Kilofix Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Massive Spoilers may follow! During the latter part of the Crusade, when the Emperor left things to Horus and the Council, was it because he was busy working on his version of the webway (that Magnus eventually broke)? If yes, in which BL book or other source can one read more about this? On a related note, what was his eventual goal? To abandon Warp Travel completely (like the Eldar)? But, even then, the threat of the Warp and Daemons would still persist with the onset of Psykers right? Lastly, do you think he planned on divulging all of the above at some point to his Primarchs? Thanks for the insights! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl of Wulfen Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 1. Yes 2. Visions of Heresy and a touch in A Thousands Sons, I think. 3. I believe so. The whole human race bound to become psychic. He was trying to prevent it all going up at once and avoid another Eldar style fall. 4. I imagine he would have but well, you know, heresies happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 As for the psychic thing making humanity more vulnerable to Chaos, everything I have read on this topic states that this would eventually take us beyond the grasp of Chaos, but that the journey to that point is where we are the most vulnerable. The Emperor's intention was to guide humanity through its evolution to the point where everyone is a psyker and beyond Chaos' corrupting reach. I assume the Webway was a means of lessening the influence during that time, by allowing humanity to travel within the Warp safely, as I am sure that it is Warp travel that accounts for the bulk of Chaos corruption. How that actually works, I don't really know. I can't remember the sources, but I remember that this is given to be true. Humanity is on the path to becoming a fully psychic race, and once it reaches that pinnacle than Chaos will no longer be able to affect us (somehow), so long as the human race is kept genetically pure along the way (the Emperor's goal). With certain abhuman breeds and mutations representing deliberate attempts to shift human evolution in the Warp's benefit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I sincerely doubt Chaos would cease to affect us. Even if it sid, remember the Enslaver plague wiping out the ancients? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Even if becoming a fully psychic race didn't prevent humans from becoming corrupted by Chaos it'd still minimize the danger that any one person falling to Chaos would represent. You'd end up with one Chaos empowered magic guy surrounded by a bunch of regular magic guys that might be able to take him down. Not perfect, but better than the 40k situation where people into Chaos surrounded by people without a clue and are able to gather a bunch of weak minded followers to serve as either cannon fodder or sacrifices. I have problems buying into the idea that the Emperor was building his own webway in order to serve simply as a transportation network. To be sure, not having to rely on the Warp for travel and communication would have been a pretty huge thing, but it's not nearly the level of thing that would totally change the course of the human race. Assuming you built it, then shot all the Navigators (which don't have a huge history of falling to Chaos) and existing Astropaths, you'd still be left with the issue of increasing numbers of psykers being born and opening up the gates to Hell simply because they don't know any better. My take is that the web project was being built with another goal in mind and any transportation functionality would simply be an added bonus. We know that the human built sections were constructed using a material that the Emperor could project his power through. In fact he needed to do that in order to keep those new sections from being destroyed by the Warp. So what if this projection of power wasn't a requirement of the project, but instead was the goal of the project. Two ideas: 1) Build a galaxy spanning network of that material and then the Emperor projects his power on it in order to cleanse or repel the native denizens of the Warp from the region (in as much as there is such a thing what with physical laws not being a thing in the Warp) of the Imperium, thus allowing humans in the Imperium to develop their psychic potential without the constant danger of being chomped by a daemon. 2) Build the network, then use the Emperor's power to either soulbind everyone in the galaxy to the Emperor, pretty much solving the issue of Chaotic influence, or through the magic of handwavium, accelerate the development of psyker powers in order to skip over this whole dangers 'adolescent' phase of evolution. Long story short, in order for me to buy the idea that the webway project was going to save humanity and was worth the risk of pulling the Emperor off the front lines, then it needs to be a tad bigger than just a galactic subway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 The Emperor's plan? To fill the galaxy with light, law, and love. His light. His law. And love only for him. And as far as humanity as humanity becoming a psychic race putting it beyond the grasp of Chaos...I can't buy it. Not given how badly the all psyker eldar were screwed over (and are still getting screwed over) by the Ruinous Powers. Indeed, with the tendency of psykers to go barking mad and occasionally explode into daemons lowering their chances of passing on their psyk genes to the next generation, one would think that humanity would become less and less psychic as the millenia roll by, not more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 The theory honestly never made much sense to me either. I'm not sure what the 'final product' was supposed to be, that would make humanity so well-protected. Especially since it's given that the psyker gene is the key.Why not the pariah gene? I get that it is many levels of magnitude more rare than psykers, but . . . well, actually, maybe I just got it. If the pariah gene is an extension of humanity's evolution through the psyker gene, perhaps the end result wasn't to be a fully psychic race, but to be a fully pariah race. Which explains why the 'adolescent' stage of evolution is so tricky and full of problems, if the path towards a fully Pariah species involves it becoming increasingly psychic first. If this is true, then the Emperor's plans might very well have been the last psyker in a species of pariahs. At that point, the most dangerous thing for humanity would have been the Emperor's continued existence. Which would actually be hilariously fitting. In the grimdarkness of the far future, humanity's only hope is to evolve into a smelly, unlikable species who doesn't need a shiny golden god to tell them what to do. Further evidence that the Orks are the master race. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Which would actually be hilariously fitting. In the grimdarkness of the far future, humanity's only hope is to evolve into a smelly, unlikable species who doesn't need a shiny golden god to tell them what to do. To be fair, blanks aren't automatically smelly, just off putting to non-blanks and worse for psykers. The only blank I'm aware of that ever mentions smell as a thing is Jurgen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3746994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 It varies author to author. Bequin was just unlikable until Gregor had a century to overcome the automatic response, but also caused physical pain by contact. There was one, I can't remember which book, that was described as disgusting, with disgusting habits. But, it is illustrated that the man let himself go and be free with those disgusting habits because it was his Untouchableness that originally made him disgusting to everyone else. Like he didn't bother hiding his pornographic reading material, because his pariah gene made everyone think of him as a lecherous creep even when he wasn't. The Sisters of Silence, on the other hand, seem to suffer no ill effects beyond making people feel disconcerted or uneasy, regardless of the strength of their null zone. Perhaps it is like the psykers themselves, and the pariahs differ wildly from each other in how the gene expresses itself. In general though, Jurgan sounds like the norm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraCaptain Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 It seems counter intuitive. If all humans are psykers, they are much more vulnerable. Only if they train and have a strong mind, can they as psykers defend themself from chaos. But the majority will never be strong enough to defend their mind. Also, this reasoning also assumes chaos is still there, so if all humans are psykers they get affected less by chaos, but chaos is still as much a treath? Am i the only one failing to see logic. Another contradiction is the logic of the isolation era. All planets with humans who fell to chaos didnt warp travel. They were isolated on their planet and chaos found them because evil grew, not because they were exposed. This is thread is just misguided info. The emperor would have exterminated chaos because no one would know it excisted. He dictated an empire upon all planets with unbeatable police so any riot, disturbance and overall evil would be put down. That is why chaos desperately set plans in motion to corrupt his sons. Chaos lives in each of us, because we believe and use evil, and because of our human emotions that grateuatly makes us more evil if we make the wrong choices in life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 FWIW, originally (1st to 5th Edition) the Emperor returned to Terra to oversee the administration of the new and vast Imperium that had been formed through the Great Crusade. Near the end of the Crusade, overseeing a realm of a million worlds would have been the more daunting task compared to leading the tried and proven Legionnes Astartes against what remained in resistance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 To encourage the Blank Gene to spread through humanity would of been a better option, then the warp..........would be blinded to us allllllll *dun dun dunnnnnnnnnn* Thing is though the Eldar were engineered to be psyker's and had to keep a tighter hold of their own personal emotions, any feeling they felt was ideed magnified. I know humans have been just as vulnerable to the warp in some circumstances, but by naturally evolving to the next level of human progression and by limiting exposure to the warp, then just maybe the Emperor thought we might start to build a natural immunity. Same way some humans are not effected by certain allergies, maybe he hoped to have us breed it out and saw only to safely facilitate us as best he could till evolution kicked in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 And as far as humanity as humanity becoming a psychic race putting it beyond the grasp of Chaos...I can't buy it. Not given how badly the all psyker eldar were screwed over (and are still getting screwed over) by the Ruinous Powers. Well, I can't really recall that many eldar falling to chaos after The Fall. Heck, I cant' recall ANY. Slaneesh actively hunts them. And even the Dark Eldar hate chaos. Seems to me Eldar are very much in control. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The Outcast Dead had the whole Magnus interference and the ramifications. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I always found that The Emperor simply trying to improve public transportation wasn't all that cool. It would rather fight xenos filth with post-human badasses than making smarter transportation. I think there is more to it than just 'making the webbay accessible for humans'. IF it has to do with transportation I think it is more than just transportation around our own galaxy. I hope it turns out he was trying to make intergalactic travel possible via the webbay so humans could colonise other galaxies and get the civilisation to the next level. Other than that I think it could be that he was working on the same progress as Magnus. To try and unlock a psychic potential within all humans and that way equip humans to being able to learn about the warp and it's negative side in form of Chaos, and how to combat it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If chaos is "defeated" would the emperor's web way work? Would it be the only viable means of interstellar travel if humans can't experience the effects of the warp (sorta like Tau)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Well, if that was true then I would assume the Webway is to help protect humanity while it is still vulnerable. A state that would conceivably last a very long time. Certainly longer than the actual life span of the human species as it is now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3747827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Thanks for all the info. Yeah the Webway thing didn't completely make sense to me either. I mean 'that other xenos faction' has working Webways and it hasn't really solved anything (has it?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I remember the webway being used for instantaneous movement of forces, rather then travelling via the realm of chaos. Legions appearing when and where straight away also utilising a second safer abode for the imperium within the webway and allowing humanity to grow and expand thus controlling chaos by birthing our own warp born gods of justice peace etc (basically the primarchs) to control the warp and bring those sentient Bastardos to heel (the big 4) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Well, I just can't think how if the humans further evolve as a species would allow them to "free" themselves from the Warp. Why I say that? Because the Chaos Gods feed from human emotions. All emotions end up feeding them. Slaanesh was born from the Eldar's vanity. Other Chaos Gods could be given birth probably too. Chaos exists naturally in the universe as I understand. It isn't just "WE ARE EVILLLLL! BUAHAHAHAHA!". So, as long as anything has a heart, the same organ that makes us human is the very same cause of eternally feeding Chaos, as well as it is a cause of duality for human beings. Evolution would probably mean Chaos would evolve as well to adjust. That's what I think with what I know and can philosophically assume at the least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Evolved human emotions would still feed Chaos, but humans as they are now, especially psykers, are in turn susceptible to the influence of Chaos, which can abuse them to create pathways into our reality. The evolved humans would no longer be vulnerable, and would be able to withstand the influences of Chaos, which would mean Khorne could rage all he wanted, but he could not incite wars on human worlds or tear open the mind of a psyker to spew hordes of bloodletters onto a world. Chaos would not be defeated, but humanity could shut it out. Chaos could still influence other sentient beings, but that would not be mankind's problem. Edit: That was the original premise of the WH40K universe as described in the 1987 Rogue Trader rulebook, btw. It is not just my interpretation of affairs. "Left uncontrolled, the emerging race of psychic humans would become the unwitting vehicle of humanity's destruction. For there are many foul aliens which not only feed upon the life-force of other races, but which use that life-force as a means of opening portals in warp space, infiltrating populated planets via the poorly protected minds of inexperienced psykers. The Master of Mankind knows that to protect his race he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face. If thousands much endure pain and death for his sake, how considerable must be the agony of a creature whose body is all but destroyed, whose mind is encased inside a rotting shell and whose every thought is enslaved to the task of serving his race." - 1987 Rogue Trader Rulebook, p. 188 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 And as far as humanity as humanity becoming a psychic race putting it beyond the grasp of Chaos...I can't buy it. Not given how badly the all psyker eldar were screwed over (and are still getting screwed over) by the Ruinous Powers. Well, I can't really recall that many eldar falling to chaos after The Fall. Heck, I cant' recall ANY. Slaneesh actively hunts them. And even the Dark Eldar hate chaos. Seems to me Eldar are very much in control. Minus the slaves in the eye who didn't die from their sols being ripped out, wasn't there that one guy who turned to Khorne so Slaanesh wouldn't take him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The RT rule book, as Legatus points out, and the other two RoC books appeared more certain of the role if Chaos in both the case of the Emperor but also humanity in general. I can pull those out if needed, but so many things from that time like the Ultramarines and Raven Wing origins, have been retconnned. Since I don't read BL books, I'm unfamiliar with contemporary views of those matters. I don't recall the web way explicitly mentioned in Visions of Heresy, just a big secret project. Thanks for the info. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 It is still the lore in the current Wh40K rulebooks, at least. That does not mean that it is also the lore in Black Library books, fo course. From the 6th Edition Rulebook: "Mankind stands on the verge of an evolutionary change tens of thousands of years in the making. If humanity can survive the trauma of change, it can cast off the mundane shackles of its current form to begin a new epoch of psionic mastery, an era of wonderment and the dawning of a hitherto unseen golden age. Throughout the Imperium, the tide of psychically active humans continues to rise on a daily basis, yet that Mankind will survive this deluge at all is by no means certain. Against this backdrop of a galaxy at war, the Imperium faces an unrelenting doom. If the ever-increasing number of rogue psykers are not controlled, what they unwittingly unleash will further strain the fabric that holds the Warp at bay. Should too many holes be punctured through reality, should that gap ever be too widely bridged, then the powers within the Warp will burst forth to consume the galaxy. A time of endless night presses in and, everywhere, the enemies of Mankind gather like eaters of carrion. Only the Emperor's foresight and preparations stand a chance of seeing humanity through such end times... Shrouded in billiwing alchemical gases, connected by miles of wires and tubes, the Emperor understands and faces the dangers that threaten to engulf Mankind. Utterly cut off and alone, he has assumed the role preordained for him as guardian of humanity and protector of its metamorphosis. The Master of Mankind knows that he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face from the Warp without him." - 6th Edition Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 163 The 5th Edition Rulebook touched on those matters on the pages 112 and 113, though the Emperor's role was not as clrearly described in that book. I haven't gotten my hands on the 7th Edition books yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Hmm, that actually doesn't say that a psychically evolved human race would be free from Chaos taint though. Rather it says Humanity would stand a better chance of fighting Chaos. No guarantee of victory, but the potential to give a good punch to the face. Provided the same process doesn't result in too much warp spilling out into the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293832-questions-about-the-emperors-work-during-30k-spoilers/#findComment-3748592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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