Fighting Nids!

[Tzen]

Hi fellas!

 

This week I am fighting a Nidzilla list and the last time I fought something similar I had a bit of a bad time!

 

Do you have any general advice? I am a Word Bearers player! So I try to keep them sort of fluffy, but I also want to put up a fight!

 

Thanks in advance!

[the jeske]

with or without skyblight?

[totgeboren]

Their monsters (except Fexes) often need a few turns to kill our Dreadnoughts because of the changes to Smash, meaning the Dread stands a fairly good chance of killing or at least severely hurting most enemy monsters. On the other hand, Hive Guards kill Dreadnoughts like crazy and there really isn't much you can do about it.

 

Nids struggle with bringing 2+ save units down at range, but not in close combat, so Obliterators could work well enough.

 

Really, most Nids stuff you can handle with the sort of army you used in your battle reports, but if the Nid player brings flying Tyrants you might be in for some trouble.

 

Nids without flying Tyrants are manageable, Nids with flying Tyrants are pretty rough.

 

What you need is something that can kill enemy Venomthropes easily. I often include a Hadesfiend against Nids and it's always worth its weight in gold (points? Plastic?).

 

S8 is the magic number against nids, since you wound their monsters on a 2+ and have instant kill vs Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, Biovores (and Warriors, should he bring them lol).

 

Cultists lead by a Dark Apostle are really good against small nids, especially if you are behind cover. Between overwatch and tons of Hatered-attacks, most small Nids are dead long before they even get to swing. They are somewhat lacklustre against big Nids though, and not all that points efficient considering the cost of Dark Apostles in comparison to Lords.

 

I have used a MoT (though I call my Marks Blessings, and only see them as temporary. WB fluff and all...) Dark Apostle with the Murder Sword leading 30+ cultists, and depending on how many Monsters your enemy has, you can target say the enemy Tyrant, then shoot everything you have at other monsters close by, forcing him to either just stand back and get shot or try and assault the cultists and Apostle with the Murder Sword.

 

I dunno, it has worked so well for me that I stopped using it since my Nid opponent started getting frustrated. But it takes a whole army working together for it to work, and I don't think it would work now that my Nid opponent has gotten some flying monsters.

 

Crimson Slaughter Chosen with plasmaguns also make short work of Nids. Really, they are just point-and-click, remove a monster per turn.

[Tzen]

Thanks for the advice!

 

I will try and get a list  up later on for people to pull apart for me! :D

[Dallas Drake]

I haven't beat Skyblight yet, I'm sure it's beatable but at lower points levels it's just sick.

 

I always try to take out their synapse ASAP, which if it's Flyrants (and lets be honest, who isn't brining at least 2 Flyrants!?) is hard. If they use Warriors or Zoans for back up synapse then they're T4 so S8 is your friend. Having their synapse limited to Flyrants can hamstring Nids and force them to waste some of their Flyrants utility (though situational on board/mission etc).

 

Sadly, most of what CSM have that's effective is over costed, whilst MoN Oblits are great their high cost really adds up and ends up meaning you make cuts else where in your list. Plus, Nids deal with 2+ like they deal with 3+ or 4+ - by forcing loads and loads of saves (brain leach twin linked devourers) or bringing poison.

 

Don't let my pessimism put you off, I just find Nids a very, very tough match up with CSM. IG, Marines or Tau probably don't.

[totgeboren]

Oh, one other thing. Us CSM have access to what is probably the best Summoner in the game. A lvl 3 DP with Familiar. If that is your only psyker, you still have a 75% chance of summoning something even if you only roll a 2 on the Warp charge dice (meaning you only use 5 dice for a WC3 power). Pretty crazy, and they are no slouches in combat either. Oh, being able to use less dice to summon also means a much reduced chance of Perils, and even if he Perils he was got 4 wounds anyway.

 

But seriously, if you get the power Sacrifice and cast the Primaris, you will have summoned more points than he is worth in just two psychic phases even if you give him wings and power armour.

 

He is borderline broken, but hey, advice is advice. He can also vector strike enemy flying monsters, which is pretty cool.

[Tzen]

+++ New Roster (1495pts) +++

+++ 1500pt Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) v48 Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++

:

 

+ HQ + (440pts)

 

    * Daemon Prince (320pts) 

        (Daemon, Fearless, Veterans of the Long War)

        Burning Brand of Skalanthrax , 3x Mastery Level (become Psyker) , Nurgle , Spell familiar , Wings 

 

    * Sorcerer (120pts) 

        (Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Psyker)

        2x Additional Mastery Level , Gift of mutation,  Power Armour

 

 

+ Troops + (420pts)

 

    * Chaos Space Marines 

        9x Chaos Space Marine , Plasma Gun , Plasma Gun 

        * Aspiring Champion  

            (Champion of Chaos)

            Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol , Power Fist 

 

 

    * Chaos Space Marines 

        9x Chaos Space Marine , Plasma Gun , Plasma Gun

        * Aspiring Champion 

            (Champion of Chaos)

            Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, Power Fist

 

 

+ Fast Attack + 

 

    * Heldrake  

        (Daemon, Daemonforge, It Will Not Die, Meteroric Descent)

        Baleflamer

 

 

+ Heavy Support + (465pts)

 

    * Chaos Vindicator  

 

 

    * Havocs 

        4x Havoc , 4x Missile Launcher 

        * Aspiring Champion 

            Bolt Pistol, CCW

 

 

    * Obliterators 

        (Bulky, Daemon, Deep Strike, Obliterator Weapons, Slow and Purposeful)

        3x Obliterator 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I have so far. The ideal would be to summon daemons, but I don't really have the models to do so (least, not painted ones).

 

C+C very welcome!

[the jeske]

It is not allowed to post separate points cost of upgrades on this forum.

[Tzen]

Fixed! Sorry about that!

[Sheesh Mode]

I like plasma pistols, but they are too dangerous to have on a model that also has a fist. There is too much potential to lose 40pts worth of upgrades on a 13pt model. You've a lot of firepower that can kill individual Fex's and - with enough focus - kill a Tyrant and his guards if necessary. However, the toughest armor you have is a single AV13 model. Your opponent will look to open up those Rhinos so that he can kill your Chaos marines and assault your vindicator. Try to keep at least 18" and a piece of terrain between you and any monsters at all times. Where is the Sorcerer going? Most spells are close range, meaning putting him in the havocs is not recommended, though replacing him with a Vindicator would certainly help you.  

 

I do not know what your opponent is fielding, and furthermore I bring the fight too them. In my experience as a Chaos Marine cutting the enemy down instead of shooting them down is more effective, though there the number of methods is multitudinous. 

[the jeske]

 

 

    * Daemon Prince (320pts) 

        (Daemon, Fearless, Veterans of the Long War)

        Burning Brand of Skalanthrax , 3x Mastery Level (become Psyker) , Nurgle , Spell familiar , Wings 

 

 

 

A lot of points for summoning DP. against nids you are going to face 2+hive tyrants and possibly 2 or more of the other flyers. Your going to be jinking all the time and this means snap fire. Brand is not needed].You also seem to have to few sources of spell and remember that your DP will have to take some of the realy weak csm nurgle ones.

    * Sorcerer (120pts) 

        (Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Psyker)

        2x Additional Mastery Level , Gift of mutation,  Power Armour

 

Is ok , would be better if he was on a bike. familiar is not optional . GoM is wasted points.

 

+ Troops + (420pts)

    * Chaos Space Marines 

        9x Chaos Space Marine , Plasma Gun , Plasma Gun 

        * Aspiring Champion  

            (Champion of Chaos)

            Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol , Power Fist 

 

A this is too few troops. second pistols are bad upgrades , for the same points you could get a combi plasma. But in general you should stay away from champion upgrades. fist is a bad option, because of the cost to how many attacks you get in return. nids have a ton of characters, so the fist won't see much play. If you realy realy realy want to give him something make it a power ax or melta bomb. Personaly I never find points for it, chaos stuff costs so much.

 

 

 

+ Fast Attack + 

    * Heldrake  

        (Daemon, Daemonforge, It Will Not Die, Meteroric Descent)

        Baleflamer

 

 

Best leave it at home. The erratas and rule book changes made it not worth the point it costs.

 

+ Heavy Support + (465pts)

 

    * Chaos Vindicator  

 

always a bad option. horde units aren't hurt enough by it . Mc lose only 1W. it is slow with weak armor.

 

 

    * Havocs 

        4x Havoc , 4x Missile Launcher 

        * Aspiring Champion 

            Bolt Pistol, CCW

 

 

If you take havocks you should take auto cannons.

    * Obliterators 

        (Bulky, Daemon, Deep Strike, Obliterator Weapons, Slow and Purposeful)

        3x Obliterator

 

Should never be run without mark of nurgle.

[Tzen]

Thanks for the input guys!

 

Lot to ponder. My list is populated by models I actually have and are actually painted. So some of the options aren't available to me :(

 

But really appreciate the input, the truth is I have no idea what my opponent will be taking other than it will be Monstrous Creature list. I was going to use the Flying Daemon Prince largely as a distraction unit, but I'm considering dropping him and bringing some Helbrutes or similar. I don't really feel like I have that strong an army against Nids. So this feedback has helped shape my next purchases quite a lot!

[totgeboren]

* Havocs

4x Havoc , 4x Missile Launcher

* Aspiring Champion

Bolt Pistol, CCW

If you take havocks you should take auto cannons.

Heh, look at that, the jeske gave bad advice when it comes to purely competitive play!

No, but seriously. I have faced lost of Nids, and the autocannon (which is a good gun in most situations) is pretty bad against Nids. It doesn't have enough shots to really put a dent into small nids, it lacks Ap 3 to deal with their Monsters and it doesn't have S8 to instant kill their medium-size support guys.

I have used Autocannon Havocs vs Nids many times (because I thought I was going up against Eldar), and autocannons are probably the worst gun to bring vs Nids.

Missile launchers are good vs small Nids, medium Nids and big Nids, and costs about the same.

And about the Heldrake. If you are facing Flyrants they are pretty good just because of their Vector Strike. The important thing is that it's done in the Movement Phase, so a Hive getting hit will need to pass a Grounding Test then, and if you shoot him in the psychic phase he will need to roll again at the end of the psychic phase, and if you shoot him in the shooting phase yet one more test at the end of that phase.

In the case of Flyrants, you can also bait them with the Drake. If the Flyrant wants to stay flying, he can only do a 90° turn at the srart of his movemnet, so if you Vector strike him straight from the front and end up 6" behind the Flyrant, he will be forced to go into jump-pack mode if he wants to shoot your Heldrake in the rear (because he only has 18" range guns. I assume every Flyrant has dual twin-devourers). If he doesn't the Drake is free, and really the only way a Flyrant can bring the Drake down is by shooting it in the rear.

The Heldrake is our anti-flyer. Sure, it can attack ground stuff too, but it's so hard to use it's main purpose it to kill enemy flying things.

[the jeske]

Heh, look at that, the jeske gave bad advice when it comes to purely competitive play!

 

Realy ? You want to tell me that with the change to vehicle glancing ap3 RL are better[which they weren't in 6th/5th/4th etc] then auto cannons. Then thing is he shouldn't be playing with havocks at all. But if he does  take them the AC ones are the best ones.

 

Countering MC should be coming from plasma and melta and melee. RL are horrible against anything but the most sub par units[t4 +3 or worse save dudes , like ogryns or warriors].

 

 

And about the Heldrake. If you are facing Flyrants they are pretty good just because of their Vector Strike.

 

Against  nids with 4-5 FMC a single drake with 1 attack is wasted 170pts at best , at worse it is a mission complated for the nid player. Against all other armies post nerf the helldrake isn't much better. And the helldrake is a horrible anti flyer .

[totgeboren]

 

Heh, look at that, the jeske gave bad advice when it comes to purely competitive play!

Realy ? You want to tell me that with the change to vehicle glancing ap3 RL are better[which they weren't in 6th/5th/4th etc] then auto cannons. Then thing is he shouldn't be playing with havocks at all. But if he does  take them the AC ones are the best ones.

 

Countering MC should be coming from plasma and melta and melee. RL are horrible against anything but the most sub par units[t4 +3 or worse save dudes , like ogryns or warriors].

 

And about the Heldrake. If you are facing Flyrants they are pretty good just because of their Vector Strike.

Against  nids with 4-5 FMC a single drake with 1 attack is wasted 170pts at best , at worse it is a mission complated for the nid player. Against all other armies post nerf the helldrake isn't much better. And the helldrake is a horrible anti flyer .

 

Tzen was asking for advice on facing Nids. How many models with Armour Values do you think he will come up against?

The only thing I was criticizing you for is that Tzen had a unit of Havocs with Missile Launchers in his anti-Nid list, and you said he should use Autocannons instead. That is really bad advice, because Missile Launchers are much better vs Nids. Nids are mostly made up of sub-par units, so the Missile Launcher should be pretty good vs them. In an all-comers list the autocannons are better, but definitely not against Nids.

 

Vector Strike against FMCs do D3 hits, so a Drake could potentially kill an enemy Flyrant on the turn he shows up. 3 wounds and then a failed grounding test. Sure, not likely to happen, but he will likely do a single wound, enough to force a Grounding test before the Shooting Phase, meaning his plasmagun infantry will have a much easier time killing the Flyrant if it fails the Grounding Test.

 

Really, the trick in dealing with FMCs is to force Grounding Tests, and you can only force one test per phase. So if you can hurt the enemy in your Movement and/or Psychic Shooting, you have a fairly good chance of killing the FMC in your Shooting and/or Assault phase.

[Tzen]

As a general rule, how good are Rhinos in seventh? I tend to look at them as a way to block line of sight, but they got looked down on in 6th.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Again, really appreciate the help and feedback. I am in the process of digging out my bikers and Chaos Spawn at the moment from the help you guys have provided (and other threads here). Soon as I get some more finances I think I will be basically investing in a whole load of new stuff too!

[Dallas Drake]

The problem with vector striking Flyrants with Drakes is that the Nid player will start his Flyrants on the board, you have to reserve your Drake(s) and then bring it on from your table edge turn 2 or 3, then even if you do get it off who wants to pay all those points for D3 hits? Because, that's all it'll get, it's dead next turn. If he brings a Hive Crone as well as Flyrants then you've lost the air battle before you've even started. Grounding a Flyrant is good but unless you have something ready to do 2 wounds on a T6 3+ MC then it might survive, plus if you do kill it there's likely another one! Heh, good times

Havocs are bad vs. Nids full stop because they are T4 3+ (MEQs), tl-devourers eat MEQs for breakfast... Turn 2 they will all die. If you do take them maybe think about a 8 man units for some ablative wounds, might give you an extra turn of shooting, again if you need to take out FMCs then don't bother. Against everything except Tyranofexes krak missiles are pretty damn good. Autocannons are garbage against 'most' Nids (not bad against Crones or Harpies), but really you take autocannons to glance to death AV11-12.

I like the Nurgle DP, but run him as power armour, wings & black mace. Glide him & hope you don't roll any ones, anything on the ground can and should die to him in combat. Really you want 2 of these. On summoning daemons, I tried this against Nids, the problem is they deep strike in and then just die, Nids are fast and have plenty of gribbles just to throw at your T3 5++ summoned daemons, you're not going to get far doing this IMO… I didn't.

I actually think a Land Raider with a Khorne Axe-Lord and Khorne Chosen/CSMs could work well, AV14 is an absolute ball-ache for Nids and the assaulting element should do plenty of damage, if you can wipe out his ground forces (target synapse and any Tervigons) then you might have a shot at winning by purely OS denial.

Sadly, looking at your collection it seems that Nids is just a bad match up for your models, but hey in the end its just a game and I'm sure you can have a blast and enjoy a game even when losing - us CSM players seem to be practised at this right now

Edit: Rhinos are alright in 7th, but again, Nids just butcher AV11. If you're really unlucky they'll surround your Rhino before popping it, if they do that you lose around 5-6 dudes straight away because all exits are blocked, its a nasty tactic most Nids players use/know about and gargoyles tend to have the speed to pull it off. Personally I'd try to field higher AV or no AV against Nids.

[Tzen]

Thanks for the help Dallas!

 

I agree the collection I have painted is really really ill-suited against Nids. Although having played a few games now and from reading all the great info on here andother places I think i need to make a few more purchases. But more specifically I need to paint up my bikes and spawn, and also purchase two more fiends and build the one I have!

 

In general is it Mauler fiends that are better than Forgefiends?

[Tzen]

 
Selections:
 
 
 
+ HQ + (305pts)
 
    * Chaos Lord (145pts) 
        (Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independent Character)
        Juggernaut of Khorne, Mark of Khorne
        * Power Armour
            Axe of Blind Fury, Bolt Pistol
 
 
    * Sorcerer (160pts) 
        (Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Psyker)
        2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Power Armour, Spell familiar 
 
 
+ Troops + (180pts)
 
    * Chaos Space Marines (90pts) 
        4x Chaos Space Marine, Plasma Gun
        * Aspiring Champion
            (Champion of Chaos)
            Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Close Combat Weapon
 
 
    * Chaos Space Marines (90pts) 
        4x Chaos Space Marine, Plasma Gun
        * Aspiring Champion
            (Champion of Chaos)
            Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Close Combat Weapon
 
 
+ Fast Attack +
 
    * Chaos Bikers (170pts) 
        4x Chaos Biker, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Plasma Gun
        * Chaos Biker Champion
            (Champion of Chaos)
            Bolt Pistol, CCW
 
 
    * Chaos Bikers (170pts) 
        4x Chaos Biker, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Plasma Gun
        * Chaos Biker Champion 
            (Champion of Chaos)
            Bolt Pistol, CCW
 
 
    * Chaos Spawn (180pts) 
        (Fear, Fearless, Mutated Beyond Reason, Rage, Random Attacks, Very Bulky)
        Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn
 
 
+ Heavy Support + (478pts)
 
    * Maulerfiend (125pts) 
        (Daemon, Daemonforge, Fleet, It Will Not Die, Move Through Cover, Siege Crawler)
        Magma cutters
 
 
    * Maulerfiend (125 points)
        (Daemon, Daemonforge, Fleet, It Will Not Die, Move Through Cover, Siege Crawler)
        Magma cutters
 
 
    * Obliterators (228pts) 
        (Bulky, Daemon, Deep Strike, Obliterator Weapons, Slow and Purposeful)
        Mark of Nurgle (18pts), 3x Obliterator (210pts)
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

Okay, I did some soul searching today. I really want my army to be a Word Bearers force but the truth is in order to be competitive I need to really start looking at using marks, and not leaving as much as possible unmarked.

 

Thanks to the advice on this forum I have come up with the list above. This is a "Take all comers" list and is very much a work in progress. Was wondering what people thought of the above. To me it seems pretty good. Left a few points short to provide wiggle room.

 

Again thanks for all the input today, been really useful. I'll post pics of the game against the nids tonight here too! :D

[Prot]

Here's the thing with the Heldrake: I do think it is fine in regular games, even errat'd. I think it's the best unit we have for gutting a deep, stuck in unit that is harassing you from afar while entrenched in cover. I use it in that manner with decent success.

 

The problem is (and for many armies) against Nids is they pretty much own the air with dual dakk-flyrants. You almost need to just completely ignore it. So this leaves the Baledrake doing what exactly? Hunting out.... Hive Guard? That's about it. This is one case where I cannot defend the Baledrake.

 

Castling up against Nids is a bad idea. I'm pretty sure that is the sole intent behind the new Mawloc rules. I can't stand these things.... they totally eat up my Ravenwing, and they can disrupt your best hidden defenses....

 

I have to admit, as boring as it sounds, the good ol' Oblit with MoN is still one of my favorite choices in this scenario simply because of the unit's flexibility. Some turns you're going to love linked-melta, some turns the Assault Cannon will be great.

[totgeboren]

Okay, I did some soul searching today. I really want my army to be a Word Bearers force but the truth is in order to be competitive I need to really start looking at using marks, and not leaving as much as possible unmarked.

Thanks to the advice on this forum I have come up with the list above. This is a "Take all comers" list and is very much a work in progress. Was wondering what people thought of the above. To me it seems pretty good. Left a few points short to provide wiggle room.

Again thanks for all the input today, been really useful. I'll post pics of the game against the nids tonight here too!

I have mentioned it before, but as a die-hard fluff-bunny (maybe not ) I also have or had this problem with the WB and Marks. The codex is obviously made with no regard to background at all, all marks are just options like Storm Shields or Melta Bombs for loyalists.

With that in mind my way around it is that I call my Marks 'Blessings'. Most of my army is unmarked, but the models I want to mark I simply give give them whatever mark I want and say that my Dark Apostle has 'blessed' them with the favour of whatever God. He has to do something, because he is not on the battlefield that's for sure!

You know, like an ork and a human have the same strength even though the ork is obviously much stronger, so can the favour of the Gods also vary. A blessing is much more transient, only lasting the battle, but the effect is close enough to a full on Mark that they can share the same rule.

I mean, it's odd that you/we should feel the need to use count-as to play fully legal armies, but that's chaos for you. The background changes even though some of us don't want to change with it.

[Tzen]

Yeah Totgeboren, it feels really bad. I wanted so much to believe I could get away with not having to go against the fluff, but the truth is if I want to be slightly competitive I have to start thinking about playing "count as" a lot.

 

On the plus side the new Gal Vorbak models will make excellent Chaos Spawn models and still feel really fluffy!

 

The game last night went pretty badly. I have some good photos from it and my opponent was a really nice guy, but my army just couldn't compete with his perfectly fine Tyranids. He wasn't cheesey or anything, and he destroyed my army. I killed loads of small nids but when it came to the big creatures I just couldn't compete.

 

Thanks again for all the help! :D

 

I'll post some pics later on!

[Dallas Drake]

You can call marks whatever you want. I use Codex Crimson Slaughter even though my models are all painted as Word Bearers - I've never had even the remotest problem with that. Also, I've never had a problem putting marks on my 'Word Bearers' because as I see it the gods can drop favour onto any unit as and when they see fit. GW has made MoN the best/one of the better marks and it just so happens that most of my war band are currently in favour with Nurgle. I'm sure the fickle gods (or GW codex writers) will change their minds in future and it could be Khorne, Tzeentch or Slaanesh's gaze that lands on my hapless plastic minions. Plus, on a fluff note there are examples of units/warbands worshipping one god more than others in the Word Bearers legion, an example of this is the guys under the command of Marduk/Jarulek who worship Khorne in the superb Word Bearers omnibus.

 

Anyway… Your new list is much better. I'd drop the Lord as he can't join the Spawn or Bikes (MoN v. MoK) & make him a second sorcerer on a bike. Drop the MoN on the Sorcerers, they don't need or want it really. Nurgle powers in the book are average at best.

 

For 180 points you could have 2x20 Cultists or 3x10 and some points left over? I'm not against the CSMs but 10 wounds is a touch light. Just a thought.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Edit: I'm playing Nids today.

 

Here is his list:

 

 

Codex Tyranids Skyblight Dataslate (Unbound) - 1250 points

 

Flyrant

Flyrant

12 Gargoyles

12 Gargoyles

12 Gargoyles

Zoanthrope

Zoanthrope

Hive Crone

Harpy

Harpy

 

 

 

My list:

 

 

Codex Crimson Slaughter (Battle Forged) - 1250 points

 

Sorcerer (Bike, Familiar)

Cultists x 10

Cultists x 10

Bikes (MoN, meltagun x 2) x 4

Spawn (MoN) x 5

Spawn (MoN) x 5

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

 

Allies - Codex Chaos Daemons

 

Herald of Slaanesh (Exalted Locus)

19 Daemonettes

 

 

 

 

I'll post up a little bat-rep/report of how it went, though I am not really hopeful!

 

Dallas

[Prot]

Good luck in your game.

 

What powers is your sorc running?

[Dallas Drake]

Good luck in your game.

 

What powers is your sorc running?

Cheers Prot.

 

3 rolls on Telepathy hoping for Invisability. It's not ideal being 3+D6 whilst he's 8+D6 but at 1250 it's all I can do. At 1500 I add in 20 Horrors & 2 L3 Heralds & that REALLY helps!