheer joy to field. At the end of the day, however, DAs have toys that fulfill all the above strategic needs in-codex, it just gets done differently.

 

The only truly unique addition will be anti-air, in the form of roving Sormtalons or stationary Hunter/Stalker tanks. Vanilla characters are also better beatsticks, but I don't see that necessarily featuring in my lists.

[Epimetheus13]

Sorry, I realized I might not have addressed the OP's question! (And cant seem to edit my post on the mobile site.)

 

Basically, I don't see alot of loss in strategic play style options in moving from DAs to Vanilla, it's just a matter of using slightly different tools.

[Prot]

Sorry, I realized I might not have addressed the OP's question! (And cant seem to edit my post on the mobile site.)

 

Basically, I don't see alot of loss in strategic play style options in moving from DAs to Vanilla, it's just a matter of using slightly different tools.

 

I agree. It's about using the right tools for the job. I have found ways around some of the lacking components of the DA codex, but I don't know if I would say I feel I lose strategic playstyle moving from one codex to the other... they're just different.

 

The other consideration I don't bring up though is points cost. I think a unit can be, let's say, mediocre if it's cheap enough. Likewise a good unit can still be over priced. For me DA flyers fall into a very mediocre (if not completely strange feeling to me) but at too high a price. I think unfortunately when most people compare DA flyers (for example) it's the cost that makes them feel really out of line...

 

I still want to try a Dark Talon with Dakka Banner in hover mode... It could be beastly.... I really don't know.

[Bryan Blaire]

The DA Codex explains why we don't have a Master of the Forge option. The Master of the Rock just can't very well get up and move about with his fun toys.

 

I personally don't miss the Centurions, period: ugly models and stupid fluff justification. Thunder wolves have a better story than those things.

 

Sorry Prot, but these threads get old after coming up every few months or so and are rarely fully objective.

[Space Truckin]

Without getting into the details I feel the biggest disappointment with the codex is that it does not reflect the fluff and the fluff is the reason most of us play dark angels.

[FerociousBeast]

It matches the fluff just fine, in my opinion.

 

In my years on this board, I've found that opinions of the way the Unforgiven chapters "are supposed to be" vary far more widely than any other chapter or Chaos Legion I can think of.

 

(Well, the Space Wolves have a lot of internal theme contention nowadays, too... the Vlka Fenryka Blood Claws versus the old skool, traditionalist Longfangs... Makes for some entertaining lurking!)

[Ultra Magnus]

Setting aside issues of fluff & appearance, which fall under personal preference, here is how I would frame up the comparison.

 

Codex: Space Marines provides an extremely broad canvas upon which to build your army. Through its wide selection of unit types and chapter tactics, it provides the flexibility to create an army list tailored to any play style, be it, assault, drop pod, gunline, bike armies, mechanized, scout armies, or any combination in between. This inherent flexibility ensures you can rapidly adapt your growing collection to different concepts without much fuss, especially with a convenient switch of chapter tactics, allowing for lots of experimentation and replay value. This also makes it competitive at the codex level, as, while not every list will be "efficient" it is certainly possible to build one using the parts provided.

 

Codex: Dark Angels is a specialist army with a more niche play style not unlike the Dark Eldar who are built around a theme of fast, hard hitting, glass cannons. It is a marine army that is defined by it's unique wargear, units, and FOC switching abilities and requires the use of all of the above to create synergies and be successful. It appeals to those who enjoy the creativity and challenge of working within a set of constraints or rules to achieve success. It requires you to work from the template of several builds around which it is designed and rewards a superior general who is able to pull it all together. This set of design constraints prevents it from being as broadly competitive as Codex: Space Marines (along with some points and unit related challenges within the codex) but it does have the potential in competent hands to be tactically challenging and rewarding.

 

Which way you go I think largely depends on which model resonates more with your personality and gaming interests.

 

UM

[Prot]

The DA Codex explains why we don't have a Master of the Forge option. The Master of the Rock just can't very well get up and move about with his fun toys.

 

I personally don't miss the Centurions, period: ugly models and stupid fluff justification. Thunder wolves have a better story than those things.

 

Sorry Prot, but these threads get old after coming up every few months or so and are rarely fully objective.

 

 

No need to apologize, I had no idea this was a common thread here.

 

I realize it won't be purely subjective. I guess I meant it as a comparison of 'give and take'. Like, yea the Space Marines get Chapter Tactics, BUT the DA get force org changes and special characters that have 'chapter tactic' like abilities (Belial no deviation/twin linking on deep striking, etc.)

 

I was just kind of mulling it over in my own head as I tried to make a comparison for decision making... so I thought I'd bounce it here.... I guess it's been overdone then. Feel free to close the thread. My apologies.

 

BTW: I actually really enjoyed Thunderwolves! I played them in almost every list, and yes I took a lot of teasing for 'Wolves riding Wolfs' but my retort to Necron players would always be, 'Well you got robots riding robots', and then promptly shank them with a Frost blade.

 

I think a lot of codexes have units that have to grow on you or you'll never like them. Chaos had lots of units like that for me. Dark Angels I admit have stayed very... conservative... but that being said, I have been teased for having speeders and flyers with 'churches strapped to them'. lol

[Bryan Blaire]

Nah, won't close it down, just don't have the will to contribute to it all again.

 

I think there are some fluff reasons why the Dark Angels don't have certain things, and then there are the simple game mechanics of keeping the DA Codex from being Marines up to 11.

 

What I would like to see, more than anything, is simple parity on some of our gear, not that we need Grav weapons (although it seems more silly that everyone else gets Grav while we don't, when I feel like we could have given up plasma as a whole to go full on Grav Chapter, as older, more esoteric technology) or better bikes, or access to Storm Ravens and Talons, but simply that our war material is on somewhat equal footing vs. the C:SM stuff.

 

Edit: Something I will say that I haven't said before: One of the things I think is odd is that people look at the C:SM and go "Oh, it's a single book, so all the Chapters in there must use all this stuff all the time" and then compare it to a Codex that represents how a single Chapter (well, and it's Successors) fights on the battlefield. I really, really wish that there had been some adjustments to the Army List for materials available based on any given Chapter (well, Legion) Tactic. Something that gave the Chapters a flavor, rather than people with Imperial Fists Air Force and Raven Guard Thunderfire Cannons. Grav weapons are only available to the Iron Hands and the LR Redeemer only to the Salamanders. And for Heaven's sake, no more than one Dreadnought or Devastator squad per White Scars army. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense that they might not use them sometimes, but they don't use them every day on the battlefield, that just isn't reflected in their fluff, it's the type of thing that would be a supplement or campaign adjustment, IMO.

 

When you look at the idea of theming up a C:SM Chapter force to things that logically support their warfare style, you can very quickly trim the Army List choices down to a level that is a little more in keeping with the Dark Angels, IMO, because you can't have all of the best of everything (and no, I don't think the Dark Angels are stunted, again, I'd just like to see a little more parity).

 

TL:DR: In short, C:DA represents 1 Chapter, C:SM represents 6 Chapters, so the comparison of books isn't even going to be close to a parity comparison, you will always get more if you take the C:SM as a whole, single work. Break it down better by some equipment theming and you might get some more parity with C:DA.

[Prot]

That is true. It makes comparison difficult from that perspective. However what was advised to me is do a chapter up, let's say 'Stone Burners 2.0" and play any Chapter Trait I want, opening the entire book up.

 

Now I can't do that... it's just not my style, but in a way I feel I do the same thing with DA... the different wings. Some weeks I think, you know, I'm not going to take a thing that would be considered "Deathwing". In that way DA is very cool. You are playing the same chapter every week, but literally getting some really different feels for it.

 

About weaponry, the only thing I'd add there is I thought there is no reason the Nephilim should not have the Strength 8 missiles. Then again, BA have the best missiles, for some reason they get them from a better stockpile on Mars I suppose.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Like many here said, DA Codx is built around sinergy.Anyone that tries to play it like a "regular" Codex will fail, because it strives on the sinergy that some units combine create. We do have units that are sub-par, but then again any other codex out there will have them.. That's how GW sells models and codexes (or codecii): BY Making good out of bad and vice versa.

It's impossible (or very hard) to establish a point for point comparison between DA and regular Astartes Codex.

Take the humble tactical squad for instance. At first glance they seem the same for both except for grav guns, but then add a standard of devastation we have, and you have a horde control mechanism.

Take bikes and terminators. On a normal codex they will play isolated. On a DA Codex the bike "catapult" the terminators forward for mutual support.

It's those differences that make a point for point comparison very difficult because of some thing that make the same units playin a different way.

We do Lack some stuff from the SM Codex, but frankly I thinkwe only be spoiled for choice and would probably  take away the DA style of playing.. and without that what is the point of playing DA?

[SvenONE]

I would challenge that our synergy is any better than C:SMs when it comes to delivering terminators, I would almost wager that they can do it more efficiently and have more options if they so choose.  Our only advantage is that we don't have to roll, and our terminators are twin-linked when they arrive (both very big pluses).

 

Here's how we do it:

Bikes + Terminators = 300 Points without any wargear options.

 

Here's how they do it:

Scout Bikes w/LB + Terminators = 264 points without any wargear options, even if you make those terminators all Assault TH/SS it still comes in cheaper.

 

Aside from Drop Pods and Locator beacons, which we both share.  They also have:

Tactical Sarge w/LB in Rhino (Raven Guard)

Scout Sarge w/TH in LSS

Scout Sarge w/TH Infiltrating/scouting -- if they are in ruins with camo cloaks, and either Night Fighting or Raven Guard they are a 2+ cover.

 

Not only that, if we choose NOT to bring terminators in bike armies -- now we are overpaying for a teleport homer we won't be using.

 

Then are as far other synergy things go, you've got Ultramarines who have a Chapter Tactics which essentially makes ANY aspect of their army better (granted for a turn)

[Space Truckin]

I would challenge that our synergy is any better than C:SMs when it comes to delivering terminators, I would almost wager that they can do it more efficiently and have more options if they so choose.  Our only advantage is that we don't have to roll, and our terminators are twin-linked when they arrive (both very big pluses).

 

Here's how we do it:

Bikes + Terminators = 300 Points without any wargear options.

 

Here's how they do it:

Scout Bikes w/LB + Terminators = 264 points without any wargear options, even if you make those terminators all Assault TH/SS it still comes in cheaper.

 

Aside from Drop Pods and Locator beacons, which we both share.  They also have:

Tactical Sarge w/LB in Rhino (Raven Guard)

Scout Sarge w/TH in LSS

Scout Sarge w/TH Infiltrating/scouting -- if they are in ruins with camo cloaks, and either Night Fighting or Raven Guard they are a 2+ cover.

 

Not only that, if we choose NOT to bring terminators in bike armies -- now we are overpaying for a teleport homer we won't be using.

 

Then are as far other synergy things go, you've got Ultramarines who have a Chapter Tactics which essentially makes ANY aspect of their army better (granted for a turn)

 

I was also thinking more or less of terminators fluff wise - but in the fact we have an entire 1st company that fights exclusively in terminator armour. 

Yes DA have lots of nice special units and rules but shouldn't our normal  Terminators get some kind of stat bump for being so specialized or maybe a discount instead of costing more because we have so freaking many of them?

 

Please forgive me because I don't think this was the direction of discussion Brother Prot had intended for this thread.  I didn't want to get in specifics but this has been on my mind lately.  

 

Edit: 

Let me also state  that I'm also getting back into wh40k and it's been 20+ years since I've played a game!  But when I last played against Terminators they were tough as nails!  

[Chaplain Lucifer]

@SvenOne: Yes they have those options, but do they use them as much as we do ours? I never seen scout bikes on the table or scouts using HB for terminators in many years. Maybe because while they're good/not bad, they don't have the bonuses we get for our terminators or simply it's too much of a risk to use scouts that other than being a homing beacon they are good for not much else since they got bumped down to WS3 BS3... Or maybe it's something else.

I think you are misinterpretating my usage of the word sinergy in that context. I didn't claim ours was better, only that we have to make more use of it to make DA army work.

DA players have limited units to choose from and the unique units we have contribute to that whole as an army. Of course any army can be built with sinergy between units, and the more the better. It's just that DA must have it if it wants to be sucessfull.

 

Example 1:

DA and SM both have the exact same army in more or less the same range of points. If both armies have bikes and terminators, the DA will automatically have 2 units that work well together better than the C:SM because they were designed for it. As a result the DA can take advantage of that designed sinergy to better his chances to win.

Example 2:

If a SM picks an army he can have some choices that automatically are good even when not having in mind sinergy with other units from the Codex. DA will have a harder time doing that because if you take unit "x" you'll want to take unit "y" to potentiate both because unit "x" may not be good alone. We don't have that many "star" units.. I would risk that we only have RW black knights as that kind of star unit that will perform good no matter what.

I hope I made myself clear this time..

[Prot]

The conversation is all good. I enjoy it. I find exploring these things helps me gain perspective not only on the best way Dark Angels can function but in also keeping in check that feeling of 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence'. 

 

SvenOne, I think that's a pretty interesting comparison. Raven Guard are very unique in that way. And I understand the synergy you're talking about there. I honestly have never seen that employed on the battlefield though (doesn't mean it can't  work, just I can't comment on it because I haven't fought it.)

 

If we're talking pure synergy, I will say that my version of synergy seems very satisfied with something like my Az-Zeke Bomb lists. In those lists, the inclusion of Azrael lets me bring in a very nice harmony of all three wings and none of it feels... wedged in. It flows, and works together very nicely. 

 

Now I've heard the debates about White Scars doing bikes better, but can they draw from Termies, bikes, and Tacticals in the same way as DA? I'd say no. 

 

Synergy for some chapters is quite smooth if you play it right though. Like Iron Hands and vehicles... I'm wondering if they might actually be better with multi Landraiders, and those AV13 dreadnaughts..... where as I don't think anyone mixes with bikes, speeders, termies and tacticals like DA do (even if there is a bit of a debate on points inefficiencies.)

[SvenONE]

You're entirely on point that those things are seldom seen Luci, but my example was simply to highlight that SM more or less has the same options to them to bring about a similar synergy.  To me, that undermines our being unique in that sense, especially if we're paying more to do it.  We run those units combos because it's clearly obvious that GW wants us to bring Terminators with our bikes and vice versa, but when it comes to building a list, is it optimized to do so? I say no.  Believe you me, if we had LSS and Scouts, you can bet your 1st Company Standard that I'm going to use DWA next to my LSS full of stubborn close combat scouts, or my infiltrated scout snipers if they had telehomers.

 

Those delivery methods (via deep strike that is) are also seldom seen with the SM codex is because because LRs and Stormravens are just much better and more reliable as delivery methods and as units themselves.  For them however, if SM puts their terminators in a Land Raider, they aren't missing out on any bonuses that are available to them.  If we put them in a landraider we then forfeit enjoying a no-roll Turn 1 or 2 deep strike, and the twin linked shots that come with it.  Now we just became more expensive terminators who do exactly what other terminators do, perhaps even less when considering chapter tactics.  Now granted, DWV is perhaps THE best upgrade a vehicle can have in the game, a 14/14/14 one for that matter.  But we just paid 50 points extra at the end of the day.  

 

Only in 7th edition did we get a HUGE boost in DWT when dedicated transports were given Objective Secured, while nice, I think it's secondary to the fact that vehicles can now score unconditionally.  I'll be also honest to say that I hardly think GW had DA in mind when writing rules like that.  Of the games I've observed, I've RARELY seen OS contesting objectives with non-OS units in games.  So Landraiders being Objective Scored for me, is just a small situational bonus on top of the fact I'm now able to park it on an objective and score claim it if no one is nearby.  Don't forget nothing's stopping you from Tank Shocking an Objective Secured unit off an objective and claiming it anyway, if it's a vehicle you're going to get a +1 to your ram for the dozer blade upgrade (never leave home without it) as well.

 

In the end this codex gets in the way of itself I think when it comes to unit synergy, I still assert that it was more or less written with 5th edition rules in mind (prevalence of power swords).  It's so close to being a good codex if it was tweaked (playtested).

[Darkangeldentist]

SvenOne, I sympathise with your grievence about wishing those tactics and options associated with Dark angels stood out more as unique valuable and that the space marine book in particular could not replicate them but I feel you're asking too much. I think Chaplain Lucifer has made the right observations, which is that whilst regular space marines can perform similar tactics and set-ups we don't see them do so because it's just not as good as their other options. The fact the Space marine book has other more favoured options conceals the relevent fact that they cannot execute these strategies and tactics as well as the Dark angels. Deathwing assault, vengeful strike, mixed unit composition and scouting Ravenwing bikers perform the tactic of aggressive alpha striking using deep strike better than any other army in the game. We may not use it all the time but we do it well enough to make it a very valid tactic.

 

Deathwing terminators cost more than regular terminators because of the advantages they have over them. Now the argument about whether the additional cost is correct is questionable, most of the rules and abilities are niche at best and the cost makes an expensive unit even more so. However these small changes make Dark angels very different from other chapters because of what gets fielded. It has been a long time since I last saw a regular stormbolter and powerfist terminator fielded in a space marine list, they've all been thunder hammer and storm shields. We commonly field a lot of them as well but you are far, far more likely to find the classic terminator load-out in a dark angel army than you are in any other astartes force. Split-fire ups the value of their ranged game significantly for all kinds of reasons and vengeful strike makes that first round of shooting a lot better.

 

Ravenwing attack squadrons are a similar story. Their abilities and in particular those differences from the space marine codex mean that Dark angel armies tend to be built very differently and overall I would say that Ravenwing remain the best space marine bikers of them because of their overall package. They cost more and space marines can copy some aspects of them but not all of them and certainly not all at once. Grim resolve with hit and run can provide a much greater degree of control with combats than space marines could manage and scout is an amazing rule on such a fast unit with teleport homers and access to cheap special weapons. The Ravenwing attack bike is borderline broken in my eyes because of how many games that scouting multimelta has swung in my favour. With objective secured the fact we can get 3 highly mobile units with that rule for one organisation slot is a big deal.

 

Deathwing terminators and Ravenwing are unique units for Dark angels despite having very similar counter-parts within the space marine book. That those options are extremely similar on paper is less important after realising that the differences that do exist mean Dark angels field these units in a great variety of ways effectively whereas space marines rarely if ever do.

 

I also count our command squads as a unique flavour element that lands in favour of the Dark angels. The ravenwing and deathwing command squads are excellent choices with some very characterful elements. What really stands them apart are the sacred standards which can change how the whole army works and are another example of how small(ish) changes create very different list builds that play effectively on the table.

 

Sometimes it's the minor differences that make for the most dramatic changes to how people will construct lists and field their armies. The Dark angel book has a good number of these types of fairly subtle differences that shift our focus to adopt strategies and tactics very different to those most commonly favoured by any of those available to other chapters. Not because they cannot attempt similar things but because they cannot do it effectively enough to make it worthwhile.

 

I guess the point could be argued that if Dark angels had all the same options as regular marines (storm raven, grav weapons etc...) then we might come to the same conclusion and just use those 'better' options but we don't and using what we have I see dark angels doing just as well as space marines on the table. We use different units and might struggle more frequently at times due to fewer 'star' choices that can just win you games but I don't see us losing more because of it.

[Prot]

DA Dentist,

 

That's a really good post. I agree with a lot of it. Although in a competitive arena, I don't think DA really do that well. The problem being that most of what you note is quite expensive to field. That's a very basic comparison but you won't find many Nova-con types finishing high with DA. That being said most people do see White Scars finishing very respectable in competitive environments, so while I do agree with what you're saying, I think the value of it is perhaps what hurts it most.

 

Again though I do agree with what you're saying and while no one takes DA seriously in top tournaments I was very tempted to take my DA to a tournament, but it doesn't look like it will happen. The reason I wanted to was because of the HQ's though. For a single chapter, I think DA have an incredible choice of fantastic HQ's. And it was my Azrael lists that really made this hit home.

 

Here I thought Azrael was the weakling of the HQ juggernauts. I never did lose with that list (I didn't want to say that for fear of jinxing myself. But that army is most likely done for me, but it stood out to many of my opponents as a list that took by them surprise.)

 

Sometimes it takes a conversation like this to really realize what you have. That's why I've enjoyed the topic even though it seems some don't like the idea, but I guess it's the way I work. I dissect things, and turn them inside and out. :)

 

I think DA, with some luck, could rank up there with any other Marine based army however, I think it's important to note that Marines overall are not the top contenders in the competitive arenas anyway which brings up a different topic of discussion.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think what hurts DA the most in tournament is not having dedicated tournament gamers that exploit it to full potential like they do to other Codex. People usually look in other directions when they want a tournament list and the most of the DA players that end up in a tournament setting are experienced but they are not the kind of players that squeezes everything out of a Codex and know the army and the other armies inside out.

I saythis because sometimes we see DA at those top tables consistently (and some of those people hang around here in DA forum) so it's not just a fluke.

[aura_enchanted]

I think what hurts DA the most in tournament is not having dedicated tournament gamers that exploit it to full potential like they do to other Codex. People usually look in other directions when they want a tournament list and the most of the DA players that end up in a tournament setting are experienced but they are not the kind of players that squeezes everything out of a Codex and know the army and the other armies inside out.

I saythis because sometimes we see DA at those top tables consistently (and some of those people hang around here in DA forum) so it's not just a fluke.

I think the reason those players don't take da to the table is because they go with what's easy. Nobody wants to work to make a good list they want to grab paint and assemble and roll faces. And you simply have more options to do it in other books. Why make ravenwing work when you can use white scars. Why take Greenwing if you can bring sentinels of terra, Klan raukkan, or any of a pile of generic marines that have more options in the book and more things that generically fit togeather. The sm generic book revolves are fitting generic pieces togeather to finish the puzzle. Da's rely on select key items to bring it togeather.

 

So what cab we take from this? The reason nobody takes DA codex seriously is because codex SM exists.