Horus Heresy Weekender - Big Review (Resurrected)

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I managed to recover about half of my previous report of the Horus Weekender and rewrite the rest from memory so here, by popular (well at least three people asked for it, is that enough?) demand, it is.

There is already an extensive Weekender Thread but it seems to be very focused on pictures of Forgeworld minis and news about new gaming material. It is also very fragmented having developed over the course of the weekend and being filled with requests for information from people who weren't there. After floating the idea in that thread and getting positive feedback my aim in this thread is to present a single post article that provides a review of the weekend as a whole now that the dust has settled, with a focus on the Black Library aspects and author discussions in particular.

First off, I'd like to thank all of the people who made it possible but in particular our frequent visitor/poster on B&C A D-B who was the author who probably had to endure me to the greatest extent since I was in a small group discussion with him (more on that and Master of Mankind later).

I apologise now to everyone I am about to unintentionally misquote. I would also like to point out that the Black Library authors are a collection of individuals with varying opinions. In response to my previous version some people pointed out contradictions or said, "If that's how they see it why isn't that how they write it?". Just because Author A says, "I feel that Legion X will respond in way Y" doesn't mean Author B will agree and write it that way.

The Night Before

I arrived on Friday night to see ForgeWorld goodies being brought in by the van load but they wouldn't sell them to us yet! As I was only a short distance away I decided to visit Warhammer World. It's been a long time since I've been there. To illustrate just how long it has been, last time I was there I filled out a Forgeworld suggestion form for, "What product would you like to see us make?" and I put, "Older marks of power armour or Heresy era models."

I recommend to anyone attending an event at The Belfry that they pop down to Warhammer World whilst they are so close. I then spent the evening getting thrashed by an old gaming buddy.

Forgeworld Stand - I predict a riot

The ticket stated that the event began at 9am. At 8.20am I found the sales stand open for business and thronged with gamers. After my last Games Day experience where the book I wanted to buy sold out before I'd even managed to get into the building I dived right in. By 8.30 I had my items in hand and at 9.35 I finally got someone to take my money!

Most customers were fairly good natured but it didn't bode well. The main issue seemed to be that they had just four tills and credit card payments were taking ages - at one point I didn't move a single step for ten minutes. I would suggest to FW that they could do with a bit more organisation with the queue and perhaps a cash only till. Customers could help too by not panic buying - my main concern was the event only anthology and it turned out that there were 2,000 copies for an event with just 350 tickets so there were actually ample copies available all weekend.

Event Introduction

Not much to say except that Tony Cottrell was our good natured host and did an outstanding job throughout the weekend, something for which I made a point of thanking him as I left on Sunday afternoon.

The Path of Treachery

An interesting seminar summarising the timeline so far and looking at where it is going. There were a lot of boxes marked XXX but it's clear from the size and shape that FW/BL have big plans for the Heresy. They are keen to challenge the notion that the Heresy timeline is basically Isstvan III -> Isstvan V - > Siege of Terra with a couple of extras like Calth, Prospero and Signus Prime dotted around. The idea is that these key events from the earliest background represent the details that are remembered by the people of the Imperium long after the Heresy but are by no means a complete account.

The timeline is roughly triangular. It starts with the events on Davin. From there it diverges as more and more factions are drawn in. Following Isstvan Horus quickly loses control of his fellow traitor Primarchs and the war spills out across the Imperium. Imperium Secundus/Unremembered Empire is just one example of the actions that will occur on both sides during the years between Isstvan and the Siege of Terra. Many will come to naught and factions will die. Finally, everything will begin to converge again as each side tries to rally for some kind of decisive action and it will all culminate with the survivors converging at the Siege of Terra, back at The Palace where it all began.

Sedition's Gate

No spoilers here. If people want more details of the stories let me know.

Rob Sanders explores what happens when the Alpha Legion find themselves pitted against a foe as ruthless and calculating as themselves - the Mechanicum.

Nick Kyme's story is called "Artefacts" and involves Vulkan. I'm sure anyone who has heard of Vulkan He'Stan can join the dots.

Guy Haley's contribution touches on a topic I raised here recently - second founding chapter masters. Later in the weekend I learned that Lucretius Corvo is based on Guy Haley's wife! More on that story later.

Chris Wraight continues from Scars with his story of "the last Thousand Son".

David Annandale gives us an insight into the misunderstood and maligned peaceful agrarian society of Davin. (His sarcasm, not mine.)

Just after the seminar I made an incredible [censored] of myself whilst talking to Chris Wraight. We'd been talking about the Scars culture whilst my copy of Brotherhood of the Storm sat in front of him. I was so engrossed in what he was saying that I almost forgot about the book itself. The conversation wrapped up like this:

"As I say I really, really enjoyed this book and it's been great to have a chance to speak to you in person. Thank you."

"No problem, my pleasure. So who's it for?"

This question throws me, most authors have just literally put their signature and nothing more.

"Oh, err..." I say, sounding like a fool.

"Owen?" asks Chris as his pen moves to the page.

"No! No! My name's Peter," I blurt in a panic.

"Oh, okay." says Chris looking a bit bemused by this lunatic who can't even decide his own name.

(facepalm)

Signing and the non-Seminar rooms

I was tempted by Extermination and The Art of Heresy but I'd worked out my signing schedule and I wanted to check out what else was going on. Perhaps someone else would be kind enough to fill in the gaps.

Number one target for me for the book signing sessions was A D-B. Due to his involvement in this forum he was the one I was most keen to meet in person. I had anticipated a BIG queue for him at his signing sessions so I got there fifteen minutes before it started and twenty five minutes before the man himself - he had to turn up fashionably late.

He's a big presence in real life. I'm used to seeing him as a postage stamp sized avatar of a face peeking out from under a beanie hat in the corner of my computer screen and I wasn't really prepared for his physical presence. Nonetheless I think he was actually more intimidated by me than I by him. I didn't want to be "that guy" who talks endlessly to an author as if the author is there solely to speak with him, apparently oblivious to the mass of people standing in line behind them. Yes if you're at an event like that you've paid for your ticket so you may feel that you're entitled to a fair shot at all of the activities but so is everyone else. It's the same principal as why I let cars out in front of me at junctions - if we all do our bit then the whole system flows better for everyone So it is that by the time Aaron looks at me and indicates he is ready to begin I am like a coiled spring ready for action and promptly launch myself forward.

"Hi! I just finished Betrayer last week," I announce passionately. Aaron's eyes widen with a touch of alarm and he recoils slightly, "I absolutely loved it."

Aaron visibly relaxes, puts a hand to his chest and lets out a sigh of relief.

As per his request I used my forum name and he had the decency to say, "I know you!" without making it sound mocking. I was delighted to discover that he had seen my comment about how his avatar on this forum always looks to me like a strange red skinned creature with little round glasses peering at a mobile phone. He said he couldn't see it himself but wanted to. Therefore I present a doctored version and a small size original. Hopefully at least one other person will see what I mean.

I spoke with John French. Again I was conscious of the massive queue of people behind me but John's such a nice guy I couldn't help being awhile. As I was about to move along and give someone else a turn I made a casual comment about The Crimson Fist probably being enough to make up my mind between Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists, now I just needed to learn to paint yellow. "Oh it's really not as hard as people make out. For mine..."responded John and proceeded to share his painting experiences with his Fists. (Reading that back it sounds like he pummelled me until I'd got it but it really wasn't like that).

I had a great chat with Guy Haley. He's the self-confessed new boy in the Heresy but a long time White Dwarf/GW man so we had a great chat about a bunch of stuff from the "old days". Plus, earlier in the day Laurie had introduced him as, "The most northern man in Black Library" so as we're both Yorkshiremen we got to discussing the sort of things Yorkshire folk discuss (flat caps, pies, southerners, etc.). At this point Aaron and Chris (Wraight) were still wading through hordes of fans whilst Guy's queue had dwindled to just me so I finally relaxed whilst talking to an author.

Forgeworld - New Models Hanging out with the Black Library crew

This was a wonderful example of a dark cloud with a silver lining. I really wanted to go to Forgeworld - New Models but was deep in conversation with Dominik in the art room and so by the time I got to the seminar room they'd closed the doors as the room was full to capacity. Somewhat dejected I mooched around for five minutes and then spotted a spare chair between Guy Haley and John French near the bar. I somewhat nervously asked if they would mind if I sat there. Both of them were incredibly friendly and over the next hour we chatted about Horus Heresy, Chaos in the Old World, Space Hulk (which Guy Haley was playing on his iPad), Guy's time at White Dwarf and much more. At one point John French excused himself to get a drink from the bar - John, if you'd mentioned you were thirsty it would have been my pleasure to get a round in as thanks for giving us Alexis Pollux and making me actually like Sigismund.

Nick Kyme, Laurie Goulding and Chris Wraight were amongst the people that dropped in to sit at our table over the course of the next hour. What was really good was that after about twenty minutes of chat with various people the conversation just drifted on and it was as if I'd faded into invisibility. I shan't embarrass anyone by repeating other people's conversations but it was a fascinating privilege to be like a fly on the wall in a BL meeting. At one point Chris Wraight was obviously discussing ideas for his next book with Laurie Goulding but he was leaning in and speaking softly and I couldn't properly make out what was being said without blatantly staring at his lips or leaning in myself so we'll just have to wait for the book to come out.

Meet The Creators

Probably my favourite bit of the weekend. Small group chats with the creators. I was with A D-B for the session which lasted about an hour. Sorry, Aaron, I promise I'll go bug Chris "The Doctor" Wraight next time.

I know that in response to my original thread one of my fellow forum members was in that group but I'm afraid I can't remember who. Luckily when I referenced his comment in my previous thread I referred to him as "a gentleman".

I'll confess there was some embarrassing fanboyism from me as I'd just read Betrayer and Aurellian.

Moving on from that to what you lot want to know about - Master of Mankind

Firstly, to the great relief of many people including me - we are NOT going inside the Emperor's head. He needs to retain a bit of mystique.

What Aaron wants to do is to re-imbue the Emperor with wonder. We've seen a lot from the perspective of the Traitors and as has been discussed a fair bit online, it's easy to conclude that the Emperor was a bit of a blind, arrogant and demanding tyrant (my view, not his) and not really a character we can get behind. We get all those threads about, "What if The Emperor had just explained the Warp to Magnus instead of denying it to him?" "What if he'd let Angron finish his slave rebellion?" "Couldn't he have handled Lorgar better?" The aim here is to give an alternative view.

To that end we shall see The Emperor from the perspectives of lots of levels in Imperial society including (potentially):

Malcador

A Primarch

A Custodian

Space Marines

Ordinary humans

A Servitor - the Emperor is so incredible that even a servitor normally oblivious to all except it's designated function feels a sense of awe when the Emperor passes nearby.

There is also a nod to his role as the Omnissiah - when The Emperor passes a Land Raider its machine spirit feels a surge of energy and its guns rise. Aaron's illustration of this prompted another member of the group to say, "He gives a tank a stiffie?!" which was amusing but also slightly tainted the concept forever.

One of the central characters will be a Blood Angel - ADB really wanted to write a Blood Angels story but obviously as a shared universe sometimes other authors have already established a stake in a particular character or event so to date he hasn't had the opportunity.

There will also be a Space Wolves pack known as the Howl of the Hearthworld.

I asked if we would see not just the deaths of characters but more of the death of ideas, e.g. in Mechanicum we saw how the Imperium didn't have to have the blind ignorant dogmatic approach to technology. There were people who actually understood the technology and could advance it but the Heresy ended that. The answer was absolutely yes, Aaron wants to take us along a story arc from the Webway being the Emperor's greatest dream to his dream being shattered and him basically imprisoning himself on his throne to contain the damage from his broken dream.

I asked about the Jaq Draco - Inquisition War books and was pleased to find that A D-B loves them. We agreed that they are very different from modern 40k fiction but some great concepts like the fragmented gestalt consciousness of the Emperor. Did the Emperor put a bit of himself inside each of his sons?

General musings:

The Primarchs are always talked about as The Emperor's sons but did he really want sons or did he want generals? This fits with my own feelings that whilst Horus had known his "father" almost his whole life, those two centuries were just a blink of an eye to The Emperor who is tens of thousands of years old.

There is not just the webway war but also the war between Mars and Terra. The Imperial Fists are not just sitting on their hands waiting for Horus, they are battling fiercely against traitors already in the Sol system including the Mechanicum. Terra and Mars are lashing one another with apocalyptic weapons.

Perpetuals - my impression was that these are very much Dan Abnett's baby. A D-B wasn't saying they were bad, they've added an interesting new dimension to the lore, but the implications of a significant (re-)introduction like that can complicate other works. I agree that it is a balancing act. The Perpetuals are potentially interesting but we don't want the Heresy reduced to being a puppet show played out by the Cabal via their agents. It was pointed out that Vulkan's Perpetual nature implies that the Emperor must be a Perpetual. A D-B put this firmly in the, "We don't know." category. He wasn't saying the Emperor isn't because in a sense he clearly is perpetual but The Emperor is The Emperor. He's unique. You can't necessarily categorise him as "A Perpetual".

A D-B has great ideas about the nature of Chaos that are too nuanced for me to explain properly here but I shall try to give a taste. His analogy is that Chaos isn't a disease. You don't bump into a chaos worshipper, "catch chaos" and promptly sprout a tentacle for an arm and become evil. The potential rewards have to justify the temptation and the risk, at least in the minds of the characters who fall. It does seem to corrupt but characters don't necessarily know that until it is too late. Nobody knowingly becomes evil, they do what they think is right, or at least okay, and step by step they go down a path from which they cannot turn back.

A similar observation was made about the traitors. A D-B cited John French's audio short "Warmaster". If you haven't heard it I thoroughly recommend it. It's essentially Horus alone in his throne room aboard the Vengeful Spirit delivering about an eight minute soliloquy on the way events have played out. He considers some of those who stand/stood against him whom he had hoped to turn to his cause such as Ferrus, The Lion and Guilliman then compares them with those who have joined him. He laments that he is the "Master of Broken Monsters". Aaron said what a fantastic line it was that brilliantly showed Horus's view at that point in the story but he says it's important to keep the balance and not always view them like that. We don't want to slip into a good guys/bad guys mentality. The story is so much better when the villains are arguably flawed heroes.

What I meant to ask but didn't was whether in Aurellian the Avatar was intended in part as a mocking metaphor for the future of the Imperium.

Dinner

The only bad part of the weekend. The dinner was an absolute disgrace. They were advertising a £10 all you can eat buffet. As there was plenty of time I decided rather than fight in the initial rush I would come back a bit later. I turned up about half an hour after the dinner buffet opened and joined a queue of about six people. We paid our money and went in to find that they had run out of food. Virtually every serving container was empty, those that weren't had little more than the last dregs - the meat dishes were little more than gravy. I felt sorry for the serving staff who were clearly powerless to address the situation. We were assured that more food was on its way but after half an hour in which I'd only managed to scrounge one tortilla and fill it with some rice and two bite size pieces of chicken I joined the queue of people asking for their money back. What I thought was ludicrous was that even fifteen minutes after I had arrived as people were demanding refunds the hotel staff at the door will still taking money off unsuspecting new arrivals and directing them to an empty buffet. A waitress did try to reassure us that they had more food on its way. The food she listed was completely different from the menu and the expected serving time was twenty minutes into the evening entertainment so clearly they had been reduced to grabbing whatever they could from the freezer. One member of staff said to me, "Well we did cater for 200 people but we obviously underestimated how much people would eat." To my knowledge the event had 350 tickets so that would explain the shortage. I think that they must have based it on the number of people staying overnight at The Belfry rather than the number attending. Given that the day's events weren't yet over and The Belfry is an out of town location this is surprising. Fortunately for me I had a stash of emergency supplies in the car - hopefully nobody went completely hungry overnight.

Evening Entertainment

Started with Tony Cottrell apologising profusely for the dinner situation and assuring us that it had been raised as an issue with the hotel and they'd make sure it wouldn't happen again.

A Horus Heresy themed pub quiz. I was disappointed that the authors weren't forced to form a team and compete to show just how well (or not) they actually remembered what they'd written! As the only person with the forethought to bring a pen I was designated writer of answers despite my attempts to pass that off onto someone else. I think overall we placed something like fifth out of twelve teams with a respectable score but nowhere close to the near perfect score of the winning team. Our team name was intended purely to torment Laurie Goulding. When it came to scores he declared, "Ugh, it makes me physically sick to say this one...Tarvitz Lives!" There were some very cheesy Heresy puns but I'm afraid I can't remember them now. The tie-breaker was to draw a dinosaur trying to give David Annandale a Robin Hood outfit as a souvenir of his visit to Nottingham. The results were impressive and/or obscene. One team had brought colouring crayons to the quiz!

The "unique modelling contest" wasn't the hoped for opportunity to get free FW bits. It was instead a contest involving a pack of plasticene and a bag of random Lego bricks. My pen lid made a surprisingly good makeshift sculpting tool and I was impressed with my team mates efforts and ingenuity. It turns out that a ridged Lego brick makes a decent cable mould.

There was an astonishing Perturabo - how they managed to get a bag with so many yellow, black and grey bits I don't know; it must have been Tzeentch's work. Hopefully there are pics somewhere. I think A D-B was one of the judges, he certainly spent a fair bit of time scrutinising the submissions and his face was a picture when it came to some of the entries. This is a family friendly forum so let's just say that there were some anatomically ambitious devotees of Slaanesh.

Conquest

If any of the sessions was a let down it was this one but that's partly personal preference. After various speculation - Calth with Ultras versus Word Bearers; a dual Blood Angels and Dark Angels book I was eager to find out which legions would be featured. The answer as you probably all know by now is...none. It's a book focusing on Imperial Army and Mechanicus. The idea is to flesh out the Mechanicus list and introduce Imperial Army on a scale on which means that you can field them as a viable force in their own right rather than just an add-on to Legion armies. There were some interesting concept models for infantry and vehicles. They looked nice but personally I can't imagine doing a full army of them. I think the price would force me to proxy/convert 40k plastic guard but then the same argument could be made against doing Heresy era space marine armies but clearly they're doing well.

There was some interesting discussion about what makes the Imperial Army different from the Imperial Guard (call them Astra Militarum if you want but for me they're still the Guard). The Imperial Guard is very much a defensive force focused on holding back the enemies of the Imperium. It is a big lumbering machine, very centralised, with lots of specialist units equipped for their particular home environment - urban, desert, jungle, tundra, etc. By contrast the Imperial Army is a force of exploration and conquest. Rather than being driven by a big administrative machine, fueled by conscription and religious duty it is a diverse and decentralised force driven by commercial interests and personal gain. Although I don't think they specifically stated it here this is of course the golden age of the Rogue Trader. The ambitious and the desperate are flocking to join expeditions in the hope of striking it rich or being somebody. It put me in mind of 18th and 19th century America.

There will be some toys for the Legions. ALL legions, not just those with rules released so far will be getting legion Relics. Unlike 40k Relics which are generally Imperial artefacts these will be pre-Imperial relics from the Dark Age of Technology.

There are also going to be campaign rules to flesh out the war as Horus now looks to conquer worlds to feed his warmachine for what is obviously going to be a much longer war than he intended.

Sounds of War

I love BL audio dramas so this was a must. The atmosphere in the room as Templar started playing was incredible. There were cheers and applause after the first scene (Sigismund confronts Jubal Khan - epic).

Whilst talking about the limitations of timing when writing an audio drama John French confessed to recording his own scripts himself in order to check the timing. This prompted a bark of laughter and a cry of, "You are SO square." from ADB. Guy Haley asked him if he did the voices. There were calls from the audience and the other panellists for John to give us his Sigismund voice and for his personal recording to be released as a B side. Sadly I think from his sheepish reaction he probably went straight home and erased all evidence of his own recordings.

This did make me wonder if they ever wanted to appear in their own audio dramas (or someone elses). If I ever had an audio drama produced I'd want to at least have a cameo: Bridge Officer #2 declaring, "Captain! Torpedoes have overloaded the starboard void shields!" or some such. Perhaps even just a servitor - you don't need to be a professional actor to say, "Compliance".

Most bizarre bit of trivia from the weekend - Laurie Goulding mentioning that in audio drama "Templar" Sigismund is voiced by Tim Bentinck who plays David Archer in BBC Radio 4's long running soap "The Archers". I frequently listen to the 6.30 comedy slot on Radio 4 on my way home from work and if I'm running late then it runs over into the 7pm slot which is The Archers. Whilst by no means a follower of the show I am sufficiently acquainted that I drove home from the Weekender listening to Templar and trying to dissociate Dorn's most famous son from a man who laments the state of his pasture grass or worries about whether his dairy herd has TB.

After Isstvan

"Not all of the Legions emerged from the Dropsite Massacre quite as they entered it."

Iron Hands - this largely overlapped with Shattered Legions. The main teaser was that we're going to be hearing the phrase "The Keys of Hel" a fair bit. These have already been mentioned in either Massacre or Extermination, I can't remember which, but will become more prominent. Essentially, even Ferrus Manus had limits and he locked away technology that he thought was too dangerous for his legion or the Mechanicum. Even as some of his sons mourn his death others are scrambling over each other to take advantage of the lack of supervision.

Salamanders - Although we the readers know that Vulkan lives many of the Salamanders do not. The Salamanders were rare in that being reunited with their Primarch actually saved them whereas many legions were warped by their Primarchs. Now that he is gone, will they revert to their old characteristics and sacrifice themselves on the anvil of war?

Night Lords - Of all the legions these are the least changed. Now they are just free to be who they always really were. A D-B commented that they were not sitting in trenches on Isstvan having this conversation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

Alpha Legion - Align Bligh and Rob Sanders clearly have strong ideas for these guys and I very much agree with them. As we discussed in a recent thread on this forum - the strongest counter to the Alpha Legion is the Alpha Legion. We don't know how many "Alpha Legions" there are. There is a Legion that follows Alpharius, a Legion that follows Omegon and other Legions that may be doing things neither Alpharius nor Omegon know anything about. On the subject of Alpharius and Omegon Rob Sanders said that it may be that Alpharius and Omegon are working together for a common goal or that they are working against one another in pursuit of differing goals. Whilst The Serpent Beneath suggests the latter Rob teased us with the notion that A/O have agreed to work together towards a common goal but have compartmentalised their actions so that neither knows what the other is doing in pursuit of that goal so sometimes the heads of the Hydra come into conflict. He likened their twin bond to a marriage.

Like a terrorist network, the Alpha Legion is a franchise. It shares it's branding and its core methods with the broader organisation but each "cell" is semi-autonomous. Even the Legionaries don't know who they serve. As Alan Bligh said creepily, "You take your orders from a man in a mask, but is the man behind the mask the same one who was behind the mask last week?"

At this point someone linked it to Rob's marriage comment and there was speculation as to whether Alan's wife in a mask this week was the same woman as was wearing a mask for him last week.

Shattered Legions

Bit of a weird one really as it seemed to overlap a lot with the previous seminar. Until now the term "Shattered Legions" has generally been seen as referring to the survivors of the Dropsite Massacre but it seems that the BL authors have a slightly different take on it now.

Because Corax survived Istvann and returned to his legion fairly promptly the Raven Guard aren't necessarily a shattered legion. Also, some members of other legions such as the Imperial Fists from Phall are cut off from their Primarch and the way of war they have always known so in a sense they sort of are Shattered Legion forces.

Apparently now the general view is that the battle lines have been drawn. We're not really going to see any more of the kind of stuff we saw in Galaxy In Flames or Scars where a legion, or factions within a legion are trying to choose sides. What we are going to see instead is those factions trying to decide what it means to be that faction. For example, for loyalists they need to decide whether their purpose now is to kill traitors and avenge the dead even if it means sacrificing parts of the Imperium and going out in a blaze of glory (obviously Iron Hand-esque mindset) or trying to protect what remains of the Imperium, even if it means conceding some things to the Traitors (perhaps more Salamander-esque mentality).

Closing Ceremony

Prizes, thanks, rounds of applause.

It was revealed that those players who had participated in the gaming events over the weekend had been unknowingly play testing potential campaign scenarios for Book IV:Conquest. The winner of the event gaming got a big cheer when it was revealed that with appropriate VIth Legion ruthlessness he had achieved the objective of preventing the Navigator falling into Traitor hands by shooting the Navigator.

[Emperors Teeth]

There was an astonishing Perturabo - how they managed to get a bag with so many yellow, black and grey bits I don't know; it must have been Tzeentch's work. Hopefully there are pics somewhere. I think A D-B was one of the judges, he certainly spent a fair bit of time scrutinising the submissions and his face was a picture when it came to some of the entries. This is a family friendly forum so let's just say that there were some anatomically ambitious devotees of Slaanesh.

Cheers, dude ! My contributions were the feet and his gun. We were banging our heads against the wall for a long time... the two dozer blades used for the feet were just about the only identical pieces in the bag! I did a run-around to different teams trading for cool looking pieces, lol!

Perturabo front

Perturabo back

Album of photos from the event... here

[Inquisitor Kravin]

You're welcome!

The trading explains it, good initiative. I looked at so many of those models afterwards and thought, "Wow, they had way cooler bits than us" and the lack of any kind of consistency of shape, colour or size in ours was a massive challenge. I thought it was probably just a bit of a "Grass is always greener..." mentality on my part but we obviously just didn't do enough bartering.

 

Do you have a picture of pretty Perturabo?

[Marshal Loss]

Awesome write up mate. Really appreciate it.

 

Quick q though: will there be anything at all for the legions featured in Conquest, eg new rites of war for Iron Hands/Sallies/DG/SoH etc, or are they simply the characters in the narrative of that book?

[Inquisitor Kravin]

So far as I recall the only direct additions to the Legion rules were the Relics. Legions will appear in the narrative material but no indication of additional Rites of War or characters. The first three books were a trilogy as they all related to the events in the Istvann system (plus Phall which happened roughly concurrently). Conquest is probably a standalone book that is more about adding scenarios and campaign rules for using the existing legion forces rather than expanding them. After that we can currently expect Calth which will probably be too much to fit in one book if they are going to do everything they would like to so that could be a two book set. After that nobody knows, not even the FW guys.

 

GW seems to have a cycle where they churn out codexes and some of them feel rushed or incomplete as if it was more important to get a release in the allotted month than it was to get it done to the best possible standard, after all in another four or five years they'll be replacing it anyway. FW is completely different, it's more a case of, "It'll be finished when its finished." They don't even have a definite release month for Conquest. At the current rate it will be at least a decade before they've done everything the first time around. The rumoured book Inferno covering Prospero seems to have disappeared for now as the 1k Sons are so different from normal legions.

 

This reminds me of probably the best question in any seminar:
Gentleman in audience: "I'm over fifty. Will I live to see a book covering the Siege of Terra released?"

Alan Bligh [deadpan]: "No."

[b1soul]

Inquisitor Kravin, you god...

[Piano_Sam]

Thanks for the summary! One question: I'd remembered reading about a 'toolbox' that was going to be part of Conquest (I think) where you can create your own scenarios and even build your own characters. Is that right, or did I just mis-hear it? BoLS had something about it and so did Battlebunnies. Any idea?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

so the RG wont be getting much/anything in Shattered Legions?

 

WLK

[Blood Angel Scout]

Thanks for re-posting Inquisitor, a lot of interesting info

[Mazryonh]

GW seems to have a cycle where they churn out codexes and some of them feel rushed or incomplete as if it was more important to get a release in the allotted month than it was to get it done to the best possible standard, after all in another four or five years they'll be replacing it anyway. FW is completely different, it's more a case of, "It'll be finished when its finished." They don't even have a definite release month for Conquest. At the current rate it will be at least a decade before they've done everything the first time around. The rumoured book Inferno covering Prospero seems to have disappeared for now as the 1k Sons are so different from normal legions.

It does make sense for them to take their time to properly portray the Thousand Sons and how unique they are from more "standard" Legions.  For one thing, there were never very many Thousand Sons marines to begin with (they will almost certainly make each individual marine model cost a lot, but how will that be balanced against the other Legions?).  Their widespread use of Psyker powers also set them apart from many of the Legions as well, at least before the Horus Heresy got into full swing. 

 

 

 

This reminds me of probably the best question in any seminar:

Gentleman in audience: "I'm over fifty. Will I live to see a book covering the Siege of Terra released?"

Alan Bligh [deadpan]: "No."

Well, they've got scads to cover--so many Legions' rules and unique models left to fully flesh out, lots of scenarios to create, lots of fluff to write and art to make (though that last part is admittedly somewhat formulaic when it comes to depictions of typical Legionnaires and specific Legions' vehicles).  GW should seriously consider committing more staff to the HH gamebook project to get them out somewhat sooner.  I'm pretty sure lots of people would love to help playtest HH scenarios and rules if FW only let them.

 

I'm sure before the final "Siege of Terra" book is released, they'll certainly hype up their model of "the Big E" beyond all comprehension.  Maybe they'll also release a "Horus Transcendant" model that shows Horus fully empowered by all 4 Chaos Gods, which will also lock bases with the Emperor's model.

[Balthamal]

The big reason for the benching of Inferno wasn't just the Thousand Sons, but everything else in the book too. From the three people I spoke to on the subject (Simon Egan, Andy Hoare, Alan Bligh) the thousand sons would be tough to convert from everything they are in the novels, into a table top army. They'd need mechanics beyond anything seen in 40k or fantasy up to this point, even Grey Knights as companies and squads weren't broken down along cult lines. Then on top of that you have the Wolves, Custodians, Sisters of Silence and Prospero Spireguard, none of which flow fairly easily from anything existing, apart from maybe the Spireguard, a lot will depend on how the Solar Auxillia pans out on that score. All in all, it is an ungodly amount of work, certainly years worth. So we could be sat waiting a few for that one book or ideas and development can be put into others and lead into natural evolution when Propsero gets it's day in the sun. Overall, I'm happy that there's going to be new material, even if a lot of people disregard it as "filler", the DIY campaign and character progression system they're looking to put in, along with Legion relics and other bits and pieces make it more than worthwhile on my part.

 

As for the rest of the weekend, again, I hold my hand up and apologize for being "that guy" who started a queue for ADB. And for talking to him for what must have been an age to everyone else but only a short time for me. High point, his first words to me being "You're off B&C, the Welshman" Life is sweet as they say.

 

I think the rest of my musings from my time there have survived the purge as it were but biggest cheer, hands down, of the weekend went to the Gal Vorbak. Easy to see why when looking at the models too.

 

Oh and my prize for being part of the winning quiz team? The robo-pig constructed from Plasticine and lego. A worthy trophy sinc "Perturabo" was already claimed and the ahem Slaaneshi "body part" was a bit too extreme for me to touch never mind take home

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Inquisitor Kravin, you god...

Thank you. Before my ego swells too much I ought to say that if I have seen further than anyone else it is only because I have stood upon the shoulders of giants transhumans.

Thanks for the summary! One question: I'd remembered reading about a 'toolbox' that was going to be part of Conquest (I think) where you can create your own scenarios and even build your own characters. Is that right, or did I just mis-hear it? BoLS had something about it and so did Battlebunnies. Any idea?

Ah yes, the "toolbox". I think it was Andy Hoare in particular who kept using that term. You're right. When I said that Conquest will have campaign systems and scenarios it's not just ones tied to the specific narrative(s) in the book but a more generic system for creating your own campaigns with everything that that entails.

so the RG wont be getting much/anything in Shattered Legions?

WLK

My impression is that Shattered Legions isn't a specific book or rigidly defined concept. It's more a general theme or area. The writers want to explore the impact on those marines and see how their experiences turned the Legions that were into the Chapters that will be. That's not to say Raven Guard won't get more love, they just fall in a different category as they still have a Primarch.

Thanks for re-posting Inquisitor, a lot of interesting info

Thanks for tackling my wall of text.

GW seems to have a cycle where they churn out codexes and some of them feel rushed or incomplete as if it was more important to get a release in the allotted month than it was to get it done to the best possible standard, after all in another four or five years they'll be replacing it anyway. FW is completely different, it's more a case of, "It'll be finished when its finished." They don't even have a definite release month for Conquest. At the current rate it will be at least a decade before they've done everything the first time around. The rumoured book Inferno covering Prospero seems to have disappeared for now as the 1k Sons are so different from normal legions.

It does make sense for them to take their time to properly portray the Thousand Sons and how unique they are from more "standard" Legions. For one thing, there were never very many Thousand Sons marines to begin with (they will almost certainly make each individual marine model cost a lot, but how will that be balanced against the other Legions?). Their widespread use of Psyker powers also set them apart from many of the Legions as well, at least before the Horus Heresy got into full swing.

This reminds me of probably the best question in any seminar:

Gentleman in audience: "I'm over fifty. Will I live to see a book covering the Siege of Terra released?"

Alan Bligh [deadpan]: "No."

Well, they've got scads to cover--so many Legions' rules and unique models left to fully flesh out, lots of scenarios to create, lots of fluff to write and art to make (though that last part is admittedly somewhat formulaic when it comes to depictions of typical Legionnaires and specific Legions' vehicles). GW should seriously consider committing more staff to the HH gamebook project to get them out somewhat sooner. I'm pretty sure lots of people would love to help playtest HH scenarios and rules if FW only let them.

I'm sure before the final "Siege of Terra" book is released, they'll certainly hype up their model of "the Big E" beyond all comprehension. Maybe they'll also release a "Horus Transcendant" model that shows Horus fully empowered by all 4 Chaos Gods, which will also lock bases with the Emperor's model.

Interesting point. Somebody asked about multiple versions of Primarchs and I think Alan Bligh said that there may be as many as three sets of model and rules for Horus. Pre-Heresy, Isstvann (which I guess is the one we already have), full blown Chaos Horus from Siege of Terra.

The big reason for the benching of Inferno wasn't just the Thousand Sons, but everything else in the book too. From the three people I spoke to on the subject (Simon Egan, Andy Hoare, Alan Bligh) the thousand sons would be tough to convert from everything they are in the novels, into a table top army. They'd need mechanics beyond anything seen in 40k or fantasy up to this point, even Grey Knights as companies and squads weren't broken down along cult lines. Then on top of that you have the Wolves, Custodians, Sisters of Silence and Prospero Spireguard, none of which flow fairly easily from anything existing, apart from maybe the Spireguard, a lot will depend on how the Solar Auxillia pans out on that score. All in all, it is an ungodly amount of work, certainly years worth. So we could be sat waiting a few for that one book or ideas and development can be put into others and lead into natural evolution when Propsero gets it's day in the sun. Overall, I'm happy that there's going to be new material, even if a lot of people disregard it as "filler", the DIY campaign and character progression system they're looking to put in, along with Legion relics and other bits and pieces make it more than worthwhile on my part.

As for the rest of the weekend, again, I hold my hand up and apologize for being "that guy" who started a queue for ADB. And for talking to him for what must have been an age to everyone else but only a short time for me. High point, his first words to me being "You're off B&C, the Welshman" Life is sweet as they say.

I think the rest of my musings from my time there have survived the purge as it were but biggest cheer, hands down, of the weekend went to the Gal Vorbak. Easy to see why when looking at the models too.

Oh and my prize for being part of the winning quiz team? The robo-pig constructed from Plasticine and lego. A worthy trophy sinc "Perturabo" was already claimed and the ahem Slaaneshi "body part" was a bit too extreme for me to touch never mind take home

Agreed about Prospero, the whole thing is huge.

Put your hand back down. You weren't "That guy" in my session as I was first there. It was just a hypothetical person and I was afraid it would be me. Perhaps though if his first words were the high point you should have quit at that point. That would have been awesome. I saw so many people going up to an author with what looked like every book that author had ever written and asking them to sit and sign a stack of books or talk for five minutes. If someone had the self control to just be like:

Fan: Hi Aaron. Good to see you again.

A D-B: Hello.

Fan: Have a good weekend. See ya.

<Walks away leaving A D-B with his shiny gold autographing pen hanging>

[Balthamal]

Haha if only I possessed such iron self restraint. Sadly I dissolved into vacant eyed fan-boy mode but managed to avoid dribbling and even got a bro fist, which to me screams win.John French was equally cool, more for the in depth discussions on Ahriman and Sigismund.

 

On the multiple models front, Horus is slated for 3 (start, middle, end) whilst Fulgrim is also a contender for 3 (normal, decadent, ascended) Mortarion and Angron probably 2 each. Perturabo, Konrad Curze and Alpharius/Omegon will likely stick at 1. Lorgar, maybe a second but I don't know how it could be evolved from his current model and Magnus, well, how do you model a cloud of light? I find it implausible that the loyalists will get more than 1 given how little they actually change, maybe a Ferrus without a head?

 

And as for Shattered Legions, it was rumored that Conquest would contain an alternate FoC in order to build an army around that type of force. As someone mentioned, it isn't based on not having a Primarch (Raven Guard) or loss of numbers (Iron Hands still have loads) it's more due to the Legions themselves fragmenting and no longer fighting as part of an overarching formation as the Legions were up to that point. The Raven Guard lack the numbers for such whilst the Salamanders are equally low on fighting strength. For the Iron Hands it's a bit different, in that the Primarch and the vast majority of the Legion elite are dead. It's noted in Massacre that the favored were more or less all in the Avernii Clan and since they were at Istvaan they pretty much died to a man so that whole layer at the top of the Legion has lost a huge swathe of it's influence.

 

Consequently, the Thousand Sons and Night Lords are also shattered Legions in the aftermath of Prospero and Thramas respectively

[Kol Saresk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to describe the Shattered Legions isn't as any Legion in particular, but rather it is a catch all term for any ad hoc formation that is operating independently from the main body, wheter it be because of opposing ideologies or inability to (re)establish communication with said body.

 

For example, the Raven Guard with Corax are not part of the Shattered Legions. But the Raven Guard who are with Guilliman are. Bloodsworn, Shattered Legions. IX Legion Signus Prime Survivors, not Shattered Legions. Polux and his merry bad of men, Shattered Legions. Imperial Fist defenders of Terra, not Shattered Legions. And so on.

 

Unless that's wrong of course.

[Balthamal]

I'd agree with that

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

even with a Primarch, losing 77,000 Marines in a hundred day period makes you a Shattered Legion in my book.

 

WLK

[Mazryonh]

Interesting point. Somebody asked about multiple versions of Primarchs and I think Alan Bligh said that there may be as many as three sets of model and rules for Horus. Pre-Heresy, Isstvann (which I guess is the one we already have), full blown Chaos Horus from Siege of Terra.

Won't there also be two versions of Corvus Corax too?  He loses his Jump Pack after Isstvan and his dual Archeotech pistols.  He also starts hefting a Heavy Bolter to replace his pistols.  It is possible they could make a model of Corax that can be converted between the two versions, but then the poses he can take are limited to accomodate both. 

[Kol Saresk]

No, he still has his jump pack after Istvaan. He lost one of his claws to Lorgar's crozius and replaced it with a whip.

[Piano_Sam]

What would be the point of a Pre-Heresy Horus? How dissimilar would it be to the current one? Are they planning on doing some Great Crusade era books as well?