Triple_double_U Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hey B&C-ers. I've just got stuck into guard as my 7th ed army. I'm having a lot of fun with them, the opportunity for variation is enormous and keeps it fun. However I'm finding its lacking a few choice elements. - Something fast that either threatens the enemies backfield units or at least be a distraction to them. - Some good fun assault units (Ogryn are ok, but I like the slabshield models better.) I've settled on Sisters as an ally to fill the above holes (I know they aren't the best at the above, but the look and fluff of them fit perfectly, also no one else plays them around here). I'm keen on a unit of Seraphim to act as backfield threats. Are twin flamers threatening enough? S3 worries me a bit. Or the outflanking sisters (can't remember their name while at work) As for assault I can't settle on Repentia or a Penitent engine. Neither model appeals aesthetically, so conversions will be done, which I'm more than happy for. But once again, which of the options is more threatening? Repentia in a non assault vehicle, or a slow walker? I haven't checked point costs yet to see a comparion for similar costs though. I should probably mention a few things about the way I game. Firstly, I don't compete at tournaments, nor build the hardest lists possible. Army building for me generally stems from preference of model and fluff first then building those options into a TAC list from there. I still like to have a good hard game, but the result is less important than having a fun couple of hours with mates. I know the above is more waffle than not, but any advice or general chat would be great. Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Have you considered grey knights? the troops choices deepstrike and have force weapons, so you get your melee unit and your deep threat in the same package. Sisters are not great at melee, and really not great at threatening the enemy deployment zone. I have a very nice WYSIWYG meltaphim squad...and it hasn't seen any action since fourth edition. Seraphim just aren't a good unit these days. B my the time you pay for HQ and troops to unlock the seraphim and the melee unit of your choice, you've paid a heavy tax and ended up with mediocre solutions to your problem. I really don't think SoB are going to meet your needs. I love my repentia, but they either need thd redundancy of a second squad or they need a land raider to ride in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple_double_U Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Thanks for the quick response. I'm not fussed about the tax really. There's no stigma attached to unbound with my gaming group, and none of us are the type that would try and break the game. So that's not great. I was keen on grey knights/blood angels/thunderwolf/or deep striking termies. But my gaming group already features all of those and I was keen for something unique. So Seraphim no good then? Are they cheap enough to have a decent sized unit of them to be more of a objective grabber/denier? I feared Repentia would struggle without an assault vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoqqu Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm sure that there are more effective armies out there but style is a value on it's own and sisters shine in that department. Outflanking squad of dominions armed to teeth with melta in an mm immolator will wreak havoc in the enemy's deployment zone. The handflamers are..nice, but you kind of have to use the act of faith if you want to make sure the 4 templates you throw at someone are more than just a warm gust of wind. Celestine is a nice addition to seraphim and she can mow down regular units but dedicated melee or 2+ saves kind of mess that up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Whilst I cannot agree with March10k on a few points, he is completely right about Sisters struggling to threaten the enemy deployment zone. It's one of our biggest weaknesses; though the tools we do have for it are precious and few and far between. Generally you are looking at: Long range support fire via retributors and exorcists (though guard have tools that are better for this). Scouting anti-tank Dominions either charging forward to kill early or outflanking. Seraphim for fast movement/deepstrike and infantry harrassment. Saint Celestine for the same reasons as Seraphim. The tools are good at what they do, that said, other codices do have more/better options for this. That said, if you are set on Sisters then Seraphim are a great unit at what they do... They just might not kill much. S3 handflamers are fine when you have 4 templates and shred! As for our close combat units, in my testing, Penitent Engines are superior to Repentia. Repentia are so fragile that to use them aggressively they will need significant point investment, sometimes more then the engines. Still, you can get by with them quite nicely if you use them as counter assault, it's just that Pen. Engines can also do this and more :p You may be surprised how far a 'slow walker' can get in a game. There's only ever 24" between the armies, after all, making them a great midfield killer (where all the truly scary stuff is anyway). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solynnor Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Before any comment from me, i wanna say that i still didn't have time to test all the evil strategies sanctified inspirations i have in mind, on the battlefield. But who said you couldn't get into the backfield of an ennemy with SoB? No one i hope. Just think about 2 units of dominions: 1 with melta in MM immolator as Thoqqu just said last post, (be sure you wreck any leman russ/land raider you get in range) and another one for example with....let's say full flamers in immolator with HF? But i see the shadow of a doubt as i write this line. In 7th ed, is the twin-linked Heavy Flamer still that "S5 re-roll to wound BBQ stuff" we used to love? This is absolutely a biased sight of SoB, i love them too much to see their defaults Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 'Not good at threatening the backfield'? Pfft. We're awesome at threatening the backfield. Putting Melta-Dominions in Outflank Reserve guarantees you a kill on an enemy backfield unit, what with Ignores Cover and BS4 meltagun spam (five of them for less than 100 points, but the sixth means taking an Immolator as well and doesn't ignore cover). Hand Flamer Seraphim are another 'guaranteed kill' unit, and in this case, you go big. Fill out the squad with bolt pistols to mop up anything the hand flamers don't roast - S3 may look weedy, but when you make that many hits on a unit and reroll to wound, you're murderising mobs and marines alike (even mobs of marines sometimes, if someone is dumb enough to take a block of 20 CSM!) Consider comboing them with a Tauros (IA3 SE) with a Homing Beacon for more accurate deep striking, since the buggies are generally pretty low-threat what with only being armed with a heavy flamer or a grenade launcher. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 'Not good at threatening the backfield'? Pfft. We're awesome at threatening the backfield. Putting Melta-Dominions in Outflank Reserve guarantees you a kill on an enemy backfield unit, what with Ignores Cover and BS4 meltagun spam (five of them for less than 100 points, but the sixth means taking an Immolator as well and doesn't ignore cover). Hand Flamer Seraphim are another 'guaranteed kill' unit, and in this case, you go big. Fill out the squad with bolt pistols to mop up anything the hand flamers don't roast - S3 may look weedy, but when you make that many hits on a unit and reroll to wound, you're murderising mobs and marines alike (even mobs of marines sometimes, if someone is dumb enough to take a block of 20 CSM!) Consider comboing them with a Tauros (IA3 SE) with a Homing Beacon for more accurate deep striking, since the buggies are generally pretty low-threat what with only being armed with a heavy flamer or a grenade launcher. I guess it goes to show how different our experiences are... My seraphim have never wiped a unit on their own (not counting Rhinos and such) and to be honest I'm pleasently surprised when they survive past turn 2! My opponent's hate them, and they die first. That said I have been able to unleash their full power, and I still found it lacking in terms of a 'wipe out the enemy role'. Thus harrassment duty with hit and run and support pot-shots. None of these means they are a bad unit, however; far from it! :) Dominions on the other hand, whilst easily one of our best units, are still limited in many ways including getting into the enemy's deployment zone, if that is your intention, especially if you want them to arrive when you need them. Remember, this is all relative to other armies; but in a 40k replete with jetbikes, drop-pods and flying units putting pressure on the backfield is something that Sisters need to dedicate entire FOC slots to. We can do it, we can do it sufficiently and dangerously; other armies can do it better :p The allied homing beacon that Furyou suggests is a good idea; as is the necessary large squad size for Seraphim. Personally for your purposes I would recommend Celestine, a big squad of seraphim with some meltabombs, and then whatever else you like the look of. They will do your job :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Outflaking dominions guarantee nothing! They're really only scary within 12" of the board edge, leaving a 4' wide zone of relative safety in the enemy deployment zone. I like that they force the enemy to compress towards the center of the table instead of using the full 6', since that makes things easier for our short-ranged shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Outflaking dominions guarantee nothing! They're really only scary within 12" of the board edge, leaving a 4' wide zone of relative safety in the enemy deployment zone. I like that they force the enemy to compress towards the center of the table instead of using the full 6', since that makes things easier for our short-ranged shooting. It's exactly why I deploy my Pen. Engines in the middle :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3747796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Play smaller points games on a 4x4 table then :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple_double_U Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 Thanks for all the replies. Many thoughts have been had - and it looks like for me Seraphim are coming out on top. But mainly because there's less unpredictablility in where they are going to arrive. If outflanking ends in the wrong table edge (33% I know, but I'm good at failing those sorts of one off important rolls) then its going to be a struggle to be effective. Whereas deepstriking, while not without its risks is better at getting them where I want. Seraphim win out, also because the role I'm after is more for entrenched long range units like looters (which I face a lot). It seems Seraphim, when compared to an equal weight of dominion, can potentially put out a lot more hits. Also, I've got more conversion plans running around my head for Seraphim. As for combat, you guys have convinced me to try a Penitent engine instead. Hopefully I'll have enough distractions with my Guard's tanks to let it live long enough to find a fight. Once again conversion opportunities abound for this. I'm looking at getting a dreadknight to base it on. Thanks again for the advice, I'll be in touch once I've tested them out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple_double_U Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 I don't have the codex on me at work. What the Ld of Seraphim? Will they need help getting the AoF off? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 9...drops to 8 if the superior dies....but good LD. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple_double_U Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 Excellent, 9 should be plenty enough...<crosses fingers> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonny Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 ideally you add Saint Celestine to the seraphim though. They were really made for another. An extra flamer, and some melee deterrent to boot. also, hit and run is just delightful against melee-oriented opponents, with that 5d3 wall of flame hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Noting that Seraphim get Hit and Run natively, but they are testing it on I3 instead of Celetine's I7. ^^; Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewm9 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Noting that Seraphim get Hit and Run natively, but they are testing it on I3 instead of Celetine's I7. ^^; if Celestine is with them they get to use her Initiative for Hit and Run. Characteristic tests in 7th work just like they did in 6th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I think that was the point of Miko's comment. Adding Celestine, amongst other things, greatly increases the chance of a successful hit and run. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Thanks for all the replies. Many thoughts have been had - and it looks like for me Seraphim are coming out on top. But mainly because there's less unpredictablility in where they are going to arrive. If outflanking ends in the wrong table edge (33% I know, but I'm good at failing those sorts of one off important rolls) then its going to be a struggle to be effective. Whereas deepstriking, while not without its risks is better at getting them where I want. Seraphim win out, also because the role I'm after is more for entrenched long range units like looters (which I face a lot). It seems Seraphim, when compared to an equal weight of dominion, can potentially put out a lot more hits. Also, I've got more conversion plans running around my head for Seraphim. As for combat, you guys have convinced me to try a Penitent engine instead. Hopefully I'll have enough distractions with my Guard's tanks to let it live long enough to find a fight. Once again conversion opportunities abound for this. I'm looking at getting a dreadknight to base it on. Thanks again for the advice, I'll be in touch once I've tested them out My advice for Pen. Engine use: Keep it in cover as it moves and use it firstly as a deterrent to drive your opponent's units into your firing lanes. If this works, you unleash maximum firepower on the exposed units; if it doesn't work, you get to flame and assault something with your Pen. Engine, killing or crippling it for the rest of the game! :) Most people I play seem to forget the engines are inside a ruin as the rest of the battle occurs... Also good call on the conversion... the official model is great looking but will cause you much frustration to assemble! It's the worst model I've ever had to put together! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Worse than the metal exorcist? That was a nightmare...only barely edged out by the metal tomb kings skullapult. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naminé Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Worse than the metal exorcist? That was a nightmare...only barely edged out by the metal tomb kings skullapult. About 5x worse. I wish that was an exaggeration... :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3748895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Wow... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3749055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoqqu Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Outflanking dominions in fast attacks = enemy blobs everything in the middle to avoid melta spam + Battle tanks and deathstrike/manticore in heavy slots = profit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3753475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Sounds like a plan. Good ol' Xanatos Gambit - he can spread to avoid the big booms, or he can cluster to avoid the meltas. Either way, you win! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293860-keen-on-sisters-as-an-ally-to-my-guard/#findComment-3753549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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