SvenONE Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 When I say re-create the list, I mean that in a way that keeps the core concepts of your list together. If you are in-your-face shooty, see if you can make a DA list you're confident replicates that concept, or if it's vehicle heavy, go that route. I believe that it's easier for C:SM to emulate something that the DA codex does, than DA try and emulate something C:SM does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Now we have to compare DA codex to the SW too cause they are getting better stuff than us... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 But it's not my list without the well known and feared squad of 10 Vanguard Vets all with a pair of Lightning Claws, Melta Bombs, and Jump Packs, joined by a Chapter Master with a jump pack, Artificer Armor, Melta Bomb, and a pair of Lightning Claws. That squad will absorb so much enemy fire and even if it's brought down to 2-3 guys and the Chapter Master, it can still take out at least 2 squads on it's own. However if I were to try to match my most common list... 1850 Point List HQ Company Master PFG, Melta Bombs, Digital Weapons, Pair of Lightning Claws Elites Company Vet Squad 9 Vets w/ Pair of Lightning Claws, Melta Bombs, Rhino Company Vet Squad 10 Vets w/ Combi-Melta, Drop Pod Venerable Dreadnought Extra Armor, Assault Cannon, Power Fist w/ Heavy Flamer Troops Tactical Squad Vet Sergeant w/ Melta Bomb, Melta Gun Tactical Squad Vet Sergeant w/ Melta Bomb, Flamer Scout Squad Vet Sergeant, Camo Cloaks, Sniper Rifles Fast Attack Nephilim Jetfighter That brings me to 1847 and is pretty close for what i usually bring with C:SM Main Differences: No jump packs for Assault Veterans so I threw them in a Rhino with the CM, one less guy but it still would be cheaper No special ammo on Drop Pod Veterans but cheaper Nephilim instead of Stormtalon, but the Stormtalon has yet to impress me at taking down other fliers anyway No 2+ on my CM but he has a PFG so that can make up for it I usually don't run a Scout squad, had to fill points Had to take Nephilim and Scout squad and some filler upgrades over Stormtalon and Storm Raven Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Stormraven is quite nice. That will be a difference.... I actually have had good success with the Stormtalon. Yes' it's a glass canon but priced appropriately and it can hover which is quite big. (I have jinked around at the end of games, and hovered for point claiming.) The missiles combined with twin Assault Canons are actually decent. You have to remember the PFG works for enemies too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Oh yeah so with the SW aspect, we apparently are going to be the only Astartes Codex without a Stormraven-esque transport. COME ON. Now they are just doing it on purpose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's an interesting perspective GreyCrow, I would encourage you to play a DA list with a Shroud of Heroes and Landspeeder Vengeance enough times and then report back to us if you still feel they are as good as you initially think they are . This would probably make you the first person on this board to field a Shroud of Heroes, let alone a Shroud of Heroes HQ and LSV in the same game. I would also challenge you to try and recreate some of your most successful RG lists into DA lists, I think then you'd start to see the cost issue this codex has. Well, I wouldn't try to recreate any Raven Guard list with the Dark Angels Codex, nor would I play a Raven Guard army with any other CT. The Chapter Tactics really emphasize towards including units because they perform better than with any other Chapter Tactics. The RG for example not only gives Scout to your non bulky units but also allow the Jump Infantry to use the Jump Pack both in the Assault and the Movement phase, and the two combine give very good tools to control the flow of the battle. In addition, that means that Jump Infantry gets automatic HoW even if they moved 12", and they get rerolls to wound with the HoW. The rerolls to wound is the biggest boon imho, because they are automatic hits and better secure wounds. It's really easy to get 4 to 6 wounds prior to any combat and that makes Assault Marines worthwhile while they aren't really that good with other CTs ;) I wasn't trying to diminish any point made prior by any one on the thread, just inputting the perspective from someone with a fresh read of the Codex and no habit of playing ! :) If I was playing with the DA Codex, I would likely not try to emulate anything C:SM can do, but rather play to the strength of the Dark Angels and the units that I like. Probably having lots of Deathwing Terminators because I feel they are super awesome ! Azrael as well, because his rules and giving his 4+ invulnerable on the squads he's in are very awesome in my humble opinion. For example, a 1850 points list that I've written very (and I really emphasize on the word) quickly and that I would be enthusiastic to play with : Azrael - 215 points Command Squad - Standard of Fortitude, Drop Pod - 220 points 10 DW Terminators - Cyclone ML, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Lightning Claws, Sergeant with Power Sword, 5 regular Terminators - 490 points 5 DW Terminators - Cyclone ML, Chainfist, Sergeant with Power Sword, 2 regular Terminators - 250 points 7 Ravenwing Bikes - 2 Meltas, Sergeant with Power Sword, Attack bike with Heavy Bolter, 3 regular Bikes - 241 points 10 Tactical Marines - Multi Melta, Plasma gun, Sergeant with combi-flamer, Drop Pod - 210 points 9 Tactical Marines - Melta, Veteran Sergeant with Plasma Pistol & Power Axe, Drop Pod - 211 points Azrael will go in the Pod with the Tactical Squad. What I like in this list is that everything has got "Objective Secured", I can make a very brutal first turn or I can delay the wrath and position elsewhere. Standard of Fortitude is there to help save a few Marines. The Attack Squadron is perhaps the weakest link of the army along with the Command Squad, and if the Standard doesn't work, I'll remove it for another Attack Squadron for more mobility. Or I could switch for the Standard of Devastation, though it would only benefit 3 units and 21 boltguns. You can't do a list like that in the Codex Space Marines, and that gives complete control over where the battlefield is and what unit you want to kill. The value of this list doesn't measure in staying power or firepower, but more flexibility, the ability to do the most efficient Null Deployment of any Space Marine army (because I can choose to drop only 15 Marines on the board in Turn 1, or drop up to 35). It can control the reserves that come in on Turn 2 thanks to Deathwing Assault and you have a fast Outflanking unit and another pod coming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 You raise valid points GreyCrow; our beloved codex does have many good options and used optimally they can do really well, I just love beating armies like Tau and have to work really hard tactically to do so. I must however point out that the good abilities we have are nearly always unbalanced by a poorly implemented penalty and if not then they are overcosted. You mentioned earlier that our termies are only 5 points more than C:SMs and our bikes are only 6, when that is multiplied over a couple of units it quickly adds up and gives C:SM a free unit in the same sized game. Our special rules seldom give us enough in return to justify that cost. Especially when you face armies that don't care as much about the objectives until they have killed you dead, attrition is bad enough for elite armies without the extra tax we pay for not much extra. One of the main reasons Grey Hunters are considered the best troops choice for any PA army is not because they remember to put a combat knife in a sheath on their belts it's because they don't have to pay extra to do so and don't have any real negative balancer (Eg no heavy but two special weapons or no Sgt but how often to we pay to make our worth it?). We have nearly always had that balancer and that is what hurts us at competition time, during fun games it's just another challenge to overcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I agree with you Stobz, especially on having to work really hard tactically to win. This is true for all the Space Marines armies and perhaps more the Dark Angels than others given the extra cost, but Marines armies are easy to learn, but difficult to master. When you mention Tau, it takes only a few minutes to see that the Fire Warriors are very geared towards anti-infantry and they should be played like that. Your point about attrition in PA armies is very true too and the increased cost of special units makes them harder to play. Another thing you mentionned that rings true is the higher killing power of non Marines armies. Part of the very high cost of a Marine is their survivability compared to other armies, and as the Marines are hard to kill, we maximize the return on point by making them harder to kill. But for that, we have to play through all the 5 turns of the game, even if that means crippling our own damage capabilities in the first three. Playing with cover, line of sight to expose weakness in the enemy lines and exploiting it to disrupt their ability without ourselves be negated. Then, taking advantage of that to make a move. One mistake I've seen many players do in my LGS or club is that they aim for a killing blow in Turn 1 or Turn 2, or go to park their Troops in the objectives right in Turn 1. Another mistake I've seen often is to make a battle plan with a list and tailoring that list for the battle plan, then applying this battleplan in every battle. Non Marine armies can do that better than we do. A Tau gunline will always work better than a Space Marine gunline. An Ork Assault will work better than a Marines assault. I think the teachings of Roboute Guilliman to work very effectively on the battlefield, in that having an army that can perform according to multiple operational scenarios works best in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3751951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I totally agree with your tactical comments, we definitely pay to be able to do things in each phase instead of just dominating one. I do not agree with your comment on the survivability of marines, once many editions ago that was true but now everybody spams cheap AP2&3 stuff and we get taken off the table in handfuls (like you'd expect from Guard) but we cost too much to sustain those losses in most games. I love our little green/bone/black toys but I just think the normal C:SM PA/TDA tax is too high for the current environment and we with C:DA get taxed just that extra bit too far. That's all the comparison problem I see. Ho Hum, all is still good. I must go now and organise a chance to kill foul xenos this weekend Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Paying extra to be flexible is part of what drew me to power armor. I first played (and still play) Tau. I started in 5th and Tau were really fun because they were a challenge to play and even though I always lost because my opponent had several years experience on me and I had no idea what I was doing, I still found ways to make it fun, like what can my Hammerhead 1 shot kill the first time shooting at it (the list is Landraider, Ork Battlewagon? The big one, Monolith, another Land Raider (I also only keep track of the big things I do it with lol)) once 6th edition came Tau came out I was excited because hell yeah we're a powerful army now. And then I started dominating the shooting phase and that was about it and no matter how I moved my list around, I couldn't make it a non instant win button using the models I have (I hate the auxiliaries). Tau became boring so I started Raven Guard and quickly moved into 30k which let's my Tactical Squads have so much more flexibility and all of the options in 30k just make army building more important along with using your flexibility correctly (so far I'm 4/2/0 with my 30k and the two games I lost were at 500 points which is pretty damn small for 30k The Dark Angels make the importance of flexibility greater with their higher cost but also have more options for flexibility, especially with Azrael. Making both Terminators and Bikes Objective Secured is huge. The extra cost put on Dark Angels means you sure won't win a war of attrition, but you have more flexibility using Objective Secured Terminators and/or Bikes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultra Magnus Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I am thankful to Prot for kicking this thread off (as well as several others) as it has uncovered a great deal of passion and desire within the community to be able to field Dark Angels in a competitive setting. Not WAAC cheese listing but a desire to be able to field lists that are characteristic of our codex's style and flavor that has a reasonable chance of beating a competing list similarly designed.I think it would be great if we used the collective wisdom of this forum to work towards "crowd sourcing" out some competitive combos and lists with our ability to play test across the community for continuous feedback and experimentation. A cool project would be to undertake to develop competitive lists (say 1850 points) for pure Ravenwing, pure Deathwing, Dual Wing, Dark Angels combined arms, and + Allies. It seems for a while things around here have focused on the painting side of the hobby but it would be nice to prove a few people wrong on the table top as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Like Komrk said, Objective Secured on Terminators and Bikes is pretty awesome. One problem with that might be that it is worthless in "Purge the Alien" missions unfortunately. In which case, I think a Dark Angel army should be designed to be able to be placed together and shot together at the same unit. Methodically wipe it out and move to the next one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 I agree Magnus. I wish people played a little more, rather than just... theorized. I personally have gone through the pains of sorting through the negativity, and the reality of the codex by playing it out. Some surprises were in there for me as well. Playing a 'pure' wing in 7th is a hard thing to do. Especially with the advent of Maelstrom which forces you to react very quickly but still have the stamina to make a stand, or the offensive punch to actually over run something. Maybe if you're playing one wing for success it would have to be greenwing, in which case I'd definitely be tempted to just play the Space Marines codex. Since my greatest successes in 7th have come from actually mixing wings, I don't think I could go back to a pure Ravenwing (in my case) or a pure Deathwing (I dabbled with unsuccessfully in 6th). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My experiment had me fire up a Imperial Fists army because I like to put my money where my mouth is. * If you don't believe me, here is my first test fig comparing my IF to my DA!:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293957-imp-fist-test-figure-and-lysander-epic-kill/ Anyway I have a few games in now and my goal was to take all the stuff I envy (granted some of it could be min-maxed better) and get a good feel for how awesome life would be on the 'other side'. For the sake of brevity, let me try to sum this up in point form: + Flyers: +++ Huge. They did not disappoint. The units are priced appropriately and function accordingly. Take a tankish, hard to hit (almost landraider-esque) flyer, or a glass canon (cheap and flexible too) and I'm sad to report IMO that they sadly but utterly put the Nephilim to shame. (BUT I still believe the Nephilim is one good FAQ away from being very usable.) + Combat Tactics: + Medum. Obviously I didn't use them all. Some are more potent than others but aside from empowering 'Troops', there's nothing amazing there. Strong? Perhaps in certain situations, but it's not what I thought it would be (so far). + Anti-flyer: - Meh. I can't even fit any of that stuff in my lists so far. Besides I actually *like* playing DA behind an Aegis/Bastion/Firestorm Redoubt. Good enough for me. + Grav stuff ++ Not bad, but highly situational. Best used on units with Relentless or really the default of Plasma combo's and Melta combo's (just like DA would use) is still the norm. That being said.... + Centurions + Good, but not great. Here's where context means everything. At 250 pts? They better do something for you with 3 guys that can't deepstrike, and have NO invuln.... I have to admit these are great when they're great, but poopy when they're poopy. This unit can be a superstar or a punk. (Grav/bolter nipples setup) + Thunderfire +++ Excellent. Puts the Whirlwind to shame. Priced right, very survivable, able to fill a bit of multi role. + Ironclad +++ This is a big one for me. I like drop pod armies, and this would be HUGE for DA. There's just something about AV12 vs AV13 that seems huge. For the points it just plain works and I'd take it every day over our basic dread. Please keep in mind that my games have been pretty new with the codex so I haven't fully fleshed out what I'm doing and some of my choices appear somewhat random due to the fact I'm testing it all out. Overall the experience so far has reinforced my original thoughts: Some of our stuff is simply over priced (this happens a lot to early codexes: over pricing/underpricing). But the overall codex definitely works (comparing to other marines). We have some real duds that need a tweak really bad. (I don't know why they won't go back to these units and just tweak them) And on the other end of the spectrum we have some stuff that is still very desirable to me: Deathwing Assault / HQ's / Black Knights / PFG and some minor stuff as well that does make a difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yeah, sons of Lions have always gotten short end of the stick... And we're not Space Puppies, we don't chace sticks... *sighs* I hope we could get as chapter tactics: Plasma Mastery: Re-roll 1's on plasma weapons. Oh, well, its that time of the year: Time to boost my 1st Company. After all we still got better terminators over the Codex: Vanilla. DA is the Clockwork Codex for power armors. You can't just diddly-daddly and hope for the best. You have to know what you units do and how they relate each others and then use it accordingly. Its very much like.... playing with dirty xenos called Eldars. :P. If you can play well with DA, you can play well with any 3+ Army (Evil Mehreens are tad different though) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Haha, hey Prot mate, here is a synopsis of your points: They have some stuff that puts us to shame and we have some desirable stuff that is a bit overpriced. Now, how do we get GW to address it? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3752823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I totally agree with Prot being a CF player too... The main problem about DA codex is that evrything that is not the bones of the army (the greenwing who is priced accordingly to the C:SM) is overpriced... Some stuff is ugly too (flyers, Blade of Caliban, LSV) but the biggest issue is that we pay too much for what we get... Seriously is the teleport homer on RW bikes Worth 6 points per model? or the DWA Worth 4 points per model, and so on... Being an elitary army where you field smaller model number the abilities should cost less and not more cause this ability will effect less models giving my army a smaller advantage... The opposite on a huge army like AM where a single ability of a IC/unit can affect a platoon of 50 models and thus should cost more... When GW will understand this simple mechanic we will be playing WH40K 10th edition published by Hasbro (or any othe firm will buy GW after they go bankrupt)...:D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293781-comparing-the-dark-angels-to-the-codex-astartes/page/3/#findComment-3753004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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