Captain Tycho - worth it?

[t-dog1996]

So I was thinking of including Captain Tycho in my Blood Angels army but I'm not certain if he's worth it. At the moment I'm very much edging towards the side of yes he is worth it. This is for a few reasons.

 

1. Combi-meltas are useful

2. Ignoring armour saves is useful

3. Entire army being leadership ten is useful

4. Having a boltgun that can wound, say, a greater daemon of nurgle on a roll of 2+ is useful

 

So like I say, I like him and want to include him as an HQ choice alongside a Librarian. I'd just like to hear some other opinions on this. Thanks in advance.

[Tasteslikechicken]

Don't forget he grants preferred enemy (orks) to the unit he joins.

[t-dog1996]

So you think he's worth it then?

[Tasteslikechicken]

He has always performed in games for me. Almost killed Ghaz in combat.

[MrSocks]

He's been standard in my list for a while but I don't really know why. (I haven't played my blood angels in a long time (5th) so I'm rusty on all the choices.

-He's cheap (for a special character)

-He's no slouch in CC with his ignore saves

-Strikes at I value (a lot can be said for that now that you need a power axe to get through his armour. (think he's 2+)

-Monstrous Creature is sometimes nice for opportunistic kills

I have to say that I always take DC Tycho because he's more fun even though you can't put him in a squad (and if you don't the sternguard ammo is kind of wasted).

Relentless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain and the extra stats offset the disadvantages as long as you play smart with him. And FC offsets his low strength value in the first round of combat, given you can shoot too means you almost always get a good start to what is hopefully a short and bloody affair, also helps with damaging vehicles.

Edit: I usually choose him or Gabriel Seth, what's better than a giant chainsword?

[Toomanyprojects]

Personally I prefer to take Seth: I've tried out Tycho and be never seems to make his points back in my games.

 

I personally think the extra wound and five s8 (s9 with a nearby sang priest) attacks on the charge outweighs the dead mans hand. And none of my regular opponents play using Orks, so that rule doesn't help me either.

 

Have a game or two with a stand in model and see how he performs: that should tell you if Tycho is for you

[MrSocks]

Personally I prefer to take Seth: I've tried out Tycho and be never seems to make his points back in my games.

 

I personally think the extra wound and five s8 (s9 with a nearby sang priest) attacks on the charge outweighs the dead mans hand. And none of my regular opponents play using Orks, so that rule doesn't help me either.

 

Have a game or two with a stand in model and see how he performs: that should tell you if Tycho is for you

 

 

I have the same conundrum, the advantages of Tycho:

2+ save (I think?) - massive advantage in this edition given the AP power weapons

Ignores armour saves in combat - I play a lot of space marines and this even though Seth can instant death most adversaries, most of them also have 2+ armour save.

Feel No Pain - DC Tycho has this, depends if you spend points on Sang Priests

Relentless - with sternguard ammo it's always useful.

 

Advantages of Seth:

-Big bloody sword - Str 8 instant killing is always a good way to kill someone's favorite character. plus it's easy to wound.

-Slightly Cheaper

-Independent Character - speaks for itself

-Underestimated every damn time - He's almost always ignored because he doesn't have a power weapon.

-His "everytime you roll a 1 I hit you in the face" rule.

-He's far more fun.

 

On the balance of it, it depends on what I'm running in the rest of my army, Seth is a good all round leader who excess against single characters and mobs alike, Tycho is more durable and since he's out there by himself can draw fire, or hold up a squad while he kills them. For me, They're both enjoyable and fun and I tend to interchange them in my lists.

[Sans Mercy]

Advantages of Seth:

-Big bloody sword -RENDING Str 8 instant killing is always a good way to kill someone's favorite character. plus it's easy to wound.

 

Fixed!

[JamesI]

I prefer Tycho to Seth.  Team Tycho up with Corbulo and its a pretty fun pair.

[knife&fork]

I'm gonna try out that razor spam list with Tycho (discussed in a different thread) tomorrow. Mostly I'm after an HQ that doesn't break the bank like Mephiston but also doesn't keel over in a stiff breeze like a librarian. And what's the point of paying that much for a single warp charge? Tycho doesn't cost a lot more than the reclusiarch or a kitted captain. 

 

List looks like this:

 

Tycho

3*Furioso dreads (Frag cannon and melta, drop pods)

6*Assault squads (5 man, flamers, TL-assault cannon razorbacks)

2*Devastator squads (4 missile launchers, TL-Heavy flamer razorbacks with dozerblade)

 

That's 23 scoring units, 12 with 'objective secured'. Huge number of small squads that will hopefully take time to kill off thanks to potential fearless and that ld10 from rites of battle.

[Shaezus]

That looks good. Can't see that list being tabled even in 7 turns. Only downside will be in purge the alien.

[knife&fork]

Just came back from that test game. Played SoB with Inquisitor allies, usually difficult for me as they are very strong up close and I like to be up close.

I won, 15-8 in VPs on turn 6.

Game would have been more close but I rolled extremely well on two crucial shooting attacks on turn 4.

A lone assault marine with a flamer killed 8 henchmen in his semi CC deathstar after they were bunched up, having killed one of my devastator units.

The remaining inquisitor was instagibbed by a single krak-grenade thrown by the sergeant!

200+ pts killed by a flamer and krak grenade... insane

In the same turn I also managed to get 10 repentia, a priest and his warlord under a frag cannon template, killing them all. Repentia are extremely dangerous with a character to tank, priest to give them rerolls and mounted in an inquisitorial land raider. Not to mention he had that improved 'shield of faith' warlord trait for the 5+ invul.

The good!

Tycho didn't give up the warlord point and saved me a couple of times with that army wide ld10.

MSU makes it difficult to kill everything in time

Good redundancy gave the opponent no right or wrong target

Lots of pressure with fast vehicles and pods.

The bad!

I had 23 scoring units but spent the first 3 turns not drawing a single 'capture objective' card

Deployment zone got extremely crowded, very turn 1 dependent

Assault cannons are very unpredictable

The majority of weapons cannot instakill vehicles, demeching mounted enemies takes time

Tycho spent the entire game hiding behind a bunker

All in all I think it works ok.

Tycho makes sure your troops are either fearless or ld10, quite powerful with that many units.

Something I felt was missing was more melta. I faced a single landraider in this list and it really ate into my firepower. Need to shuffle around some points to give every squad a melta bomb or think of some other way to get better at dealing with heavy mech.

I don't think replacing the flamers with meltaguns is the answer as the assault squads need them to make up for their number and my weakness for massed, cheap infantry.

[MrSocks]

Consider switching out the assault cannons on 2 of your 5 razorbacks for twin-linked las if you're missing antitank.

 

An alternative is to put your AC/LC razorbacks with your devastators and the heavy flamers 2 of your units of assault marines then give your assault marines meltas, that way they still have the punch of the flamer, but then I guess you're missing the assault cannon.

[knife&fork]

Consider switching out the assault cannons on 2 of your 5 razorbacks for twin-linked las if you're missing antitank.

 

An alternative is to put your AC/LC razorbacks with your devastators and the heavy flamers 2 of your units of assault marines then give your assault marines meltas, that way they still have the punch of the flamer, but then I guess you're missing the assault cannon.

 

The TL-HF razors ran empty, so shifting who buys which transport would end up pretty much exactly the same in terms of fire power. I could drop a missile launchers from each dev squad to get points for meltas over flamers but then I'd start to have 'right' and 'wrong' units for my opponent to target. 

 

If we could take TL-multi melta on our razorbacks (maybe there's some FW rules for that?) I'd be all over it but I don't think the loss of volume of fire is worth it to trade the ACs for LCs.

I should probably use a completely different unit for my Anti tank needs as I have too many razors as it is. Perhaps dropping down to 5 TLAC razorback troops to get some necessary upgrades? 

[Remtek]

LD 10 on everyone units seems aweseome with this type of list. Tycho seems pretty strong in challenges as well. Running a captain as HQ gives the list some style too!

 

In regards to Land Raider

One TLAC will do more pens and glances compared to TLLC vs AV14, but both are extreme longshots on taking them down. Rending on TLAC is 12+d3 and LC pens on a 6, both longshots. 

 

Can get lucky with meltabombs, but it still will need quite a few to take down a LR. What about some multimelta attack bikes, or combine it with a meltabomb or two? They kinda fit with msu being fast and all that and easy to hide behind all your mech. 

 

Theres always the option of ignore the raider, but i can see how that would be annoying. 

[MrSocks]

I also run a razorback heavy list and I have to say the odd lascannon in the mix is useful but I also feel your pain about losing the additional firepower. Also with regards to who buys what, it was more a case of they'd have the Flamers available on their doorstep and the razorbacks with the extra firepower (who are assigned to the Devs) would be a bit more free to assign fire where it's needed most.

 

It would be nice to have TL multi melta, I think there's a FW variant with multi melta: yes: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MULTI-MELTA-RAZORBACK-CONVERSION-KIT.html

 

I would consider swapping out an assault squad and razorback or Furiouso in Drop pod for AT: Possibly standard Dread w/multimelta + Melta in drop pod or something along those lines?

 

Edit: Remtek Yes, that's true I think:

TLAC
4 Shots @ 3+

16/6 hits

reroll 4/6*2/3=8/18= roughly 1/3

Therefore 18/6 hits = roughly 3 hits on average.

 

6, followed by 5 or 6 to penetrate, 1/18 penetrating therefore from each salvo (1/6 penetrates)

ap 1 therefore 5 or 6 to blow = 1/54 to blow per hit.

3/54 chance of blowing up.

1/16 chance of blowing up per turn

 

TLLC

1 shot @ 3+

2/3 hits

1/3*2/3 = 2/9

8/9 hits = roughly 1 hit on average.

 

6 to penetrate. therefore 1/6 penetrating

Ap 2 therefore 6 to blow = 1/36 to blow per hit.

1/36 chance of blowing up per turn.

[knife&fork]

LD 10 on everyone units seems aweseome with this type of list. Tycho seems pretty strong in challenges as well. Running a captain as HQ gives the list some style too!

In regards to Land Raider

One TLAC will do more pens and glances compared to TLLC vs AV14, but both are extreme longshots on taking them down. Rending on TLAC is 12+d3 and LC pens on a 6, both longshots.

Can get lucky with meltabombs, but it still will need quite a few to take down a LR. What about some multimelta attack bikes, or combine it with a meltabomb or two? They kinda fit with msu being fast and all that and easy to hide behind all your mech.

Theres always the option of ignore the raider, but i can see how that would be annoying.

Yeah, melta bombs will also suffer from the assault squads not being mounted in assault vehicles. I could take out the devastator squads and switch 2 razors to land raiders. You'll miss out on some of the redundancy and those sweet missiles. on the other hand you gain 4-TLLC shots and 2 multimeltas on a very durable platform that can screen all the remaining razors in case you go 2nd.

I also run a razorback heavy list and I have to say the odd lascannon in the mix is useful but I also feel your pain about losing the additional firepower. Also with regards to who buys what, it was more a case of they'd have the Flamers available on their doorstep and the razorbacks with the extra firepower (who are assigned to the Devs) would be a bit more free to assign fire where it's needed most.

It would be nice to have TL multi melta, I think there's a FW variant with multi melta: yes: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MULTI-MELTA-RAZORBACK-CONVERSION-KIT.html

I would consider swapping out an assault squad and razorback or Furiouso in Drop pod for AT: Possibly standard Dread w/multimelta + Melta in drop pod or something along those lines?

Edit: Remtek Yes, that's true I think:

TLAC

4 Shots @ 3+

16/6 hits

reroll 4/6*2/3=8/18= roughly 1/3

Therefore 18/6 hits = roughly 3 hits on average.

6, followed by 5 or 6 to penetrate, 1/18 penetrating therefore from each salvo (1/6 penetrates)

ap 1 therefore 5 or 6 to blow = 1/54 to blow per hit.

3/54 chance of blowing up.

1/16 chance of blowing up per turn

TLLC

1 shot @ 3+

2/3 hits

1/3*2/3 = 2/9

8/9 hits = roughly 1 hit on average.

6 to penetrate. therefore 1/6 penetrating

Ap 2 therefore 6 to blow = 1/36 to blow per hit.

1/36 chance of blowing up per turn.

The Assault cannon is always counted as base AP vs vehicles (as rending only improves AP when you roll to wound), so there's 0 chance of an 'explode' result. All other results are good too, but you'll always have to chew through every hull point to kill non-open topped vehicles.

How do you run your razor spam list? I've considered a regular marine detachment to save some points, but 'fast' is just sooooo good

[appiah4]

Tycho trumps Seth simply by the cool factor of using his bare hand to punch through terminators.

[Toomanyprojects]

I think that I prefer Seth mostly because he fits the character of my flastearers a little better than Tycho and the fact that he can chomp trough hordes of enemies and then kill their general.

 

In my last game in three turns he disposed of five scarab bases, ten necron warriors and imhotek. Imhotek initially survived Seth's assault with a single wound left only to be nutted to death when he rolled a 1 to hit.

 

Don't underestimate Seth's capacities. He's good. An lest we forget, that in the fluff even Orks run from a Fleshtearer charge :)