D- weapon rolls

[Ulrock]

So for the the d weapon melee chart vs a non vehicle, if I score 1 hit and roll a 2-5 does the opponent get his save before the D3 wounds or do I roll the d3 wounds and then he makes his saves for those?

[CoffeeGrunt]

The opponent makes a Save against the Wound, then if he fails it, that model alone loses D3 Wounds.

[Axagoras]

um... i read it the other way. it says a model his is auto wounded and loses d3 wounds. so you take d3 saves

[Seahawk]

It's a single hit that causes multiple wounds. You allocate all wounds to that model. That model then makes as many saves as he has wounds allocated to him. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Huh, that's actually better in that interpretation.

[Dam13n]

The rules support it as well.  It turns "a(n automatic) wound" into "D3 wounds"

 

it doesn't state that it turns "an unsaved wound" into "D3 unsaved wounds"

 

So that implies the multiplication occurs before saves are attempted.

[Sophiearcher]

i would go with multiplying after a save as the D rule says you LOSE d3 instead of 1 and you cant Lose 1 wound unless you failed 1 save.

 

Also that would mean having to pass d3 saves to not get instant deathed by the str 10 on non eternal warrior characters.

 

For me its the word lose that swayed me.

 

you cant lose one wound if you didnt fail one save

 and D weapon says lose D3 instead of one

 

I hope that helped.

 

But it was ambiguous and me and some friends were arguing and discussing each side and this is what we all eventuly agreed on.

[Valkyrion]

I was always under the impression that D3 came afterwards. Maybe it's a throwback from 2nd, I dunno. I'd never considered the alternative.

[Morticon]

Ya, not really an "interpretation" either.  Just incorrect reading/understanding.   (EDIT:  Much like my incorrect/incomplete reading that Jacinda later points out!! :blush: Consider my standpoint reversed!) 

 

"If a weapon has a D instead of a Strength value in its profile, it is a Destroyer weapon. To

resolve a Destroyer weapon’s attack, roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. If the

attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration." 

 

 

Example of result:

 

 

Non-vehicle - Seriously Wounded: The model suffers a hit that wounds

automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1.

 

 

From armour saves:

 

"If a model has an Armour Save characteristic of 6+ or better on its

profile, it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the Wound. This is

called an armour saving throw, or armour save, for short."

 

 

That sequence of events puts the wounds on before the saves.  So, its definitely not one save and then result, its result and then saves. 

[Seahawk]

Bingo, which is why it's D3 saves, instead of one and then D3 wounds.

[Teetengee]

I am still not quite sure on this, as if I replace wound with d3 wounds as instructed I get the following rule
"it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the [d3 wounds]."

This would seem to suggest that the d3 wounds are rolled before saves are taken but only one save is rolled to prevent them.

The main reasoning behind this is that the armour saving roll is still singular and the number of wounds lost to a failed save is all that is changed, rather than the number of wounds caused by the attack.

[Axagoras]

if it says you suffer d3 wounds you have to make d3 saves... you suffer wounds then save against them

[Brother Casman]

Huh, I've been reading that differently, it seems. I had always interpreted it as being roll 1 save: if you pass, nothing happens; if you fail, your wound is multiplied into d3 wounds.

 

I seem to remember that being how multiple wounds are handled in WHFB, so perhaps I've been confusing the two games again...

[Seahawk]

WFB: 1 wound, 1 save, fail save take D[x] wounds

 

40k: 1 wound = D3 wounds, D3 saves, fail D3 saves take D3 wounds

 

Every weapon is dependent though. They will say whether it's before or after saves, such as the Mindstealer Sword. 

 

 

Now, the real question I just realized: do you roll once for all models under the template, or once for each model, or do you affect just one model? Read carefully and see the issue...

[Axagoras]

i would say roll for each, since i dont think it changes how you have to roll to wound each model under it

[DarkProdigy]

I believe it is one save because otherwise there would be no reason for then to word it as "a hit". If it worked liked everything else you would simply say the model suffers d3 hits resolved at D (str 10, no saves on 6 roll).

 

The way it is worded is quite different from weapons that would normally cause more wounds (they cause multiple hits as well), and there is literally no reason I can think of for why that would be the case unless it was meant to only be one save.

 

There is precedent for this as well, a model hitting a gargantuan creature with instant death rule, would hit it, wound it, and the creature gets one save (if applicable), and loses d3 wounds if it fails. Same would apply to shooting a super heavy vehicle and getting an explodes result.

 

The way I see it is you only hit the vehicle/creature/hapless victim one time, if they are allowed a save they get it and walk away if they pass. If they fail they are pasted.

[Venemox]

After putting it together the way Morticon laid it out, I have to agree with d3 wonds, each gets its own save.  Espcially given that:

 

 

Multiple Wounds/Hull Points inflicted by a Destroyer hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost).

 

Which would be relevant in  the Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties subphase of a shooting attack, but only prior to rolling saves.

[Captain Coolpants]

Exact copy and paste from the rulebook for D weapons.

 

"Non-vehicle - Seriously Wounded: The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1"

 

Direct copy and paste from the assassins data slate for vindicare.

 

"Turbo-penetrator: Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10. Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflicts D3 Wounds, rather than just 1"

 

The vindicare assassins ammo says that it 'inflicts' D3 Wounds, meaning that you make D3 saves.

 

But

 

the D weapons table says that it 'causes' D3 Wounds, so you make 1 save, and if you fail you lose D3 Wounds.

 

I could very well just be interpretating it wrong, because I'm not even sure if there is any discernable difference between "inflicts" and "causes". They could mean the same for all I know or they could mean the opposite to what I just purposed lol.

 

 

In my opinion it would make more sense for the D weapons to auto wound D3 times with D3 saves. Because before D weapons were straight up instant death.

[Morollan]

I don't really see any difference, in this context, between 'cause' and 'inflict'. Indeed, if we look up 'inflict' in the dictionary it says 'cause (something unpleasant or painful) to be suffered by someone or something'. I think it would be sensible to treat them both in the same way.

[Jacinda]

I don’t want to start an argument (or join one), I only want to say how we agreed on it locally.

 

This came up over the weekend not only with D weapons. Vindacare assassins also have a weapon that causes multiple wounds per hit. While it is obvious that all the wounds apply to a single model we could not see any compelling reason to go with one save or multiples.

 

We looked at how it would change in game results based on the different methods of resolving multi-wound weapons. If the target is a multi-wound model, whether you take 1 save or multiple saves does not matter because over time our target will average the same number of unsaved wounds per hit. Against single wound models it matters. Taking multiple saves greatly reduces the target’s chance of survival.

 

In my opinion, 1 hit is 1 wound. When allocated, it becomes d3 wounds each of which needs to be saved against separately. The rules say it becomes multiple wounds, not multiple unsaved wounds. I was out voted and for consistency’s sake we went with the fantasy rules of 1 hit, 1 wound, 1 save, multiple unsaved wounds. I can live with this “house-rule” because it does fall in my favor with the global 6++ save my army gets.

[Morticon]

You dont allocate hits.  You allocate wounds.

[Jacinda]

Right.

One hit

One wound (automatic)

When that one wound is allocated, the model looses d3 wounds instead of one.

No one is allocating hits. 

 

Forgive me if I did not make myself clear.

 

 

 

Odd that you would bump this actually since after a discussion last night with my room mate I have changed my mind about how it is supposed to work.

 

As the rule states, the hit "wounds automatically and causes [the model] to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1."  This part replaces the standard rule for taking wounds given earlier in The Rules which says "The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one.  It it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1."  According the Destroyer rule, that reduction by 1 is instead a reduction by D3.  And it comes after any allowed saves are made.

[Morticon]

After reading the:

 

"Multiple Wounds/Hull Points inflicted by a Destroyer hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost)" - i'm thrown into disarray.  It creates a caveat thats different/above/beyond from the regular method - that the other rules, alone, do not do.  

 

I was thinking about this in terms of Lo,S. 

[Morticon]

Jacinda, good find on that wording.  

 

Now convinced. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Comes after any saves are made?

 

So it is 1 save, and if that save is failed, it suffers D3 Wounds?