Brother Talon Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hey, while I've been playing on and off for about two years now, something has been constantly nagging at me. A lot of gameshops in my area have their own rules, some mix GW, some use full GW. Does anyone have a preference to certain rules, because I'm trying to figure out which works best. While this tends be slightly off-putting, a major issue seems to be that they all agree on having lists built using Army Builder. This has caused me problems, as over time certain armies have been heavily nerfed, or flat out under-powered with changes implemented by this program (I can easily list a few things done to BT's on Army Build that fill me with seething rage). I'm in need of an honest opinion. Should I build my army based off of what is in the books (Codex: Black Templars and IA) or Army Builder? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I would say go for the Codex brother, unless your gaming group has house ruling that they feel are mandatory. Unfortunately, if you don't feel comfortable with their way to play the game, you might have to find yourself a new place to play :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3749574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The only lists that are raw legal are those made from GW/Forgeworld 40k approved products. I have seen plenty of times that army builder has made mistakes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3749575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I rarely have seen mistakes with army builder. For the most part the people the write for it do a great job, but they haven't updated it for 7th yet. As for a side note I tend not to trust most peoples lists that are written instead of using programs like army builder. Back to topic the group I play with uses most of GW's rules with few changes that are usually discussed before the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3749640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Army Builder is not changing your BT or rules with the BT list. It may be outdated and of course does not include 7th edition files right now, but it does not nerf or make armies underpowered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3750150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Army Builder is not changing your BT or rules with the BT list. It may be outdated and of course does not include 7th edition files right now, but it does not nerf or make armies underpowered. Army builder has been known to 'interpret' the rules, and make decisions that didnt match up with rulings from GW, or any tournament with a FAQ before. Not to mention the fact those files can be modified without to much issue, which opens all sorts of holes to cheating- most people see an army builder print out and just assume its accurate. In the end though, your codex and a print out of its FAQ/Errata should be all you need. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3750189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSocks Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As for a side note I tend not to trust most peoples lists that are written instead of using programs like army builder. I can't believe this is a problem, isn't this what we all did before Army Builder? When did we get to a stage where we can't trust our opponent to bring an army to the table that's fair and correct. I agree with Grey Mage - a codex/fw book and an Errata is what we started with, and at the end of the day if someone's upset with the fact you don't want to use army builder then I think they're kind of missing the point of the game (they're probably the type of people who go find a rulebook/codex every 5 minutes because they're so desperate not to lose they can't accept they're wrong) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3750193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 From an official standpoint, nothing made by a 3rd party manufacturer / software developer is official. What is official is the Rulebook, the Codices, the Supplements and the GW produced FAQs. That's it... I usually write out my army lists in MS-Word and print them in advance. That way, my opponent only needs to ask and I'll hand it over for them to check. Why would I pay for a bit of software that is full of mistakes and does an inferior job when compared to a pen and paper (or word processing program)? Even the GW produced list-building software (in the SM e-codex) doesn't match up with the actual Codex (and FAQs) properly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3750326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 My handwriting is terrible in print and apparently no one knows how to read cursive so I just use Battlescribe and then compare it to the codex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3751026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Aye, handwriting and shorthand can be a problem with handwritten lists- Damiens printing a typed up version is a good standby for tournaments Ive found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3751191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Talon Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 I appreciate all the feedback friends, I truly do. Armed with a bit of better ideas and knowledge, it's time for this Templar to start hitting the tables again... ...with pure, unmoderated ZEAL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3752109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozshock Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 ive found that Army Builder for me has been largely accurate...i dont know where you guys come form that its been wrong...(im grey knights btw) the only issue now with army builder is that they have to wait a month or a bit more to update to the new rules...so 7th update should be just around the corner, and the codex updates...i know AM is updated for me so its not far behind the curve...orcs wont be there yet but its not far away as far as using AB for tournaments...i know my TO goes over every list that he recieves and cross checks it with the army books...even if it is created with army builder...makes it damn sure there are no mistakes...actually i know one mistake witht he inquisition, they allow you to take a single HQ as an ally, but AB still reckons you need 1 troop, but anyhoo AB is enough as a guide...adds the points up automatically, and is correct as of right now for me...but its not hard tolist it out in word or in hand writing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3752360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The problems I saw with AB was with the space wolf codex and many of the older codices in the past. Also, I hear that it doesn't allow more than one bloodthirster. It is usually small things like that, but they do add up. More importantly army builder is not even a gw product, therefore it is by definition not a be all end all rule set. Any written list built purely from the codex (and properly built) is correct. Army builder is usually correct, but not always. As such, I very much agree with Ozshock on many points, and I want to emphasize that the TO going over every list cross checked against the army book is the right thing to do in any competitive environment (and one of the reasons 3.5 chaos often led to interesting results). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3752586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The rulebook and codexes are the only real rules. Armybuilder is just a faulty 3rd party tool of laziness and convenience, nothing more. If they insist, then don't play with such jerks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3752697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiearcher Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 The problems I saw with AB was with the space wolf codex and many of the older codices in the past. Also, I hear that it doesn't allow more than one bloodthirster. It is usually small things like that, but they do add up. More importantly army builder is not even a gw product, therefore it is by definition not a be all end all rule set. Any written list built purely from the codex (and properly built) is correct. Army builder is usually correct, but not always. As such, I very much agree with Ozshock on many points, and I want to emphasize that the TO going over every list cross checked against the army book is the right thing to do in any competitive environment (and one of the reasons 3.5 chaos often led to interesting results). while adding more than one BT may throw up an error you can still over ride it add it anyway. i do that when making armies using multiple detachments that army builder dosent realy recognise easily i use it to quickly add up points and see the changes i make rather than "organise" the army and the detachments, and for that the pricing on units is accurate and functions like a constantly up to date calculator for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293961-trouble-with-game-lists-and-rulings/#findComment-3774877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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