Mechanicum Thallax Cohorts - Discussion

[Chronozoah]

Mechanicum Thallax Cohorts

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/godaston/Imperial%20Guard/S1220032_zpse3393ae0.jpg

Image courtesy of Daston from dakkadakka*

 

The Thallaxii are heavily augmented cyborg shock-troops used by the Mechanicum Ordo Reductor, and they differ from the Skitarii regiments both in purpose and the unique degree of their augmetics. The Lorica Thallax was developed from power armour technology and requires a robust human specimen. 

 

The Lorica encloses the major organs, nervous system and cerebrum, but entirely replaces the skeletal structure and limbs with armoured bionics powered by an internal reactor-core. Surgical excision of the subject’s pain sensors, emotions, and normal human sensory apparatus and the agony caused by the Lorica’s implantation, leaves the Thallax a cold, calculating killing machine (albeit one that retains a degree of independent thought). 

 

- Forge World

 

Greetings esteemed followers of the Omnissiah. The intent of this topic was to initiate a broad discussion on the subject of the Thallaxii. You may discuss paint schemes, lore, tactics, bitz, conversions and loadouts. Feel free to share any of your own assembled or painted models and preferred configurations. What are your theories and experiences with and regarding them on the tabletop? For what purpose do you field them, and how do you go about configuring them towards this purpose?

 

*the posted link will direct you towards the topic from which the image originated, over at dakkadakka.

[Ordo Machinum]

...which type does one use? The Reductor, Legio Cybernetica, and Taghmata Omnissiah lists won't let you combine them short of an allied force.

 

Book I Betrayal:

Dedicated transport is a Mechanicum Land Raider

Augment upgrades are Destructor, Icarian, Ferrox, Empyrite

 

Book II Massacre:

No dedicated transport

Augment upgrades are Icarian, Ferrox

 

Book III Extermination:

Dedicated transport is a Triaros Armoured Conveyor

Augment upgrades are Destructor, Icarian, Empyrite

 

All three share the same wargear:

Lorica thallax

Lightning gun

close combat weapon

frag grenades

 

All three share the same 1 in 3 weapon upgrades:

Multi-laser

Phase-plasma fusil

Irad-cleanser

Multi-melta

Photon thruster

 

Haven't used them yet, but I'm working on a squad with each available option (where possible).

[Battybattybats]

Here's my scheme of the Taghmata Omnissiah i am using with Knight House Cydonia

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f250/supreme_martian_overlord/DSCF00154.jpg

The background for my Thallax is deeply tied into my Knights.
They are part of the forces of the Forgeworld Hoagland (Or Saint Hoagland, haven't decided about the saint bit on the forgeworlds name) which was founded near the Knight world of New Ares. The original settlers sent from Mars who settled New Ares found it to be so Mars-like they deliberately kept it as close to the original form of Mars as possible, re-creating the holy landscape of Cydonia with the Knight Keeps as the core of the pyramids, terraforming it only the minimal amount required for life for a small population and becoming quite religious in their outlook. When the Mechanicum re-discovered New Ares during the Great crusade they saw this Holy re-creation of Mars and the religious beliefs of the locals as a potent sign, and the Mechanicum were welcomed with open arms by the nobles of New Ares, in particular the Baron of House Cydonia, first and foremost of the houses whose vision a year to the day previous of the Mechanicums discovery of the Knight world of a golden-cog- haloed skull formed not only the emblem of the house but was seen as a sign of the enlightenment the Mechanicum brought and a holy miracle sent by the Omnissiah.

The Barron not only sent the 2nd sons of House Cydonia to be trained as Sacristans but insisted that the 1st-born must also learn at least the basics of the Cult Mechanicum and so have a great understanding of the machines they ride to battle. Thus all Knights of House Cydonia are also Tech-Priests with a greater knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of their armour than other Knightly houses. The mental conditioning towards tradition of the Throne Mechanicum expresses itself in the case of the Knights of New Ares in the delving into study, the Great Quest for Knowledge and Omnissian religious ritual. The finding of New Ares was a great event for the Mechanicum giving them unfettered access to the technology that remained and which survived the cruel red dessert sands of the aeons and the damage dealt by xenos attacks. As a result tithes of mining or from the aquaculture from New Ares shallow sea are kept to a minimum, instead there is a constant pilgrimage of Tech-priests to study and pray to the holy and sacred relic terraforming and other archaeotech devices set within stone pyramids, tech-shrines and massive sculptures scattered across the barren lonely landscape.

Where a 1stborn son fails in the melding with a Knight the 2nd who had trained to be the Sacristan gets the position, and the 1st, much like how House Taranis turn failed Knights into Skitarii commanders, are turned into Thallax commanders.

The Knights of New Ares also differ from most other Knight worlds in allowing daughters so inclined to become knights and sacristans. Where the population of the rocky world has always been low and noble families small necessity required the option for nobles without sons to still provide pilots and sacristans.

The Holy position of House Cydonia within the Mechanicum/Adeptus Mechanicus means that all Knights spend time with the Legio Titanicus of Forgeworld Hoagland (Still pondering the Ordo's name, thinking of a halo-topped pyramid for the emblem, it'll be tied to the icon of House Cydonia to some extent) as well as the Taghmata Omnissiah and there is extensive coordination between the military of Knight World and Forge World. This is recognisable in the iconography of the Taghmata from Hoagland, where often the Opus Mechanicus has a golden cog representing the miraculous vision granted to the ancient Barron of House Cydonia.

Rarely is one present without at least a representative of the other, and depending on circumstances Knights may command Taghmata as often as Taghmata command Knights. And the drive of tradition of the Great Quest for Knowledge often sends the Knights with Explorators, the Forgewrld (Saint?) Hoagland has become a mustering point for many Explorator Fleets seeking the Omnissiahs blessing in the form of the military strength of Taghmata, Knights and Titans.

So far i've played two games with Thallax. The first one I was using them wrongly having missed that they have jet packs not jump packs. Still in that battle they went quite well.The second was a larger game and I took more casualties especially in melee, but still lost less than half the Thallax I put on the field (helped by fielding a Knight Paladin in the second game which blasted and stomped a great deal of the enemy).

I currently use two units of 3 as Troops in my Taghmata Omnissiah, one with a Photon Thruster the other with Multi Melta.

Also, where are the rules for the Heavy Chainblade option for them? Did i miss it in Extermination or is it in one of the other books?

[Chronozoah]

Thanks for the wargear reference point, Archangel.

 

I myself will almost always stick to minimum squads of three with multi-meltas and field them as vehicle hunters. With jet packs and the option of deep-striking or dedicated transports, they should have little trouble finding their mark.

 

@battybattybats: As for the heavy chainblades, I believe they use the same profile as heavy chainswords, but I may be mistaken. If true, you should find the rules for them in the basic rulebook as mentioned in HH: Betrayal.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Destructor is probably the only upgrade worth bothering with (Tank Hunters on lightning guns and photon thruster is legit, probs overkill on a multi-melta though). Icarian is very meh (you don't have the damage output to really scare Fliers), Empyrite is literally useless (Jetpack Infantry have Deep Strike by default), and Ferrox while hilarious fades when you consider Usurax now exist (and are pretty much exactly Thallax re-tooled for close-combat). All of the upgrades are pretty expensive though, leaving them vanilla doesn't hurt. 

 

I dunno if you'd ever bother with a transport, as you generally wanna take MSU to capitalise on enemy target priority issues and to split up your heavy weapons (as they can't Combat Squad or anything like that). 

 

Dunno why people rate the multi-melta, when you have the photon thruster as a weapon option. Huge range, 2 shots, great for smoking Terminators and Marines, and it functions okay as anti-tank (probably wanna get side-armour though, as S6 is a real limiter, even with Lance). The Blind is the real draw though, that will shut down a lot of ranged units if they fail the test. 

 

Heavy chainblades seem like a waste of points to me. Thallax should avoid close-combat like the plague, they're much stronger as a shooting unit. Leave that to Usurax. 

[Battybattybats]

Isn't Empyrite specifically to allow them to deepstrike in Zone Mortalis games?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Isn't Empyrite specifically to allow them to deepstrike in Zone Mortalis games?

 

 

Yeah, which makes it so cornercase you'd literally never take it outside of Zone Mortalis (which hardly anyone plays anyway, due to its weirdness and heavily favoring Terminators). 

[Chronozoah]

Dunno why people rate the multi-melta, when you have the photon thruster as a weapon option. Huge range, 2 shots, great for smoking Terminators and Marines, and it functions okay as anti-tank (probably wanna get side-armour though, as S6 is a real limiter, even with Lance). The Blind is the real draw though, that will shut down a lot of ranged units if they fail the test. 

The reasoning is that when I'm outfitting a squad for the purposes of destroying vehicles, I would generally not opt for a weapon that is merely 'okay' within that role. If I'm going to be deep-striking the unit in anyway, range is much less of an issue.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The reasoning is that when I'm outfitting a squad for the purposes of destroying vehicles, I would generally not opt for a weapon that is merely 'okay' within that role. If I'm going to be deep-striking the unit in anyway, range is much less of an issue.

 

Well yeah, obviously you'd take the multi-melta then. But Thallax are kinda wasted as suicide melta, they're so expensive by comparison with other tank-killing options. Plus, your odds of one-shotting tanks have gone down now that 7th has changed the damage chart. Even at 12", you still need a 5 on the chart to blow them up. One multi-melta probably won't cut it, you'll need multiples (the lightning guns are single-shot as well, so your odds of Rending are low). 

 

It's why I reckon the photon thruster is better. It has absurd range, causes Blind, still kills infantry and puts wounds on MC's. Great for early suppression while your other short-ranged or melee units move in for the kill. 

[Chronozoah]

Well yeah, obviously you'd take the multi-melta then. But Thallax are kinda wasted as suicide melta, they're so expensive by comparison with other tank-killing options. Plus, your odds of one-shotting tanks have gone down now that 7th has changed the damage chart. Even at 12", you still need a 5 on the chart to blow them up. One multi-melta probably won't cut it, you'll need multiples (the lightning guns are single-shot as well, so your odds of Rending are low). 

 

It's why I reckon the photon thruster is better. It has absurd range, causes Blind, still kills infantry and puts wounds on MC's. Great for early suppression while your other short-ranged or melee units move in for the kill. 

It's an even larger waste to invest points diversifying the small unit and detracting from what they're best at in order to allow them to perform sub-optimally at a role in which other units are vastly superior. Long-range heavy firepower is best left to the likes of the Myrmidon Destructors. Thallax can only carry one heavy weapon which contributes to their already considerable cost for a small unit without much return on the investment. It's best to fit them to a specific role and tailor them towards that, rather than spread them thinly and turn a good dedicated unit into a mediocre diverse one. Bare in mind that if you use the range advantage of the Photon Thruster to provide fire-support, then two-thirds of your unit won't be able to shoot anything, and once you start shooting at close range, the additional range from the gun is useless anyway. Let us also recall that the Thallax can deep-strike, somewhat mitigating their range issues and bringing the enemy easily within range of their Multi-melta / melta bombs and rending weapons. The Thallax are expensive regardless of how you configure them, trying to add an additional role which they will perform comparatively poorly and which directly clashes with what they are best set up to do seems like a poor choice. 

 

Killing infantry and wounding MCs is best left to Destructors (BS5, Preferred Enemy, more flexible heavy weapons system). A more optimal set-up would be to field Thallax as tank hunters and have them deep-strike onto the field with fire support from the Myrmidons using Volkite Culverins. 12 shots with Deflagrate @ BS5 will be vastly superior at suppression as your combat units close the distance. In all honesty, given these considerations, I honestly would not recommend the Photon Thruster to most people. It doesn't contribute much to the Thallax unit and there are other places to get vastly superior long-range gunfire which will suppress enemy units and rip holes in infantry and MCs. On top of this, and, I suppose this is my biggest issue with the notion, the Photon Thruster will either steal the show when you try and fight at long-range (making most of your unit useless) in order to actually take advantage of it, or will become redundant itself when fighting up close. It creates this haphazard playstyle in which selections of your unit will be useless at any one time and you trade an effective specialisation for a mediocre-at-best ability to hit multiple things other units will hit harder.

 

The only reason I would field Thallaxii with Photon Thrusters would be if my Heavy Support slots were already taken up by vehicles and I needed my troops to pick up the slack in terms of heavy firepower, but honestly, given the weaponry and statline of the Destructors, I would very rarely consider not including at least one unit or a Thanatar with Cyber Occularis support (S8 AP2 templates from 48" range while out of sight and which force re-rolls of successful cover saves (and those cover saves will also be reduced in effectiveness if Cyber Occularis are near the target) will obliterate entrenched infantry blobs, MCs and some vehicles).

 

 

 

 

[Chief Librarian Corvin]

Gentlemen and Ladies for those involved. 

 

Is there a special rule I am not seeing about the Thallax and the firing of heavy weapons?  Is there something I am just not seeing in the rules?  My understanding is heavy weapons are move or fire, much less Jump.  I would like to run them more effectively than move, sit, shoot. 

 

I do appreciate your responses. 

[Dark Bjoern]

They are jet pack infantry, not jump infantry. They move like tau battle suits

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's an even larger waste to invest points diversifying the small unit and detracting from what they're best at in order to allow them to perform sub-optimally at a role in which other units are vastly superior. Long-range heavy firepower is best left to the likes of the Myrmidon Destructors. Thallax can only carry one heavy weapon which contributes to their already considerable cost for a small unit without much return on the investment. It's best to fit them to a specific role and tailor them towards that, rather than spread them thinly and turn a good dedicated unit into a mediocre diverse one. Bare in mind that if you use the range advantage of the Photon Thruster to provide fire-support, then two-thirds of your unit won't be able to shoot anything, and once you start shooting at close range, the additional range from the gun is useless anyway. Let us also recall that the Thallax can deep-strike, somewhat mitigating their range issues and bringing the enemy easily within range of their Multi-melta / melta bombs and rending weapons. The Thallax are expensive regardless of how you configure them, trying to add an additional role which they will perform comparatively poorly and which directly clashes with what they are best set up to do seems like a poor choice. 

 

Destructors are not Troops though, they're Heavy Support, and they have stiff competition from the Thanatar (which eats infantry very effectively and can put wounds on MC's decently) and Krios Venator (which is probably our best anti-tank in terms of cost efficiency, although obviously Destructors can cause more HP loss on average). I don't know why you're comparing apples with oranges. 

 

18" range guns is part of the problem with Thallax. You're basically forced to throw them at the enemy gunline straight away, to get those lightning guns into range. My thinking with the photon thruster is it allows you to throw down some nice firepower as you advance. Camping at 48" is definitely not the plan, I'd be advancing. But I'd rather my Thallax contribute from Turn 1, rather than Turn 3. 

 

Your odds of getting into melee with a vehicle with Thallax (before getting counter-charged by enemy infantry are kinda low. You're still as slow as normal infantry when it comes to charging. I'd honestly rely more on Ursurax in that role (they have the speed and powerfists to get the job done very reliably, S10 AP2 is basically auto-HP loss with every hit). 

Is there a special rule I am not seeing about the Thallax and the firing of heavy weapons?  Is there something I am just not seeing in the rules?  My understanding is heavy weapons are move or fire, much less Jump.  I would like to run them more effectively than move, sit, shoot. 

 

Jet Pack infantry have the Relentless special rule. 

[Chronozoah]

Destructors are not Troops though, they're Heavy Support, and they have stiff competition from the Thanatar (which eats infantry very effectively and can put wounds on MC's decently) and Krios Venator (which is probably our best anti-tank in terms of cost efficiency, although obviously Destructors can cause more HP loss on average). I don't know why you're comparing apples with oranges. 

To extent the metaphor - because you're taking an apple and trying to force it to become part orange, when you might as well just eat an orange and an apple instead. The fact that Destructors are not Troops is irrelevant to the point being made. As for Thanatar, they have two problems. One, they can't deep-strike, and two, they cost a great deal of points. The idea of the Thallax Cohort here is utilising them as an anti-vehicular measure which can deploy wherever required to deal with threats (the Thanatar would not serve this role well). The Thanatar does have a 48" range weapon, which is great, but that range also halves if the Thanatar moves, in addition to the other disadvantages and considerations. As for the Krios tanks, you can field them in squadrons, so the HQ slot is a lot more negotiable.

18" range guns is part of the problem with Thallax. You're basically forced to throw them at the enemy gunline straight away, to get those lightning guns into range. My thinking with the photon thruster is it allows you to throw down some nice firepower as you advance. Camping at 48" is definitely not the plan, I'd be advancing. But I'd rather my Thallax contribute from Turn 1, rather than Turn 3. 

 

And my thinking is that spending points to throw in an upgrade that will contribute little and create an awkward game state is a bad idea. Contributing turn 1 is nice, but it won't count for much when that contribution is minor and would be best served coming from other sources which are better suited to long-range firepower. Like I said, you're trying to turn a useful dedicated unit into a mediocre one with some versatility, except it will do poorly at the roles you're allocating it by dividing focus (you lose an immense amount of potential from fielding such conflicting weapons). It doesn't matter too much when the Thallax contribute if they're going to be deep-striking onto the field, and there's always the fact that you have other units which are better at suppression and long-range firepower to fill that role while the Thallaxii wait to arrive or move up.

Your odds of getting into melee with a vehicle with Thallax (before getting counter-charged by enemy infantry are kinda low. You're still as slow as normal infantry when it comes to charging. I'd honestly rely more on Ursurax in that role (they have the speed and powerfists to get the job done very reliably, S10 AP2 is basically auto-HP loss with every hit). 

 

The Thallax shouldn't be charging unless you absolutely need to tie something up. Otherwise, they should be doing exactly as I said within their role - deep-striking in (mitigating range issues). I'm not entirely certain what part of my argument this contradicts, since assaulting in general is not what the Thallax are well equipped to do. My apologies in advance if I misspoke.

 

[Chief Librarian Corvin]

Thanks for the assist.  Will have to look that up.  Love the model and own 15 of the things.  Just happy to see that they are more effective than what I was seeing. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

To extent the metaphor - because you're taking an apple and trying to force it to become part orange, when you might as well just eat an orange and an apple instead. The fact that Destructors are not Troops is irrelevant to the point being made. 

 

I'm not forcing anything. Thallax do zip Turn 1, and take at least a turn of movement to be in range with their lightning guns. In that 2-3 turns space, having some contribution is better than none at all. The photon thruster 

 

Destructors being Heavy Support matters because they can't fulfill mandatory core choices, and they compete with your other Heavy Support. Thallax meanwhile can comfortably fit into most Mechanicum lists, as you have 6 slots to use up (plus you need to fulfill two at least). That's why I'm not comparing them, as they exist in different slots and roles. 

As for Thanatar, they have two problems. One, they can't deep-strike, and two, they cost a great deal of points. 

 

Why would not being able to Deepstrike be a problem? They're a ranged support unit. That's like complaining Castellax or Destructors can't Deepstrike. 

The Thanatar is appropriately costed really, considering the damage output he has (especially under 'Rite of Destruction'). It's tougher than most vehicles by a long margin, it annhilates infantry wholesale, and it can tear apart most other MC's in melee pretty well ('Rite of Fury' helps out there). 

The idea of the Thallax Cohort here is utilising them as an anti-vehicular measure which can deploy wherever required to deal with threats

 

One multi-melta shot does not have great odds of nuking a tank, even at melta range, due to the new damage table in 7th. I'd look more to Destructors or Krios Venators for our anti-tank needs (as both can pour out a lot of high Strength shots which will strip HP even if they don't one-shot the target). 

And my thinking is that spending points to throw in an upgrade that will contribute little and create an awkward game state is a bad idea. Contributing turn 1 is nice, but it won't count for much when that contribution is minor and would be best served coming from other sources which are better suited to long-range firepower. 

 

2x S6 AP2 Blind at 48" on a Relentless Jetpack platform isn't a minor contribution. On low Initiative units, you can shut them down for a turn. You can whittle down elite infantry Turn 1, and high Toughness targets don't like losing wounds Turn 1. Compared to their other weapon options it isn't that expensive (only 10pts more than a multi-melta). On Destructors you pay a lot more per model to get photon weaponry (they do get the darkfire cannon arguably, but they still pay through the nose for it). I won't disagree its pretty bad at anti-tank (Lance doesn't work at S6), but at harassing and potentially taking units out of the game for a turn, its pretty decent. 

 It doesn't matter too much when the Thallax contribute if they're going to be deep-striking onto the field, and there's always the fact that you have other units which are better at suppression and long-range firepower to fill that role while the Thallaxii wait to arrive or move up.

 

I'd rather not Deepstrike them, as both Interceptor and the randomness of Reserves can really  screw you over (plus you're weakening your board presence until they arrive). I'd rather have my full force on the table Turn 1 causing damage than wait potentially 2 turns to show up and maybe kill a tank. Same reason why you'd never Deepstrike Usurax, they can get into a Turn 2 charge position just fine using their normal movement and Run. 

The Thallax shouldn't be charging unless you absolutely need to tie something up. Otherwise, they should be doing exactly as I said within their role - deep-striking in (mitigating range issues). I'm not entirely certain what part of my argument this contradicts, since assaulting in general is not what the Thallax are well equipped to do. My apologies in advance if I misspoke.

 

You brought up meltabombs as a thing Thallax can do to tanks, in addition to the multi-melta. Which is true, but as I pointed out, getting in melee with enemy vehicles is unlikely given how slow Thallax are (they're ironically more mobile as a shooting unit, due to how Jetpack units work). 

 

 

I'll be using both Thallax and Destructors in my army (the latter with volkite culverins, as 16x S6 shots a turn with Deflagrate takes care of enemy chaff and even 3+ armour very efficiently). I think the lightning gun is an unfortunate misstep by Forge World, it really should either be longer-ranged or Heavy 2. As another example of why its bad, on Vorax battle-robots you'd always replace its dorsal lightning gun with the rad-cleanser. 40pts per psycannon shot (which is basically what it amounts to, although Shred is nice I won't lie) is pretty steep. 

[Battybattybats]

I have one unit with melta one with photon.
Against chaos marines and Sisters of Battle I've found both useful.
Even though the Photon Thruster wielding Thallax has wounded itself every game so far it's had quite an efficient kill-ratio. The two shots makes a big difference, especially with my dice rolls.
So far i find the best choice for me is one of each.
Besides, i value the tactical flexibility of a varied load-out. If you over-specialise each unit while they have increased efficiency in that role they become more trapped in that role, and sometimes the enemy doesn't give you the target in front of your unit that it is ideally suited to, or takes away your specialist anti-tank unit leaving you nothing to oppose their tanks. A mix of specialists and adaptable hole-filler units works best for me.

[Kilofix]

I've been using 2 squads of 3 - both with a Multi-Melta each - as Tank Hunters.

 

But, for arguments sake, is there a good way to make them effective against Troops / Blobs?

I'm thinking the answer is no because they really have too few shots for their point cost - even with Plasma Fusil or Irad Cleanser.

 

On a related note - is the Ursarax a kind of Thallax?

[korban]

On a related note - is the Ursarax a kind of Thallax?

 

They are both grouped into Cohorts, the Ursarax have jump packs instead of jet packs. But they both have Lorica Thallax armour, so I would say yes.

 

Ursarax also have an Iron Man chest beam, but i'd imagine the general body shape would be the same.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But, for arguments sake, is there a good way to make them effective against Troops / Blobs?

I'm thinking the answer is no because they really have too few shots for their point cost - even with Plasma Fusil or Irad Cleanser.

 

At range? Not really. In melee though, you could give them heavy chainblades and the Ferrox upgrade ;) WS3 and I2, but still...

 

On a related note - is the Ursarax a kind of Thallax?

 

 

Technically no. They're an unsanctioned design of a rogue Magos. They were used by Mechanicum factions on both sides of the war, but the Ordo Reductor looks upon them with distaste (because they're essentially a bastardised version of Thallax geared towards melee). They use the Lorica Thallax, but they have jump packs, a higher FNP roll (as a result of the experimental tech inside them) and a weird combination of a volkite and twin melee power weapons. I'm sure the official models will look very much like Thallax. 

 

The different Thallax Augments represent the sanctioned variants of Thallax. 

[Chronozoah]

I'm not forcing anything. Thallax do zip Turn 1, and take at least a turn of movement to be in range with their lightning guns. In that 2-3 turns space, having some contribution is better than none at all. The photon thruster 

 

You're implementing a paradigm which mandates that the unit stretches out to accommodate multiple forms and means of combat by trying to place an additional weapon in the squad which ironically imposes major restrictions on your unit and means that at any one point in time, at least 1/3rd of your squad is accomplishing precisely nothing. Not very little - absolutely nothing. 'Some' contribution which is inherently risky and minor in scope is not necessarily inherently superior to a strategem which focuses it's units more efficiently, plays havoc with target priority, and will ultimately in most cases lead to more major contributions - just not right now, and honestly, if your justification is merely that 'it does not contribute immediately, thus it is not worth it' (a mindset which seems closed-minded, and I hope that I am incorrect on that) then this is surely a difference of playstyle rather than a discussion on the viable uses of Thallaxii. 

Why would not being able to Deepstrike be a problem? They're a ranged support unit. That's like complaining Castellax or Destructors can't Deepstrike. 

The Thanatar is appropriately costed really, considering the damage output he has (especially under 'Rite of Destruction'). It's tougher than most vehicles by a long margin, it annhilates infantry wholesale, and it can tear apart most other MC's in melee pretty well ('Rite of Fury' helps out there). 

48" is great, but it's foolish to assume that you will be able to hit your desired targets right from the outset, and this set-up poses two problems:

1. The Thanatar will theoretically spend turns firing at nothing or sub-optimal targets as a remotely competent and/or experienced player moves vulnerable targets (which are probably more mobile) out of range while...

2. Firing on the Thanatar because it's battlefield presence will cause it to become a bullet magnet. It's tough, but if the recent meta has taught us anything, it's that it doesn't matter how tough you are - armies can and will still blow your strongest units away (often with surprisingly little effort).

 

These are just some points to consider. In terms of a strict comparison on anti-vehicular measures (what I intended to compare them on), the Thallax equivalently is cheaper, has more wounds, multiple attacks per turn and is able to land in the midst the enemy forces almost at will, meaning that it will (usually) arrive safely and may function to break enemy formations up and force them to try and deal with the Melta-wielding Thallax trying to pop their vehicles.

 

I agree completely that the Thanatar seems to be a great addition to the army on paper, but I haven't found opportunity to test it yet.

One multi-melta shot does not have great odds of nuking a tank, even at melta range, due to the new damage table in 7th. I'd look more to Destructors or Krios Venators for our anti-tank needs (as both can pour out a lot of high Strength shots which will strip HP even if they don't one-shot the target). 

 

2x S6 AP2 Blind at 48" on a Relentless Jetpack platform isn't a minor contribution. On low Initiative units, you can shut them down for a turn. You can whittle down elite infantry Turn 1, and high Toughness targets don't like losing wounds Turn 1. Compared to their other weapon options it isn't that expensive (only 10pts more than a multi-melta). On Destructors you pay a lot more per model to get photon weaponry (they do get the darkfire cannon arguably, but they still pay through the nose for it). I won't disagree its pretty bad at anti-tank (Lance doesn't work at S6), but at harassing and potentially taking units out of the game for a turn, its pretty decent. 

What are the odds of a Multi-melta shot and two Lightning Guns significantly harming or destroying a vehicle? What are the odds of a Photon Thruster blinding a target? What are the odds of 'Gets Hot!' kicking in and wounding your unit? I believe these are the questions which most need to be considered and that this is where the center-point of the discussion should lie, given that you specified that you would field a Photon Thruster to generate some early-game advantage through blinding. My concern is that the Thallax can be an effective and efficient anti-vehicular measure which is surprisingly mobile and durable, and you're adding more to the cost for something which may be 'pretty decent'. As mentioned before, we have vastly superior ways of dealing with infantry (Myrmidons with Volkite Culverins, 12 S6 shots @ BS5 with re-rolls and Deflagrate, for example) and harassing or suppressing the enemy with turn 1 shooting (most of our army, actually).

 

It seems we're in agreement that it is sub-par against anti-tank, what I wonder is whether this early-game contribution will actually translate into allowing you to generate advantage on the tabletop, and how often the properties of the Photon Thruster will come into effect and whether it is worth the trade-off of a mostly useless unit. If you want an early game platform for blinding targets, you should take Myrmidons. They're expensive, but at least ALL of them will be useful early-game, so while it may seem expensive, one must consider that you are getting better cost-per-performance than with the Thallax unit with Photon Weaponry, considering 2/3rds of the unit are a very expensive decoration to the unit until you get closer to the enemy, whereas Myrmidon Destructors will all be capable of contributing if you give them the appropriate weapons. In this regard, the Thallax will actually turn out to be more expensive relative to what they bring to the table, because only one of them will be contributing early-game and if that is what you are after, there are better ways of doing so, seemingly.

I'd rather not Deepstrike them, as both Interceptor and the randomness of Reserves can really  screw you over (plus you're weakening your board presence until they arrive). I'd rather have my full force on the table Turn 1 causing damage than wait potentially 2 turns to show up and maybe kill a tank. Same reason why you'd never Deepstrike Usurax, they can get into a Turn 2 charge position just fine using their normal movement and Run. 

 

No more so than the ability to be shot at and the fact that you paid for two Thallaxii that aren't doing anything, in addition to the risk of wounding your own unit. If you'd rather have your full force on the table, that is entirely up to you, but could we possibly avoid turning this into a discussion of 'I do it this so there!'? It's not conducive to a healthy discussion, and by making a statement of this nature you imply that any unit which uses deep-strike is non-viable and that only units which generate an immediate advantage (even if negligible) are worthy of consideration. Again, this seems to be a broad statement on play-style rather than the actual viability of units, a concept which entails far more considerations than what you might personally be more comfortable with.

 

As for me, I'd rather that my full unit be actually usable and respond to the opponent's movements with a precision attack on a particularly dangerous target, in the process getting within range (usually) without being shot and running interference and leave long-range shooting and suppression to the units which do it much better, rather than march my Thallaxii across the field, firing piecemeal at the enemy and maybe blinding something but also maybe wounding my own unit.

You brought up meltabombs as a thing Thallax can do to tanks, in addition to the multi-melta. Which is true, but as I pointed out, getting in melee with enemy vehicles is unlikely given how slow Thallax are (they're ironically more mobile as a shooting unit, due to how Jetpack units work). 

 

 

I'll be using both Thallax and Destructors in my army (the latter with volkite culverins, as 16x S6 shots a turn with Deflagrate takes care of enemy chaff and even 3+ armour very efficiently). I think the lightning gun is an unfortunate misstep by Forge World, it really should either be longer-ranged or Heavy 2. As another example of why its bad, on Vorax battle-robots you'd always replace its dorsal lightning gun with the rad-cleanser. 40pts per psycannon shot (which is basically what it amounts to, although Shred is nice I won't lie) is pretty steep. 

 

If you want to charge vehicles with melta-bombs, that's fine (I wouldn't do it personally), but the concept of assaulting enemy units (not necessarily vehicles) is something you should typically avoid unless you've equipped them for such encounters. With the deep-strike rule, you will end up pretty damn close to vehicles anyway and a charge might very well be possible. This is subject to target priority and enemy deployment, of course.

 

As will I. What experiences do you have with the army to support your case / add to the discussion? I do want to playtest Photon Thrusters. I imagine that in low-point matches where the field is small and the unit count low, it will provide some use in the role you have mentioned, though as the point limit goes up I see the viability and contribution of such a unit dropping.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You're implementing a paradigm which mandates that the unit stretches out to accommodate multiple forms and means of combat by trying to place an additional weapon in the squad which ironically imposes major restrictions on your unit and means that at any one point in time, at least 1/3rd of your squad is accomplishing precisely nothing. Not very little - absolutely nothing. 'Some' contribution which is inherently risky and minor in scope is not necessarily inherently superior to a strategem which focuses it's units more efficiently, plays havoc with target priority, and will ultimately in most cases lead to more major contributions - just not right now, and honestly, if your justification is merely that 'it does not contribute immediately, thus it is not worth it' (a mindset which seems closed-minded, and I hope that I am incorrect on that) then this is surely a difference of playstyle rather than a discussion on the viable uses of Thallaxii. 

 

I fail to see how the photon thruster will accomplish nothing against anything but AV13/14 (which it sadly only hurts on 6's, which is more than most S6 can say, but still...urgh). S6 AP2 hurts MC's and infantry, it causes Blind tests (which on low Initiative targets is scary, its worse than Pinning in many ways), and it has the range and platform (Jetpack infantry) to threaten Turn 1 onwards. 

 

I don't like paying Terminator price for units that do nothing for 2-3 turns except look pretty. That's essentially what unupgraded (or Deepstriking) Thallax do. Lightning guns are cool and when they hit, they hit like a truck. But even with BS4, being a one-shot gun is a pain. That's why until you are 24" from the enemy (ie move+shoot), Thallax do nothing but get shot. Granted, they're really good at getting shot, but still. 

 

In my mind, there are two viable ways to use Thallax. Either you give them photon thruster and use them as fire support for your advance, which they do a fine job of (and they're more mobile and arguably tougher than Myrmidons of both types in that role). Or you give them multi-melta and Deepstrike next to enemy tanks, hopefully getting an angle on the side or rear armour (so you're not hoping for Rends or spiking on the melta roll). Thallax seem designed primary to hunt armour and MC's, they are terrible at killing infantry for the most part (they can suppress with the photon thruster, but they won't kill enough each shooting phase to hold back a numerically superior force). The mutli-laser is awful, and the rad-flamer is on the wrong unit. 

48" is great, but it's foolish to assume that you will be able to hit your desired targets right from the outset, and this set-up poses two problems:

1. The Thanatar will theoretically spend turns firing at nothing or sub-optimal targets as a remotely competent and/or experienced player moves vulnerable targets (which are probably more mobile) out of range while...

2. Firing on the Thanatar because it's battlefield presence will cause it to become a bullet magnet. It's tough, but if the recent meta has taught us anything, it's that it doesn't matter how tough you are - armies can and will still blow your strongest units away (often with surprisingly little effort).

 

In all three deployment types, its very hard to be further than 48" from the enemy. They'd need LOS blocking terrain and to be hugging their DZ backline to do it, which means they by definition are not in a position to threaten your lines or objectives. 

 

I would prefer the enemy shoot the Thanatar. Good luck to them. Its a 5-wound Wraithlord with a 2+/5+ and Feel No Pain. For Land Raider price that's already quite good. As for its gun, even if you don't kill anything with it (which is unlikely), its mere threat is enough to dictate enemy movement, for the reasons you outlined (ie they're cowering behind terrain, not advancing or doing anything of worth). 

These are just some points to consider. In terms of a strict comparison on anti-vehicular measures (what I intended to compare them on), the Thallax equivalently is cheaper, has more wounds, multiple attacks per turn and is able to land in the midst the enemy forces almost at will, meaning that it will (usually) arrive safely and may function to break enemy formations up and force them to try and deal with the Melta-wielding Thallax trying to pop their vehicles.

 

Oh I don't wanna give that impression. I agree Thallax are much better at hunting tanks than a Thanatar. The only time a Thanatar is better is if they're clustering up a parking lot of AV11/12, in which case his S8 Large Blast is pretty brutal (as blast damage is resolved at full Strength now). 

 

I agree completely that the Thanatar seems to be a great addition to the army on paper, but I haven't found opportunity to test it yet.

 

 

I'm building mine soon, along with the rest of my Mechanicum. Playtesting thus far has me wondering how anyone will kill it. I mean, my Dreadknights in my GK army regularly absorb entire Shooting phases and lose 1-2 wounds. This guy has access to FNP and IWND (via Cyberthurgy), he is T8 with the same 2+/5+ saves, and unlike my DK's he is usually camping back instead of zooming forwards into the range of enemy firepower. You should proxy using another MC model (preferably a tall one, as he is big), give him a go. I think he's borderline broken. 

What experiences do you have with the army to support your case / add to the discussion? I do want to playtest Photon Thrusters. I imagine that in low-point matches where the field is small and the unit count low, it will provide some use in the role you have mentioned, though as the point limit goes up I see the viability and contribution of such a unit dropping.

 

I've proxied both in practise games, I'm still building the legit models. Photon thrusters are variable, although being -2 to cover saves means the wounds usually get through. Blind tests I haven't had much luck with, although when they go off its priceless (like I said earlier, better than Pinning). I've also tested multi-melta and for hunting tanks Thallax are sickening. If you can get a good angle they usually smoke a tank, especially if its already down some HP from other shooting. Again, reliant on hitting first, but when they hit...ouch. 

 

I only played maybe 1000pts, we weren't taking legit forces, I was more practising scenarios (ie how much do they achieve in ideal conditions). I tried against Marines and a few xenos types. Thallax are crazy durable btw, T5 and 3 wounds is absurd, they're basically Ogryns who also shoot well and can move quick. Bullgryns are popular with IG as a tank or even Deathstar at the moment, and their shooting is way worse (shorter ranged, exclusively anti-infantry), plus they're not even Troops choices. 

[Chronozoah]

 

I fail to see how the photon thruster will accomplish nothing against anything but AV13/14 (which it sadly only hurts on 6's, which is more than most S6 can say, but still...urgh). S6 AP2 hurts MC's and infantry, it causes Blind tests (which on low Initiative targets is scary, its worse than Pinning in many ways), and it has the range and platform (Jetpack infantry) to threaten Turn 1 onwards.

I did not specify that the Photon Thruster would contribute nothing (rather, in opting to use and take advantage of such a weapon, two-thirds of your squad are just expensive ablative wounds), but that the two + members besides the wielder will contribute nothing to the fight. The Photon Thruster itself is fine for certain purposes, but long-range suppression is available elsewhere, and if you choose to fire at vehicles (inadvisable given the strength of the weapon, low shot count and the presence of vehicular upgrades and rules which bolster defences and high armour values in general). Opting to fire on vehicles wastes the only particularly useful trait of the Photon Thruster - the ability to blind infantry groups from safety. They'll strip wounds from monstrous creatures and shut down infantry groups when blind takes effect, and that's where it will perform well. Like I said, though, versatility is great, but in trying to make this unit versatile you spend a lot of points and end up with a unit that is merely 'acceptable' or 'decent' at more than one thing, but poor or outright wasteful in several other capacities.

 

I don't like paying Terminator price for units that do nothing for 2-3 turns except look pretty. That's essentially what unupgraded (or Deepstriking) Thallax do. Lightning guns are cool and when they hit, they hit like a truck. But even with BS4, being a one-shot gun is a pain. That's why until you are 24" from the enemy (ie move+shoot), Thallax do nothing but get shot. Granted, they're really good at getting shot, but still. 

I don't like paying similar prices for a unit that generates some early-game advantage (potentially) but which handicaps my unit to some extent in all phases of the game and allows for them to be interfered with, and leaves the impression that other units are more appropriate for suppression. That's basically what Photon Thruster units do. Force you to work with a large handicap and remain mostly useless until they move across the board (meaning they can be fired at, or tied up in combat), for the purposes of making the rest of your unit actually usable (and partially invalidating the advantages of the Photon Thruster) and fielding the Thallax in a role much better suited to other units. At best the configuration and it's implementation seems wasteful and redundant.

In my mind, there are two viable ways to use Thallax. Either you give them photon thruster and use them as fire support for your advance, which they do a fine job of (and they're more mobile and arguably tougher than Myrmidons of both types in that role). Or you give them multi-melta and Deepstrike next to enemy tanks, hopefully getting an angle on the side or rear armour (so you're not hoping for Rends or spiking on the melta roll). Thallax seem designed primary to hunt armour and MC's, they are terrible at killing infantry for the most part (they can suppress with the photon thruster, but they won't kill enough each shooting phase to hold back a numerically superior force). The mutli-laser is awful, and the rad-flamer is on the wrong unit. 

I would argue that the Photon Thruster is on the wrong unit as well, but otherwise we are agreed. 

 

The added mobility of the Thallax units is principally to allow them to cross the board more quickly, which is counter-intuitive with regards to the role of long-range shooting and suppression (the role in which Myrmidons are superior). BS5, Preferred Enemy: Everything, greater amounts of shooting, and will have arguably greater sustain given their ability to remain fully-functional at long-range and a superior armour save. For the Thallax unit to fully contribute by comparison, they need to cross the board (opening them up to much retaliation) and reach a fairly close range (making them more vulnerable to a variety of guns and being charged and locked in combat), whereas the Myrmidons can contribute as much as possible for the unit (which is much, much more at range than the Thallax - more shots from higher basllistic skill with re-rolls), almost immediately with the ability to remain at a safe distance.

 

Your input and experiences are valuable. Do you have anything else to share? And on that note, does anyone else?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I did not specify that the Photon Thruster would contribute nothing (rather, in opting to use and take advantage of such a weapon, two-thirds of your squad are just expensive ablative wounds), but that the two + members besides the wielder will contribute nothing to the fight. The Photon Thruster itself is fine for certain purposes, but long-range suppression is available elsewhere, and if you choose to fire at vehicles (inadvisable given the strength of the weapon, low shot count and the presence of vehicular upgrades and rules which bolster defences and high armour values in general). Opting to fire on vehicles wastes the only particularly useful trait of the Photon Thruster - the ability to blind infantry groups from safety. They'll strip wounds from monstrous creatures and shut down infantry groups when blind takes effect, and that's where it will perform well. Like I said, though, versatility is great, but in trying to make this unit versatile you spend a lot of points and end up with a unit that is merely 'acceptable' or 'decent' at more than one thing, but poor or outright wasteful in several other capacities.

 

Well yeah I wouldn't be using the unit to hunt tanks. If I wanted them to do that I'd take the multi-melta. Most units in 40k (and even 30k) aren't that great against tanks, so I'm okay with Thallax being in that boat too. For engaging anything else though, the photon thruster is perfectly fine, and has a lot of synergy with Djinn Sight and their jetpack mobility. 

I don't like paying similar prices for a unit that generates some early-game advantage (potentially) but which handicaps my unit to some extent in all phases of the game and allows for them to be interfered with, and leaves the impression that other units are more appropriate for suppression. That's basically what Photon Thruster units do. Force you to work with a large handicap and remain mostly useless until they move across the board (meaning they can be fired at, or tied up in combat), for the purposes of making the rest of your unit actually usable (and partially invalidating the advantages of the Photon Thruster) and fielding the Thallax in a role much better suited to other units. At best the configuration and it's implementation seems wasteful and redundant.

 

Against vehicles. That's your point of contention. Mind you, the rest of the unit still have lightning guns, so its not like they can't threaten light vehicles or even transports. 

The added mobility of the Thallax units is principally to allow them to cross the board more quickly, which is counter-intuitive with regards to the role of long-range shooting and suppression (the role in which Myrmidons are superior). BS5, Preferred Enemy: Everything, greater amounts of shooting, and will have arguably greater sustain given their ability to remain fully-functional at long-range and a superior armour save.

 

Not really. Jetpack assault moves are random, sometimes you'll roll low and not even get your move back into cover/behind LoS blocking terrain. If you want a mobile and hard-hitting unit, Ursarax are a million times better and a lot scarier once they hit melee. Jetpack units are only marginally more mobile than normal infantry, Relentless is the main buff they get. 

 

Myrmidons are great, don't get me wrong, but they're a fundamentally different unit. I'd take photon thrusters on them as well. 

For the Thallax unit to fully contribute by comparison, they need to cross the board (opening them up to much retaliation) and reach a fairly close range (making them more vulnerable to a variety of guns and being charged and locked in combat), whereas the Myrmidons can contribute as much as possible for the unit (which is much, much more at range than the Thallax - more shots from higher basllistic skill with re-rolls), almost immediately with the ability to remain at a safe distance.

 

Which makes me feel more and more like I should just bite the bullet and Deepstrike them with multi-melta. As you say, being out of range with the lightning guns is a huge waste. I'm gonna keep experimenting with the photon thrusters on them, but Castellax w/darkfire just keep looking better and better (even longer range, S7 with lance is a lot better, and they're even more resilient). 

 

I'll just state again (in case FW actually lurk on here) that lightning guns are a wasted oppertunity. All they need is either longer range or Heavy 2 and they'd be much more worthwhile. As is, they're worse melta with slightly longer range. The gap between the lightning gun and the multi-melta/photon thruster is huge. 

[Chronozoah]

 

Well yeah I wouldn't be using the unit to hunt tanks. If I wanted them to do that I'd take the multi-melta. Most units in 40k (and even 30k) aren't that great against tanks, so I'm okay with Thallax being in that boat too. For engaging anything else though, the photon thruster is perfectly fine, and has a lot of synergy with Djinn Sight and their jetpack mobility. 

 

Jet packs make the rest of the unit usable rather than improving the performance of the Photon Thruster itself- rather, it will make the unit more vulnerable when they are utilized in this manner (bringing a potentially dangerous long-range weapon close to the enemy). I doubt an opponent will just leave the unit alone when it has the potential to blind units and strip wounds from high-toughness models. It's a risky venture, but an unfortunate necessity given that otherwise, as has been discussed (to death), the rest of the unit does nothing, so you're obliged to get that unit close to the enemy, which is somewhat of a shame.

 

Against vehicles. That's your point of contention. Mind you, the rest of the unit still have lightning guns, so its not like they can't threaten light vehicles or even transports. 

No, not simply against a vehicles. A unit which spends the early-game mostly useless and only becomes useful when you override the usefulness of the only previously useful component, is by definition wasteful. Add to this the fact that long-range shooting and suppression platforms are found elsewhere and the configuration is by definition somewhat redundant. The point of contention is that this role is best left to others, and by forcing it on the Thallax you handicap them to some extent for the ability to generate some advantage that would be better and more easily achieved elsewhere. That the unit will barely scratch the higher-end spectrum of vehicles (or ones with special wargear such as Quantum Shielding) is merely one additional problem.

 

Not really. Jetpack assault moves are random, sometimes you'll roll low and not even get your move back into cover/behind LoS blocking terrain. If you want a mobile and hard-hitting unit, Ursarax are a million times better and a lot scarier once they hit melee. Jetpack units are only marginally more mobile than normal infantry, Relentless is the main buff they get. 

 

Myrmidons are great, don't get me wrong, but they're a fundamentally different unit. I'd take photon thrusters on them as well.  

You're comparing the Thallax to the Myrmidon Destructors in terms of mobility - I was merely drawing attention to the fact that the added mobility of the Thallax will only actually serve them use in trying to close the gap as quickly as possible to bring the Lightning Guns in range, which is great and all, but Myrmidons don't have that problem to begin with. This in addition to their superior ballistic skill, re-rolls and superior firepower means that the Myrmidons definitely win out as long-range gunners or suppression units. In a direct comparison between Thallax Cohorts and Myrmidon Destructors in the context of this loadout and combat methodology, the Myrmidons seem undeniably better. Another thing to consider is that the Myrmidons can have mismatched weaponry, so you could still take a single Photon Thruster and stick another long-range weapon on the rest, giving you access to long-range blinding potential and firepower from relative safety.

Which makes me feel more and more like I should just bite the bullet and Deepstrike them with multi-melta. As you say, being out of range with the lightning guns is a huge waste. I'm gonna keep experimenting with the photon thrusters on them, but Castellax w/darkfire just keep looking better and better (even longer range, S7 with lance is a lot better, and they're even more resilient). 

 

I'll just state again (in case FW actually lurk on here) that lightning guns are a wasted oppertunity. All they need is either longer range or Heavy 2 and they'd be much more worthwhile. As is, they're worse melta with slightly longer range. The gap between the lightning gun and the multi-melta/photon thruster is huge. 

 

I would definitely test both configurations thoroughly if time permits, but would strongly advise you to try playing around with the Myrmidon Destructor options and see if you can come up with something you wouldn't mind deploying. Like I said, you could always give one a Photon Thruster and the other two Volkite Culverins, Conversion Beamers or something (depending on your preference for targets). Darkfire Cannon looks crazy good against high-toughness models and low AV vehicles and interestingly, costs less than the Photon Thruster. In fact, fielding a Castellax maniple consisting of two models and equipping one with the Darkfire Cannon will give you a unit that is overall tougher (9 T5 wounds vs. 8 T7 wounds, and the Castellax has a better armour save and better invul. save against shooting), and will absolutely tear things to pieces in close combat and will be able to do what the Photon Thruster Thallax did but better, for only 30 points more (granted, finding that much room with our unit costs can be difficult, heh).