Templar1 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Howdy all, I'm a bit new to the heresy gaming but an old 40k veteran (And part of the Dorn fanclub). And I've been noticing some things that seem strange to me. In the FW heresy rules, a LOT of units seem heavily overcosted for what they do. Exhibit A: Legion Seeker squads. they're very expensive for a comparatively fragile unit and niche battlefield role. At least that's my opinion. They're far more expensive than sternguard, and while they're BS5, they get less variation in the types of ammunition they get. Has this been FAQed, like it's a typo or something? What has been anyone else's levels of success with this unit? Any other information on general Legion tactics would be helpful as well. Not having special weapons in tactical squads feels...strange to me. Though the Fury of the Legion rule seems to make up for it IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The initial costs of almost all Heresy units are very high. But incremental costs for additional units are low. For example - Seekers cost 7 times a Melta Bomb for the initial 5 models but only3 times a Melta Bomb for each additional model. This means that the models get 'cheaper' on average the larger a squad gets - which promotes the use of larger squads. This is intentional for Heresy where fluffwise larger squads were used. Also - keep in mind there are many other things that are intentionally different given the different circumstances of the Heresy era. Like Marines don't have ATSKNF and some Plasma doesn't get hot, and there are hardly any Storm Shields, and Rotor Cannons instead of Assault Cannons, etc. If anything Heresy Legions are actually more similar to the Chaos Marines Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yeah, you basically pay a huge tax to include a unit, but it gets comparatively cheaper the bigger it gets. In a way it's fluffy, but in another way it doesn't lend itself well to people who want to field armies with a lot of variety or to the play style of 7th edition in general. As we know it's beneficial against some armies to field multiple small units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 At its simplest, its Craftworld : Space Marines 30k. So that's how you should view the squads : Highly specialized units that work in concert to get the job done. If you do try to turn units into general purpose squads (much like 40k SM) you end up paying WAAY too much for "eh" performance. Also : Fury of the Legion. Shoot 2 times in 1 shooting phase but skip the next one. This + 20 man Tac Blobs = a bloody mess on the other side of the table. Also check the Horus Heresy Tactica subforum if you want to find out more about certain FoC slots, Legion specific tactics, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hivey Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 20 man tac squad + extra CCW + cognis signum = bloody mess in that shooting phase, AND a mess when they charge next turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templar1 Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 I did glob onto the tac squad thingy. My guys (Only painted a few, awaiting the last few pieces of my army in the mail) being Fists means...yeah. When I saw their rules my eyes nearly bugged out of my head. I'm thinking of putting the Tac squad in my Stormeagle or Spartan. I don't want to leave them exposed. Even blobbed up there seems to be so much marine-killy stuff in 30k that it's too risky to have them slog it out. Thoughts on this? Yeah, you basically pay a huge tax to include a unit, but it gets comparatively cheaper the bigger it gets. In a way it's fluffy, but in another way it doesn't lend itself well to people who want to field armies with a lot of variety or to the play style of 7th edition in general. As we know it's beneficial against some armies to field multiple small units. I noticed, but that's my big issue: lack of variety in 2K games and such (most of what the people around me play is 2K points). At its simplest, its Craftworld : Space Marines 30k. So that's how you should view the squads : Highly specialized units that work in concert to get the job done. If you do try to turn units into general purpose squads (much like 40k SM) you end up paying WAAY too much for "eh" performance. Also : Fury of the Legion. Shoot 2 times in 1 shooting phase but skip the next one. This + 20 man Tac Blobs = a bloody mess on the other side of the table. Also check the Horus Heresy Tactica subforum if you want to find out more about certain FoC slots, Legion specific tactics, etc. So large units working in concert? Sounds neat. It sounds a lot more...cerebral play-style for legion on legion conflicts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Shame your area is in the 2k range if you could somehow convince people to play higher points limit ie 2.5k+ you start really getting into the meat of thing especially when you start having Primarchs on the board. Maybe letting in a lot of counts-as. Yeah Large units all working together is the main Idea behind 30k is it being legions numbering in the tens to hundreds of tousands of Marines, counter to 40ks more squad/company oriented play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Like everyone's saying, legion units tend to cost more upfront, but become economical as you increase the unit's size. That said, there are definitely under performers and its too bad FW hasn't updated them in an FAQ like they've done with some other things. Also, don't be scared of the lower point level games. I feel like one of the only dudes here that plays at 1500-2000, but I find it pretty fun since you have to make hard choices about what to include and leave out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Part of the point cost also goes towards that it seems that the Heresy ruleset was geared towards larger games, with 2,000 points being the safest minimum. Some lists can go below that, but others, like the Night Lords, are very difficult to pull off and usually tend to be unbalanced with you being at the disadvantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templar1 Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 I was really looking foward to the Night Lords' rules coming out and...to be honest? After reading them I was not really impressed. I don't think the rules did them justice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Ehh, maybe. But a lot of the rules actually fit them and when put in concert with their FoC, the synergy is there. But they definitely rely on the larger points in order to be taken fully advantage of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 There a HH tactics sub-section on here with a few different threads you might find useful. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/220-horus-heresy-tactica/ This is a general tactics thread (kitwulfen has put a lot of his general thoughts in here which may be useful) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292035-basic-hh-tactics/ There is also an IF tactics thread (which I've just noticed you've already found :)) About point lists, I generally play 1000-1500 and have no problem (play against 40k generally). But trying to plan a Terror Assault army at this level? Not easy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yeah, 30K armies that rely on the less economical troops options (breachers, assault squads) will have a hard time at lower points levels. ~300 points for x10 marines in a single troops choice is rough when you are trying to make every point count AND fulfill your ROW requirements. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Thankfully you don't have to have a RoW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I sometimes play a 2k list very different from what most people on the forums use... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I sometimes play a 2k list very different from what most people on the forums use...And there in lies the beauty of the 30K ruleset versus the 40K Codex: multiple viable lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I sometimes play a 2k list very different from what most people on the forums use...And there in lies the beauty of the 30K ruleset versus the 40K Codex: multiple viable lists. Lol don't give me too much credit. It wasn't easy fitting both a Primarch and an allied detachment of Mechanicus in a 2k list... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Thing about 30K is there are just subtle differences between lots of similar units and also between Legions. For example: A Regular Tactical Squad and a Veteran Squad. Key differences - an extra Special Weapon, an extra Attack, Vet Tactics. But nothing like Plague Marines vs Sonic Marines. Or like Emperor's Children's Crusader USR vs Death Guard's immunity to Fear, Pinning and Dangerous Terrain. But nothing like Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics vs White Scars Chapter Tactics. Or, like the only difference between Sons of Horus Justerian Terminators vs Regular Terminators is Furious Charge and Stubborn. Or, where Tactical Squads can also equip an extra CC weapon to be on par with Assault Squads - except without Jump Packs. Therefore, it can seem like a lot of Legion armies end up looking the same - but the reverse is also true, where nothing is significantly overpowered (with some rare exceptions) and lots of different lists are viable. So if someone shows up with Night Lords - Orbital Strike ROW and all Assault Troops they would still be pretty much par if their opponent showed up with Death Guard - Pride of the Legion ROW and all Vet Troops. But, that's the point of 30K I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yep. The biggest blows in the Heresy were not overwhelming numbers or simply better armies. It was how the numbers and armies were used. And I think Forgeworld did an excellent job of replicating that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Don't look at the entry price of a unit, look at the price for adding additional members to the squad. Also remember, while they only have BS5 off the bat, with the inclusion of... say... a Master of the Signal, they become BS6. At that point, they're extremely potent an will easily fulfill the role of character assassin. Try to see the big picture, such as what the unit will compliment or what will make it even better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294118-heresy-legion-tactics-and-point-considerations/#findComment-3753760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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