Piano_Sam Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hello All, This is more a thread for a discussion than a question regarding any particular chapter. Though, apologies if this has been brought up before../ I've seen it mentioned before that the Silver Skulls chapter (which are 'possibly' from Ultramarine stock) could have originated with Warsmith Barabas Dantioch of the Iron Warriors as, if not the Chapter Master, inspiration to the founding of this chapter, due to the similarity in insignia. He made his loyalties strongly known, and had a very close relationship with Guilliman. This idea interested me, and got me thinking about some other Second Founding chapters and possible origins. Another chapter that comes to mind is the red Scorpions and their possible connections to the Emperor's Children. What are y'all's thoughts on the issue? We already know that the Imperium is more than willing to utilize legionnaires of traitor legions, i.e. Knights Errant, so what would stop the Imperium of that time from using other Loyalists of traitor legions in the centuries following the Heresy? Sure, in the 41st millenium with the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, this wouldn't be an issue, but in the years after the Heresy, with a shortage of manpower and arms, coupled with a sense of rage and righteous indignation, it makes more sense for the Imperium to use the warriors most indignant and enraged to prosecute the Scouring. And after that? Why not let them found their own chapters...even if they use Ultramarine, or whichever legion, gene-stock? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Brief thoughts, as I'm at work: There's hints of IV Legion origins for the Marines Malevolent in Extermination. Sadly, I doubt we'll see this expanded upon at all, but it's a nice nibble. Keep in mind that although the legions themselves were generally either traitor or loyalist, there were also divides within each legion. With such blurred lines of loyalty, who's to say that some forces from traitor legions wouldn't be welcomed into the Imperial fold and subsumed as second founding chapters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piano_Sam Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 I hadn't heard that about the Marines Malevolent. That's neat. Their chapter badge reminds me of the Scars, so I just figured they were a successor of them. I doubt BL will do much in this regard, but it would be neat seeing the evolution of the marines post-Heresy, and maybe I'm looking for Easter eggs that aren't supposed to be there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There are common themes between elements of the Raven Guard Legion and the Carcharodons. The garrison force on Sotha have a scythe as their company emblem and Sotha eventually becomes the homeworld of the Scythes of the Emperor. Garro, with his slightly religious leanings, could be the founder of the Red Hunters. EDIT: Also forgot the obvious ones, the Black Templers, Excoriators, Executioners, Crimson Fists and Flesh Tearers. All of their founding Chapter Masters have appeared in the HH series now, I think. Sigismund, Alexus Polux and Amit definitely have, not 100% on Fafnir Raan and Katalfaque because I don't read so many shorts or audio dramas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Unremembered Empire (page 110) Holguin carried an executioner’s long sword upright before him in his two hands, the tip of the six-foot blade rounded over like a butter knife. His pauldron was marked with the crossed swords of the Deathwing. The Dark Angels successor, Guardians of the Covenant, have a crossed swords symbol for their chapter. (page 110 continued) Redloss carried a massive war-axe, haftwise across his chest. His pauldron bore the skull-in-hourglass of the Dreadwing. The skull-in-hourglass is a symbol of the Star Phantoms Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 EDIT: Also forgot the obvious ones, the Black Templers, Excoriators, Executioners, Crimson Fists and Flesh Tearers. All of their founding Chapter Masters have appeared in the HH series now, I think. Sigismund, Alexus Polux and Amit definitely have, not 100% on Fafnir Raan and Katalfaque because I don't read so many shorts or audio dramas. I'm not sure if Rann or Katafalque have made appearances yet. I've not seen any references to the Excoriators at all, actually, but then I'm not familiar with them. In response to OP, Extermination also explains the origins of the axes & shield emblem of the Executioners. Back to the MM/IV Legion link. Extermination mentions that a force of this legion adopted the army badge of a specific expeditionary fleet/imperial army force as their own. The badge was a winged lightning bolt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 But the Star Phantoms are a chapter of the cursed founding and not a second founding chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 But the Star Phantoms are a chapter of the cursed founding and not a second founding chapter. Looking up Star Phantoms on 1d4 and Lexicanum states otherwise. Current Accepted founding for them is the 23rd or the "Sentinel Founding". The Cursed was the 21st and we all know how that went. Add to that, that the Star Phantoms suffer from no muations (that we know of or are mentioned). Theres also a Cannon Conflict mentioned where they did stuff with the Flesh Tearers (2nd founding) less than a Hundred Years after the Heresy. The above lends even more credence to what Broth Archangel mentioned from the UE book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 But the Star Phantoms are a chapter of the cursed founding and not a second founding chapter. That does not necessarily mean there are not connected. Chapters have been reconstituted with the exact same heraldry as forebearing units. The Emperor's Swords were known to have been destroyed twice (and there is even a mention of two chapters founded at the exact same founding that had the exact same heraldry that eventually met up with each other generations later). The current rendition of the Star Phantoms are believed to be from the cursed founding.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There are quite a few Black Templar and Executioners references in Horus Heresy Extermination, mainly just insignia. As for traitor gene-seed, there is a chapter called the Storm Wardens in Fantasy Flight Games RPG series that are eerily similar to loyalist World Eaters (same colours and all) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Well, the Templar's Maltese Cross was the symbol for Veterancy in the Imperial Fists after all :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
corai Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm not sure if Rann or Katafalque have made appearances yet. I've not seen any references to the Excoriators at all, actually, but then I'm not familiar with them. In response to OP, Extermination also explains the origins of the axes & shield emblem of the Executioners. Rann is mentioned a few times in Extermination and makes an appearence in the Templar audio drama. Katalfalque is one of the characters in the first short storm in The Imperial Truth (the name of the story escapes me, its mostly about custodes and features maybe too much arguing that Imperial Fists weren't filling out the correct forms to defend stuff, put me in mind of the Imperial DMV) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The Excoriators Chapter Master Katafalque appeared in the event only book Imperial Truth, he was commanding the transportation of a defense platform, that the Custodians took offense to and ended up having a brief scrap. The Executioner chapter master Fafnir Rann appeared in the Templar audio drama. The possible first chapter master of the Iron Snakes is in Know No Fear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3748539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The possible first chapter master of the Iron Snakes is in Know No Fear. Saur Damocles is in Know No Fear, Captain of the Ultramarines' 6th Company, and on Page 32 it says the emblem he wears is a white serpent in a figure eight, afainst their cobalt backing. Damocles was one of the "notables" of the Iron Snakes, an original squad leader - I don't believe there is anything that says he could be the potential chapter master. Just a tip of the hat, with no real info. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 But the Star Phantoms are a chapter of the cursed founding and not a second founding chapter. That does not necessarily mean there are not connected. Chapters have been reconstituted with the exact same heraldry as forebearing units. The Emperor's Swords were known to have been destroyed twice (and there is even a mention of two chapters founded at the exact same founding that had the exact same heraldry that eventually met up with each other generations later). The current rendition of the Star Phantoms are believed to be from the cursed founding.... They met up when Imperial forces found 2000 dead marines bearing the same heraldry and name Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 For at least some of the Traitor Legions, they had hosts stationed on or near Terra at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy. Loken's band of merry men were mostly recruited from those hosts. Who is to say that at least some of the Second Founding chapters descend from those hosts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Theres also a Cannon Conflict mentioned where they did stuff with the Flesh Tearers (2nd founding) less than a Hundred Years after the Heresy. The above lends even more credence to what Broth Archangel mentioned from the UE book. The Star Phantoms are mentionned in Flesh of Cretacia, and the supposed cannon conflict can be explained with that reference; they had requested assistance from the Tearers, but Amit decided to pursue a foe they had been fighting and ignore (for a while) the Phantoms' request... They might have been wiped out and a new chapter bearing their heraldry founded later; I'm pretty sure, however, that the Phantoms presented in that book are not the ones that are described in full details in IA10. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 One thing to remember about "canon conflicts" with Imperial records is that the Imperium has forgotten more than it will ever re-learn. And besides, it isn't uncommon for new organizations to be named after old ones. Just look at how many things are named "spartan" or "mohawk/mohican". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Lol. I just thought about someone analyzing our own past. The battle for Troy took place in the ancient land of Kalifornia. There they fought off the Spartans of Mishigan. Only to be undone in the waning moments of the war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Lol. I just thought about someone analyzing our own past. The battle for Troy took place in the ancient land of Kalifornia. There they fought off the Spartans of Mishigan. Only to be undone in the waning moments of the war. This pleases me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piano_Sam Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 I can't believe I forgot this chapter. The Blood Ravens and their possible connection to the Thousand Sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I can't believe I forgot this chapter. The Blood Ravens and their possible connection to the Thousand Sons. Which has never been anything more than fan supposition, as far as I'm aware. To be honest, I don't like the whole 'Loyalist Chapters with traitor gene-seed' thing. To my mind it doesn't make sense, as deficiencies in the character and gene-seed were blamed for the Traitor Legions turning against the Imperium. In that blight, I find it ludicrous that the battered, scarred Imperium of the post Scouring era would be OK with setting up new Astartes Chapters with gene-stocks of tainted provenance. Plus any loyalist 'traitors' would have to survive the Heresy/Scouring in enough strength to be Chapter viable, but the general Astartes character makes to far more likely they'd be seeking out dangerous vanguard assaults, preferably against their traitor brethren, to expunge the shame of disloyalty. This is unlikely to lead to viable Strength formations once the dust settles. Now surviving individuals, like that Dantioch guys mentioned in the OP (who I know absolutely nothing about by the way), may have been incorporated into the Adeptus Astartes after the Scouring thanks to their individual records of proven loyalty and proficiency. The Chapter's gene-seed however, would still be of loyalist stock, as would most of the founding members. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Now surviving individuals, like that Dantioch guys mentioned in the OP (who I know absolutely nothing about by the way), may have been incorporated into the Adeptus Astartes after the Scouring thanks to their individual records of proven loyalty and proficiency. The Chapter's gene-seed however, would still be of loyalist stock, as would most of the founding members. This has been my thinking as well. Adding to it, while it is possible that these individuals might find that they have a place after it is all said and done, I don't believe it is possible that they will be anything more than a battle-brother. Dantioch might join a Chapter like the Scythes if the Sotha/Sothis/Swhatever reference pans out, but be the Founder of the Silver Skulls? Nah. My opinion is that they will be quietly inducted into whatever Chapter, and their history and gene-seed will die with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3749777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I think i have found evidence of another link between the Horus Heresy and a 40k Chapter. I am not sure they are 2nd founding but this seems like a good place to talk about it. The Hawk Lords. I think I have found information that links them to the Heresy era Raven Guard. I just found this in the Horus Heresy book 3 Extermination pg 138. As the Raven Lord had no intention of retiring from the fight against the arch-Traitor, he re-organized the tattered remnants of his Legion in an attempt to keep them combat capable at a strategic level. Unable to maintain the standard chapter division of the old Legion days, he instead chose to separate his surviving warriors into divisions marked by their combat specialization. The assembled tactical companies were named the Talons, assault companies became the Falcons, and the light vehicle squadrons and air support were named the Hawks. The Hawk Lords are listed in the SM 6th ed Codex under Ultra Gene stock. They are also said to.. The Hawk Lords Chapter heavily favors the use of thier varius gunships, and so are unsurprisingly undisputed masters of aerial combat. It is not unknown for pilots of other Chapters to hone their piloting skills while on secondment to the Hawk Lords' Talon wing, The Hawk Lords also have a replica of the Raven Guard icon for their own. http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081226155305/warhammer40k/images/e/e4/Hawk_Lords_Badge.png Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3777934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Gw destroyed them and said they come from ultra stock. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293895-second-founding-chapters-origins/#findComment-3778018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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