Second Founding Chapters Origins

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

pretty much as stated above.

 

up until 6th ed, they were a RG creation. then GW decided the Ultramarines were present enough in Codex Space Marines and stole the Hawk Lords.

 

WLK

[Armond]

Need more BLACK CONSUL information!!!

[Marshal Rohr]

Lol. I just thought about someone analyzing our own past. The battle for Troy took place in the ancient land of Kalifornia. There they fought off the Spartans of Mishigan. Only to be undone in the waning moments of the war.

 

One of the backstories for my Imperial Fists characters is that he comes from the warring tribes of Bama in the hellish swamp regions of south Nord Merica, where the Crimson Tide tribe is in a constant state of war with the War Eagle tribe. One sides sigil is an elephant and the other is a Tiger, and no one remembers why.

[incinerator950]

 

 

I can't believe I forgot this chapter. The Blood Ravens and their possible connection to the Thousand Sons.

Which has never been anything more than fan supposition, as far as I'm aware.

 

To be honest, I don't like the whole 'Loyalist Chapters with traitor gene-seed' thing. To my mind it doesn't make sense, as deficiencies in the character and gene-seed were blamed for the Traitor Legions turning against the Imperium. In that blight, I find it ludicrous that the battered, scarred Imperium of the post Scouring era would be OK with setting up new Astartes Chapters with gene-stocks of tainted provenance. Plus any loyalist 'traitors' would have to survive the Heresy/Scouring in enough strength to be Chapter viable, but the general Astartes character makes to far more likely they'd be seeking out dangerous vanguard assaults, preferably against their traitor brethren, to expunge the shame of disloyalty. This is unlikely to lead to viable Strength formations once the dust settles.

 

Now surviving individuals, like that Dantioch guys mentioned in the OP (who I know absolutely nothing about by the way), may have been incorporated into the Adeptus Astartes after the Scouring thanks to their individual records of proven loyalty and proficiency. The Chapter's gene-seed however, would still be of loyalist stock, as would most of the founding members.

It was more of corruption to their leadership and Lorgar and Erebus' machinations. The Primarchs and subsequently their geneseed all derive from a tainted deal the Emperor made to acquire the knowledge to make them. Even now, the only Geneseed to never have turned are the Grey Knights.

 

Plotwise GW will never go through the trouble of making a loyalist chapter from loyal traitor legion stock, so BL and FW goes thtough the trouble of using it to add character GW can't be bothered with. Which is why people accept it that way.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, that's partially incorrect. The only Chapter to have never turned are te Grey Knights, but there are some survivors of the experiments to make the Exorcists that went Renegade. They're in Death of Antagonis.

 

That and there's also the fact that no one really knows where the gene-seed actually comes from. Just the 40K propaganda that it comes directly from the Emperor.

[mc warhammer]

any custodes ever go full chaos?

[Kol Saresk]

Unknown.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

It was more of corruption to their leadership and Lorgar and Erebus' machinations. The Primarchs and subsequently their geneseed all derive from a tainted deal the Emperor made to acquire the knowledge to make them. Even now, the only Geneseed to never have turned are the Grey Knights.

 

Plotwise GW will never go through the trouble of making a loyalist chapter from loyal traitor legion stock, so BL and FW goes thtough the trouble of using it to add character GW can't be bothered with. Which is why people accept it that way.

 

I may have been unclear. It's been my understanding that, in the aftermath of the Heresy, inferior and corruptible gene-seed was one of the main explanations/sources of blame that the Imperium used to justify why half their glorious super-soldier Legions turned Traitor and attempted to rip apart the empire they'd built. Whether or not it is the actual reason for the treachery is somewhat immaterial, the point is that's what the Imperium itself believes. In that context I find it highly implausible that the High Lords would authorise creation of a Chapter using Stock they believe is sub standard and/or tainted. Hell, look how reluctant they are to use the Blood Angels line to create new Chapters, despite the lineage's glorious history and several advantages of that gene-seed.

[Zeratil]

 

I can't believe I forgot this chapter. The Blood Ravens and their possible connection to the Thousand Sons.

Which has never been anything more than fan supposition, as far as I'm aware.

 

To be honest, I don't like the whole 'Loyalist Chapters with traitor gene-seed' thing. To my mind it doesn't make sense, as deficiencies in the character and gene-seed were blamed for the Traitor Legions turning against the Imperium. In that blight, I find it ludicrous that the battered, scarred Imperium of the post Scouring era would be OK with setting up new Astartes Chapters with gene-stocks of tainted provenance. Plus any loyalist 'traitors' would have to survive the Heresy/Scouring in enough strength to be Chapter viable, but the general Astartes character makes to far more likely they'd be seeking out dangerous vanguard assaults, preferably against their traitor brethren, to expunge the shame of disloyalty. This is unlikely to lead to viable Strength formations once the dust settles.

 

Now surviving individuals, like that Dantioch guys mentioned in the OP (who I know absolutely nothing about by the way), may have been incorporated into the Adeptus Astartes after the Scouring thanks to their individual records of proven loyalty and proficiency. The Chapter's gene-seed however, would still be of loyalist stock, as would most of the founding members.

 

 

It's strongly hinted in both A Thousand Sons and the follow up short about Revuel Arvida, who amongst other things has a similar name to the first known Blood Raven chapter master Azariah Vidya. Honestly the Bloody Magpies (best curse/nickname) and the Thousand Sons probably have the most hints connecting them as they cover 2 HH stories, 2 novelisations and a bunch of video games. Which is about as 'certain' as GW ever makes such hints...

[Leif Bearclaw]

Don't know about the short story, but as far as ATS goes, "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"? That is far more likely to refer to Istvaan V and the aftermath. Ravens referring to RG, 'lost sons' referring to the IH and Salamanders, both left without Primarchs in the wake of the Massacre. 'They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied' sound a lot like Corax's failure to rebuild his Legion post massacre, but it could also refer to the IH and Salamanders struggling to survive/come to terms with the absence of their Primarchs. As for 'of blood', that's the trickiest bit I grant you, but Corax hardly leaves Istvaan unbloodied. So we have two words that may refer to the Ravens, in a passage that otherwise makes much more sense as a reference to Istvaan. For example, if the fanon is right, who are the lost sons? How is their salvation and knowledge denied?

 

That doesn't add up to 'strong hints' to me, hence why it remains fanon, along with all other Traitor gene-seed loyalist Chapters. For what I consider strong hints, I'd propose FWs allusions to the Charcarodons being RG successors.

[Kol Saresk]

Don't know about the short story, but as far as ATS goes, "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"? That is far more likely to refer to Istvaan V and the aftermath. Ravens referring to RG, 'lost sons' referring to the IH and Salamanders, both left without Primarchs in the wake of the Massacre. 'They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied' sound a lot like Corax's failure to rebuild his Legion post massacre, but it could also refer to the IH and Salamanders struggling to survive/come to terms with the absence of their Primarchs. As for 'of blood', that's the trickiest bit I grant you, but Corax hardly leaves Istvaan unbloodied. So we have two words that may refer to the Ravens, in a passage that otherwise makes much more sense as a reference to Istvaan. For example, if the fanon is right, who are the lost sons? How is their salvation and knowledge denied?

 

That doesn't add up to 'strong hints' to me, hence why it remains fanon, along with all other Traitor gene-seed loyalist Chapters. For what I consider strong hints, I'd propose FWs allusions to the Charcarodons being RG successors.

Honestly, I never put much thought into that prophecy but I do remember Laurie Goulding specifically saying that it did not refer to the Blood Ravens. And the interpretation you just provided, goes a long to filling the gap on how that prophecy could be considered to not refer to the Blood Ravens.

 

As for the short story with Khârn, all it is, is a Corvidae who got stranded on Prospero after going back to see what happened when he and his patrol fleet were ordered away. He eventually joins up with the Scars when they come a calling to see what happened.

 

As you can guess, the fanon is that he becomes the eventual patriarch of the Blood Ravens.

[Piano_Sam]

I think you are the only person I've ever seen not believe those are strong hints. It's really whatever to me, live and let live and all that. I felt that the list sons referred to those TS who weren't at Prospero during the fall. It doesn't really matter though.

 

Don't know about the short story, but as far as ATS goes, "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"? That is far more likely to refer to Istvaan V and the aftermath. Ravens referring to RG, 'lost sons' referring to the IH and Salamanders, both left without Primarchs in the wake of the Massacre. 'They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied' sound a lot like Corax's failure to rebuild his Legion post massacre, but it could also refer to the IH and Salamanders struggling to survive/come to terms with the absence of their Primarchs. As for 'of blood', that's the trickiest bit I grant you, but Corax hardly leaves Istvaan unbloodied. So we have two words that may refer to the Ravens, in a passage that otherwise makes much more sense as a reference to Istvaan. For example, if the fanon is right, who are the lost sons? How is their salvation and knowledge denied?

That doesn't add up to 'strong hints' to me, hence why it remains fanon, along with all other Traitor gene-seed loyalist Chapters. For what I consider strong hints, I'd propose FWs allusions to the Charcarodons being RG successors.

Honestly, I never put much thought into that prophecy but I do remember Laurie Goulding specifically saying that it did not refer to the Blood Ravens. And the interpretation you just provided, goes a long to filling the gap on how that prophecy could be considered to not refer to the Blood Ravens.

As for the short story with Khârn, all it is, is a Corvidae who got stranded on Prospero after going back to see what happened when he and his patrol fleet were ordered away. He eventually joins up with the Scars when they come a calling to see what happened.

As you can guess, the fanon is that he becomes the eventual patriarch of the Blood Ravens.

 

Could you provide the Laurie Goulding quote?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, it'll take some digging through the First Expedition, but I'll see if I can find it.

[Zeratil]

I know Laurie has been clearing up a lot of the inconsistencies and from what ADB has said there aren't going to be any more Ksons/Blood Raven references (I assume because they've just become to obvious, particularly in C.S. Goto's novelizations) but prophecies can refer to more than one thing, and Graham wrote both ATS and the old IA article for the Blood Ravens, I find it hard to believe that he wasn't aware of how the hint in ATS would be initially read. I know from reading First Expedition that Laurie at least doesn't like the KSons/Blood Ravens talk, but personally I am fairly sure that internally at THQ at the very least (and probably some people at GW they ran stuff by) the connection between the two was pretty much set. If GW Publishing and Laurie want to retcon that because they've decided they don't like it, then fair enough I guess. Personally I always liked the idea, but agree that it went the wrong side of wink wink nudge nudge with the novelizations. 

[Kol Saresk]

I din't know, if Gav Thorpe can write the scene in Deliverance Lost where Corax and the Emps talk about Vorax being lucky number XIX and te Emps being so sad and sorrowful that he says he'd rather not talk about it he(Gav thorpe) be surprised that most readers read it as a Lost Primarchs reference, I think Graham McNeill can get away with "unintetionally" making a BR reference.

[Nehekhare]

Crimson Fists: Alexis Pollux (IF) [Novel The Crimson Fist]

Red Talons: Iron Father Autek Mor [iH] [Morragul Clan Badge and Strike Cruiser Red Talon, see HH3]

 

Minotaurs are propably either World Eaters or Iron Warriors Geneseed, too.

 

and then at least every second UM survivor of the shadow crusade got his own chapter...

[Zeratil]

It can be 'Unintentional' all he wants. I KNOW THE TRUTH, YOU HEAR ME MCNEILL?! I KNOW THE TRUTH

As for other connections I like the Charcarodon Astra references they put in the Raven Guard section, the predation fleets, Tyberios' helmet etc.

[depthcharge12]

Lol. I just thought about someone analyzing our own past. The battle for Troy took place in the ancient land of Kalifornia. There they fought off the Spartans of Mishigan. Only to be undone in the waning moments of the war.

 

I am personally an avid reader of the battles fought between the noble Behr tribe from the windy hive sumps of Chi and the despicable Green Pack from the northerly wastes of Swissconsin.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Lucretius Corvo of the Novamarines is in the latest event anthology whose name escapes me.

 

Tulian Aquila of the Doom Eagles appears in that same anthology and in audio drama Honour to the Dead. 

 

Laurie Goulding may not like the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens link but I'm not sure Chris Wraight feels the same way.

[Hyaenidae]

Not only do I fully believe that the Marines Malevolent hail from the Iron Warriors, I'm guessing that Kyr Vhalen will be their founder. 

 

Face looks like it met a meat grinder. Loyal to the Imperium by circumstance. Cusses a lot. Concept of defeating an ambush is plowing his ship through another ship.

 

Sounds about right for a Marne Malevolent.

 

Also excited, as this might be FW's way of setting things up for a Scouring series....  :D

[depthcharge12]

Also excited, as this might be FW's way of setting things up for a Scouring series....  :D

 

Let's hope it's in our lifetime brother

[Marshal Rohr]

A scouring series is almost inevitable at this point. I need mah Templars to be cool again.