Raven wing

[arizonajirt]

I know I'm gonna catch a lot of flak on this one.

 

I have it in my head to build a double force org raven wing army. How viable is a pure ravenwing force?

[Prot]

I used to run pure RW in 6th and it was definitely potent. I don't anymore. I think it's quite a bit less competitive because we could already get very good bonuses to Jink, but now it's 4 plus out of the box, but the penalty is severe, and it hits everything, not just bikes, but speeders too.

 

Mixed wing works best now. Inter support between units is king. Relying too heavily on one style of play was the way of 6th and almost certain death in 7th. Simply put, I think 7th put a nail in the coffin of my personal pure RW lists. I truly believe I can trump all of those lists now by mixing wings up.

[arizonajirt]

Damn, I was hoping I wouldn't hear something like that. I personally hate painting deathwing termies. That's what turned me off to the dark angels when the new kits were released. But that was a few years ago too. I've never actually ran a bike list or even speeders before. They just took up slots I used assault marines in.

The overall list I was looking at would be Samuel on his jet bike, 3 libbys on bikes, 12 full ravenwing squads, 6 full black knight squads, a rw command squad and 6 of the land speeder vengence.

Lots of plasma down range with that list, seems fast, but like I said, never ran bikes.

From what I'm hearing from you, half ravenwing and half deathwing is appropriate and better to run?

[Prot]

Well not necessarily just more bodies with objective secured. Two poding Greenwing squads (that's 4 super scoring units) make a huge difference.

 

The thing with the bikes is you end up with a small list very vast. Speeders, bikes, HQ's, and often the Dark Shroud start to shrink the bodies on the table. That wasn't too terribly bad when you used the Dakka banner to make up for it, but now the offensive power of the army can be severely stunted if you are forced to jink a lot.

 

It's not just the jink change though. It's the other codexes that have come since that have made bikes hared and harder: Nids with dual/triple Mawlocs (no save/no cover) the Astra Militarum Death Strike Missiles (no save/no cover), Tau, Eldar, etc etc. Every one of those codexes have made it harder, and harder.

 

Now add in that if you jink you're stuck snap firing. In my personal experience it has made pure Ravenwing seriously difficult in competitive environments. But that doesn't mean you can't make it work.

[arizonajirt]

I definitely don't play competitive. I'm a fluff player. Sometimes it just ends up that my fluff lists are competitive with raven guard.

Behind all this I'm looking at what I want to do for etl 4 next year, so I am trying to plan Thai out. Looks like I may join the dark angels with a ravenwing force. Got 9 months to plan and stock up.

[Darkangeldentist]

I have played Ravenwing in 7th and still find them fun to play. The sacred standard of devastation is still awe inspiringly potent with them and with the regular ravenwing taking up troop slots we have more space for black knights and even more grenade launchers. (Ravenwing command squads also help here and should priority purchases.)

 

Whilst I completely agree with Prot that the change to jink had a negative impact on Ravenwing competitively it has not ruined my fun or effectiveness with them. I don't run completely pure Ravenwing any more since I've found it so powerful to include a unit of Deathwing terminators or knights to help divert attention from the bikes. I do think pure Ravenwing still has a place and works well enough to win games but they can make for extremely one-sided and short games. Currently Ravenwing have surprised me for how quickly the game reaches what feels like the late stages of a battle by turn 2 or 3. A lot depends on first turn and how effective your first round of shooting goes. Ravenwing are best used as an aggressive army and when it works, it can be amazing, when it doesn't...it's almost as impressive but the other way.

 

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions.

[arizonajirt]

So pretty much the consensus is that pure ravenwing is a win or loose army, not really much the close win kind of army. That it really needs to be mixed with deathwing to be viable these days. I guess it could work. I didn't take any elites in my little list. That would give me space for 30 deathwing in there, 60 if I double force org

[SvenONE]

I still assert RW is the strongest aspect of our codex.  There's a LOT to like about it, as DAD said, the SoD is awesome and really makes this list shine.  Black Knights, Darkshroud, Darktalon if you so choose, Rad Grenades (and Stasis), and now scoring Landspeeders from our RWAS, outflanking MMABs.  It's without a doubt fun.

 

My only suggestion when it comes to running that list is to make sure you do the best possible job to position yourself accordingly.  Block as much LOS as you can.  Also, try to avoid PGs on bikes, meltas/flamers are better.  When it comes to equipping sargeants: Combi-Weapon, Melta Bombs, Power Sword, Vet upgrade is usually the priority I find has worked out the best.

 

Also remember putting Sammael in a regular RWAS gives them Skilled Rider, it also takes some of the target priority of a command squad.

 

Avoid purchasing the champion at all costs.  His model is cool and thats about it.  Psyker Bikers are also good.

[SnakeChisler]

Psyker biker is tops with RavenHq squad + PFG apothecary & champion for 5 points he avoids challenges

 

Been running dual psyker bikers which is fun but some backup from something evan more scary than ravenwing knights crashing into you normally sorts out the target priority dual vindicators or dwk is my normal route

 

Been trying out other psychic disciplines as well, shooting from a bike with beams & templates has been a real boon, that pyromancy beam is awesome and a stock heavy flamer power is proving really useful, tried telepathy as well but its hard to get useful stuff

[Brother dean]

Damn, I was hoping I wouldn't hear something like that. I personally hate painting deathwing.

Paint them black and call it a 30k themed list..

[arizonajirt]

Thank you everyone for the input on the list idea. I'm thinking of doing the ravenwing, plus adding deathwing knights in the elite section. Then eventually doing a deathwing list, but pop mortis dreads and mortis contemptors in elites. Will be a pricey army. But it could be fun.

Only thing I want to avoid is painting the standard dw colors. The bone termies turn me off.

What successor chapters are there? I can't find color schemes for ravenwing and deathwing for the successor chapters

[GreyCrow]

While I'm not very knowledgeable about all the specifics or opportunities of Ravenwing units (you Dark Angels keep your secrets close !), I feel that the way it's played needs to change in 7th. I've got a good friend who plays White Scars with pretty much a full bike army and it was a very, very strong build in 6th indeed, and he has to play it differently now. And playing with Raven Guard scouting I can chime in a little from a Tactical standpoint !

 

But that was because Jink was very overpowered, Eldars and Tau have lost their edge a little as well.

 

I think a full Ravenwing army is viable. Before, a bike army like the Scars or Ravenwing could be very aggressive and not care much. Full scout ahead and not play with cover at all. That maximized both the survivability and the effectiveness through positinning. Now, these armies must be played differently.

Very mobile armies are not meant only for charging the enemy right ahead, at least not anymore. It's a distinct ability they have, but it's far from the automatic tactic anyone should employ every turn now that Jink lost its power. What very mobile armies bring on the table is to offer you the capability to engage to pick your fight, control the flow of the frontline and most importantly choose when the real fights should occur. This is further reinforced by Hit and Run, which is an amazing tactical ability. Like Scouts and many other abilities, Space Marines armies from all Codexes do not HAVE to maximize their efficiency, but use them when it's advantageous. That's the pleasure of rolling with a generalist army :)

 

A RW army has a myriad of deployment options if you go with Bikes + Landspeeders. You can deploy regularly, scout, outflank and deep strike pretty much all of your units. I believe the RW Knights have Skilled Riders as well, which allow you to basically use cover terrain pieces like infantry for shooting and get a better Jink for when you prepare an Assault rather than shooting. Regular RW squadrons will lose some of their shooting capability or mobility compared to Black Knights, but they can use their mobility to get in or out of range and draw the enemy to move towards them. Land Speeders can Deep Strike, which is awesome for the psychological effect, even with long range weapons. Having 3 Land Speeders Typhoon or Tornadoes in your deployment zone is something you will have to dedicated firepower towards. And anti-tank firepower, which will not be shooting at your Bike squadrons. Which means you have to Jink less.

 

Overall, like with Scars I don't think 7th is the death of the Raven Wing, it's just got to play differnetly. Like any Elite army with base units costing much than the regular Troops of the Codex, the Captain has to play them extremely smartly to take advantage every turn (and not just during the first 2) of their unique capabilities.

[johnyocum]

The 'canon' successors use the same scheme for ALL companies of the chapter.  Those are found in C:DA, in the pages of photos.  It only shows one guy from each of the 6 'canon' successors.

 

(I use 'canon' because those are the only ones listed in C:DA.  That is NOT saying that you can't do your own.)

 

However, nowhere does it say that when you make your own successor that you can't do your 2nd Company just like the Ravenwing and then the 1st Company some other color and then the rest of the Chapter a 3rd color.

[Brother dean]

Yes.  All successors use the same color as the main companies, they just use the Raven/Deathwing rules.  Pick one you dont mind and go..  AoV are the all blacks...

[arizonajirt]

I have 3 companies or raven guard and about 150 black Templars, so I am trying to avoid black of possible. Also have grey knights, so want to avoid silver. What about that one chapter that is half green and half white. Would their deathwing/ravenwing be chapter colors?

[Brother dean]

Thought you didnt want to do Bone...    Yes, I've seen some bikes in that scheme.  Consider making your own colors..   

 

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Angels-of-Redemption-Terminator-Squad-II-300537929

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?155347-Angels-of-Redemption/page3

[arizonajirt]

Don't want to do bone. But white I could give a shot. There were 2 successor chapters I can't find colors for, the lions sable and persecutors of darkness. Everything says that the colors are unknown and the lions sable was destroyed. That may be someone I can play with since the colors are what I want them to be. But I do prefer cannon opposed to DIY chapters

But the angels of redemption are on my list of something I could be interested in.