Proposed weapon

[Rasclomalum]

Ripper Pattern Chainsword

Crafted by the hereteks of the Dark Mechanicus, the Ripper Chainsword was developed as an answer to the generally tougher armour worn by Imperial loyalist. Based upon previous patterns of chainsword or chainaxe, the weapon sports a high-powered engine with similar performance to an Eviscerator, yet is compact enough to fit a regular sized chain weapon. The ultra-sharp adamantium teeth of this weapon are able to cut their way through the thickest armour and has become a favoured weapon with duelists.

Profile: S:User, AP2

Suggested price: 25 points (sorcerers may upgrade their Force weapon to a Ripper Force weapon for 10 points) . Possibly a 10 point upgrade for models in Terminator armour, replacing the stock power weapon.

So, brings AP2 at initiative without having to be a Khorne Axelord. Makes good use of the Champion of Chaos rule. Pricing seems fair - same cost as a Power Fist, but sacrifices instagib strength and ability to worry vehicles for the ability to strike at I. Indistinguishable in performance compared to a Power Sword against 3+ and worse (indeed, for 25 points one could argue that S+1 or Shred should be part of its profile, but I'd rather be conservative with ideas I like).

Anyway, should bolster Chaos in the assault phase in a shooty edition. Also doesn't require any new bitz, chainswords are already on the sprues.

Whatcha say?

[totgeboren]

GW seem to have really gone out of their way make sure that Ap2 cc weapons don't strike at I. Also, they have put more emphasis on stuff being easily visually distinguishable, and as an opponent I don't know how to distinguish this weapon from a normal chainsword.

 

Also, why would anyone take a powersword instead of this weapon?

 

I mean, if you compare a powersword, axe, maul, fist and claw, they all have their ups and downs. The closest are Fist and Axe, the Fist gives better S but both costs more and importantly doesn't give +1 attack unless paired with another specialist weapon, meaning the model will by definition have to shell out a lot more points to get that +1 attack and will also lose his shooting attack.

Same with Claw and Sword, getting an extra attack is really costly for the better weapon.

 

Even though Ap2 at I seems to be a nono for marines, this sword could work if it was bigger than a normal chainsword and also two-handed. That way it has a drawback and is also visually distinct.

[Rasclomalum]

Fair points.

WYSIWYG: Mostly a matter of communication. How do you know a Black Legion Chaos Lord is packing a Power Fist or the Hand of Darkness? What distinguishes a Force Weapon from a Power Weapon? Can you always tell which model is an Aspiring Champion with a Power Sword, a Chaos Lord with a Power Sword or a Sorcerer with a Force Sword? For that matter, are all Relic Blades readily distinguishable from power swords or power axes? And then there's Khorne terminator lords wielding either stock power axes or Axes of Blind Fury. Then there's Frost Weapons, where Frost Swords are established as high-powered chainswords in the fluff...

WYSIWYG isn't necessarily such a big concern, though the sheer proliferation of chainswords IS a problem here.


Power Swords: might as well ask why anybody uses a Power Sword as it is. Lightning Claws tend to be superior even if you lose that extra attack. Also, there is the matter of points - is it worth the extra 10 points if it's no different than a Power Sword against 3+?

I know GW has gone out of their way to remove AP2 at initiative, but with assault armies being what they are in 7th with random charge ranges and few reliable means of transport for assault squads we might just do with some extra punch.

[minigun762]

When I think upgraded chainsword I first think of something with shred and maybe AP5 but that just gives you a weak lightning claw.

 

Maybe it forces rerolls against successful armor saves?

[Rasclomalum]

Not sure if that fills a gap. 

 

 

When I think upgraded chainsword I first think of something with shred and maybe AP5 but that just gives you a weak lightning claw.

Maybe it forces rerolls against successful armor saves?

 

I still think AP2 at initiative is the gap that should be filled. So you have a sort of progression with the regular CCW, the Chainaxe which is mostly meh, the quartet of power weapons + lightning claw all at 15 points with various strengths and drawbacks. Then you're looking at 25 points for a Power Fist and 30 for a Chainfist/Thunder Hammer. It's in that elite segment of costly weapons Ap2 at I belongs.

 

If you think about it, the Ripper as I propose it is what a Power Weapon used to be in 5th. People thought Power Weapons were cheap and lacklustre then, and considering that the emphasis on shooting is much greater in this edition and assault has taken a hit, this doesn't seem overpowered. 

 

Indeed, I did some Mathhammer just for kicks, and assuming that the Ripper is 10 point upgrade for Chaos terminators, and the Terminators also had Mark of Khorne, a 5-man squad comes out at 222 points where you pay 225 for a loyalist assault terminator squad with TH/SS. Pretty much equivalent cost, let's not trifle over three points. Ripper-wielding MoK termies also seem like the closest assault terminator equivalent. 

 

Generally, things would work out in the Loyalists' favour:

 

Chaos charges.

 

Chaos rapid fire combi-bolters. 0.741 wounds are caused. Let's say they get one of them. Four assault termies remain.

 

Chaos charge. They pass the charge check and also aren't charging through cover. We also assume the loyalists do not have any chapter tactics that can help them. I don't know how mathematically sound it is, but let's round everything up according to standard mathematical form (ie, 0.5 means 1, 0.49 means 0 and so on).

 

Turn 1:

 

Challenge, so champion against sergeant. Four chaos termies against three loyalists.

 

The fray: Chaos goes first, and because of MoK and charge they have four attacks each, so 16 attacks. These cause 1.333 wounds. Another loyalist down. Two loyalists swing their hammers at the traitors. 1.111 wounds, so one traitor down.

 

The challenge. Champion goes first. Inflicts 0.333 wounds. Pretty good chance that the Sergeant survives, and when he hits back he causes 0.556 wounds on the Champion, so challenge ends here and Sergeant gets back into the fray.

 

Turn 2.

 

We assume Chaos don't break and flee. Three chaos termies against three loyalists. 6 attacks at I, cause 0.5 wounds. One loyalist down. Loyalists swing back, causing 1.111 wounds. One traitor down too.

 

Turn 3.

 

Two Chaos termies cause 0.333 wounds. 1.111 traitors gets ganked.

 

Turn 4.

 

Chaos is dead.

 

 

 

You get the idea. They perform just like "naked" Chaos termies would have against assault marines in 5th (but are more expensive). If the assault termies were charging Chaos would have been even worse off. And this assumes ideal conditions where the charge succeeds, no one is charging through cover, or Chaos doesn't break or flee. It also assumes MoK - MoN or MoS would have been useless here, and with MoT you don't get enough attacks on the initial charge to compensate for the slower rate of attrition. I also didn't give the MoK termies combi-weapons or the Icon of Wrath, but I was going for the closest points parity I could.

 

Of course, you could pick a different target and get vastly different results. Against tactical terminators you're looking at MoK termies causing 2.667 wounds on the initial charge and most likely winning (provided no one died during Overwatch). Honour guard with power axes would be in an even worse position.

 

Against MEQ, well, they'd be no different than Chaos termies with power swords except they'd be more expensive. 

 

A bit tired and so not currently enough of a maths/rules buff to say much else. Either the idea is fine, horrible or needs something more than S:User AP2 to be worth 25 points. It requires a lot more mathhammering. Might return to that later.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Or make it two-handed, +1 S, and give it Rend. That way it hits at Initiative and will maybe be AP2 if you're lucky, but otherwise has a higher chance to wound. Forcing someone to convert it to a long blade with a big handle should be enough visual differentiation, and also looks cool.

[minigun762]

I see the need for AP2 @ Initiative but I don't think a chainsword based weapon is where I'd look.

 

Something like the daemon's ether blades makes more sense for Chaos.

 

Or maybe some kind of hyper sharp obsidian stone blade.

[Rasclomalum]

I see the need for AP2 @ Initiative but I don't think a chainsword based weapon is where I'd look.

 

Something like the daemon's ether blades makes more sense for Chaos.

 

Or maybe some kind of hyper sharp obsidian stone blade.

 

I guess I just have a preference for chainswords. Nothing like flying a space church 500 lightyears to make planetfall in buckets and run out screaming to hit an ork over the head with a chainsaw! :-)

 

And terminators with big chainswords would be glorious!

 

Seriously though, I'd also argue it should be something that can already be found in existing kits. Chainswords are absolutely everywhere. But that goes for your suggestions too. A glossy black blade could look pretty damn evil if painted right. 

[minigun762]

If your hearts set on a chainsword, I'd second MAX's idea of adding Rending. That gives you a decent chance at AP2 while keeping point costs down and working with the idea idea of chainsword being ripping nasty weapons.

 

Combing Rend with Shred would be potent too.

[Tenebris]

The Kinslayer

 

St - AP - Daemon Weapon, Rending, 15 points

 

Here, this would make every chaos veteran happy. Sheer volume of attacks, a random chance on Rending, solid price.

 

Advantages mitigated by the Daemon Weapon rule ( the rolls of 1) and by the model strength.

 

Fluff:

 

This is an ancient legion chainsword which has spilled the blood of brothers and kin sice the first day it appeared on the bloody battlefields of Istvaan. So drenched is this unholy chainsword with the blood of astartes thai it gained a malicious warp sentience which evermore craves for the blood of the Angels of Death.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Hard to outfit a unit with daemon weapons, though. I picture a unit of Chosen all wielding two-handed chainswords and being the mid level melee unit that can take on TDA if they have to, or CSM Aspiring Champions paying to replace their bolt pistol and ccw for one to have some kind of chance of hurting enemy melee deathstars before going down.

[Rasclomalum]

Tenebris' proposed artifact reminds me of a weapon wielded by one of the characters in the Word Bearers trilogy, and is fluffy and cool as all hell. By that description it would be a unique artifact though and I believe we should aim for a weapon everyone with access to the armoury could have. Like -Max- said, something that could make Chosen, Terminators and Aspiring Champions work against 2+. It seems right and fitting. The loyalists tend to have better shooting what with special issue ammunition, quite a few of the chapter tactics and the like, and have better access to 2+ armour and invulnerable saves across the board. Making Chaos more brutal in assault to compensate for this fact seems like a way of reaching equilibrium (power creep, yay!). Ever since 6th, no one gives their Aspiring Champions Power Fists, often expecting a model who is usually 10 points more expensive than the other models to just die in a challenge to spare the rest of his squad one turn of the opposing side's beatstick. 

 

Anyway, the current chainswords in the BRB: 

 

 

Chainsword: S:User, AP-, Melee

 

Eviscerator: Sx2, AP2, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed, Unwieldy

 

Heavy Chainsword: S+2, AP5, Melee, Two-handed

 

 

This is part of the reason why I've had a chainsword in mind all the time. There is a precedent for AP2 chainsaw shenanigans with the Eviscerator, and what I've been proposing is a weapon between the Eviscerator and the Heavy Chainsword in terms of power. We trade the Strength of the Heavy Chainsword for better armour penetration, without going full Chainfist which the Eviscerator essentially is.

 

Before we decide on the aesthetics though we need the rules profile and costs. The weapon must fill a gap in the armoury where it is useful, lest it becomes another chainaxe. Rend is nice to have, but might perhaps make the weapon a shade too unreliable? Sixes have a way of failing to happen when you want them to. Making it two-handed as per -Max-'s suggestion might be a good balance to AP2, you're trading the ability of ever getting an additional attack with the weapon for a solid chance of hurting artificer armour before it hurts you. People would likely pair the weapon with a combi-melta for a nice S8 AP1 shot before assaulting (or maybe not what with the likelihood of that increasing the charge distance). It would also be a boon for mutilators, however slight.

[Tenebris]

Some ideas:

 

Chainsword, St - AP 4, grants the USR Crusader - 15 points

 

Bolt Pistol, Daemon Weapon, AP 3 -  25 points

 

Bolter, Rending - 8 points

 

Chainsword, Fleshbane -  10 points

 

Close Combat Weapon, St - AP 4 Poison 3+ - 10 points

 

Lightning Claws, Shred, AP 3, Rending - 20 points (can be taken in pairs)

 

Sniper Rifle (we all know the HH vets had those), Precision, Rending, AP 4, Poison 4+  - 25 Points

 

Heavy Bolter, Daemonic Weapon, AP 3, Heavy Weapon (perfect for all kinds of "shooty" squads) - 25 points

 

...

 

In short I would love to see our aspiring champions having the access to USR as an added bonus as well as a source of Rending, Pinning or other USR which either harass enemy units or damage seriously enemy units, but overall generic weapons, marine weapons. 

[Rasclomalum]

 

In short I would love to see our aspiring champions having the access to USR as an added bonus as well as a source of Rending, Pinning or other USR which either harass enemy units or damage seriously enemy units, but overall generic weapons, marine weapons. 

 

Yes, yes indeed. Marine weapons are underused. A bolter and a chainsword often ends up looking more menacing than fisticlaws, know what I'm saying?