Mechanicum Thallax Cohorts - Discussion

[Battybattybats]

"I was merely drawing attention to the fact that the added mobility of the Thallax will only actually serve them use in trying to close the gap as quickly as possible to bring the Lightning Guns in range, which is great and all, but Myrmidons don't have that problem to begin with"

Or could be used to pop out of then back into LOS-blocking cover. The modern edition equivalent of the skimmer old pop-up attack used by Eldar armies in 2nd ed. Giving them the capacity to harangue and irritate and goad the enemy and to endure longer by attacking and then being unable to be struck back.

[Chronozoah]

You would have to take care so as to not interfere with your own shooting, and the aforementioned paradigm poses the problem of  'until I get close to the enemy, two-thirds of my unit is useless', and so any delays actively interfere with your efforts to get close and unlock the usefulness of the unit. There are measures one may take to compensate, as you mentioned, but there are no definitive solutions which would help the unit out that don't interfere with it's two primary objectives: blinding enemy units on approach, and getting close to the enemy and putting all of your guns to use. Resting in cover might spare the units a few wounds or even death, or, more likely, it will signal to the enemy to focus fire on your other units while the Thallax unit is sitting in cover, unable to accomplish too much until it gets closer. That would be my worry if you attempted to repeat this tactic.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

et packs make the rest of the unit usable rather than improving the performance of the Photon Thruster itself- rather, it will make the unit more vulnerable when they are utilized in this manner (bringing a potentially dangerous long-range weapon close to the enemy). I doubt an opponent will just leave the unit alone when it has the potential to blind units and strip wounds from high-toughness models. It's a risky venture, but an unfortunate necessity given that otherwise, as has been discussed (to death), the rest of the unit does nothing, so you're obliged to get that unit close to the enemy, which is somewhat of a shame.

 

Well not really. As you yourself point out, you have to close with the enemy to get those lightning guns online anyway, so my strategy doesn't change. Anyway, Thallax are pretty tough, it's not the worst thing if they get shot up but your robots don't. In terms of target priority, Thallax already draw a lot of fire because of their statline and the potential of their guns to wreck expensive vehicles with ease. The photon thruster doesn't really make them more of a target than they already are. 

o, not simply against a vehicles. A unit which spends the early-game mostly useless and only becomes useful when you override the usefulness of the only previously useful component, is by definition wasteful. Add to this the fact that long-range shooting and suppression platforms are found elsewhere and the configuration is by definition somewhat redundant. The point of contention is that this role is best left to others, and by forcing it on the Thallax you handicap them to some extent for the ability to generate some advantage that would be better and more easily achieved elsewhere. That the unit will barely scratch the higher-end spectrum of vehicles (or ones with special wargear such as Quantum Shielding) is merely one additional problem.

 

Thallax spend the early game entirely useless, due to their 18" range or being in Reserves waiting to Deepstrike in. Photon thrusters let you do something Turn 1 to enemy units, and Blind can be clutch if it goes off. Yes, Destructors are better, but they're also slower and less tough (armour saves are rapidly become redundant in both 30k and 40k sadly, so more wounds = better usually), plus they're a Heavy choice, not Troops. Also, most units do zero damage to high AV anyway, so whilst gambling on 6's isn't especially viable, its the same odds as Rending. Stripping a few HP off a high AV target is better than nothing, although I'd only be shooting such things with photon thrusters if I had no other viable targets. 

You're comparing the Thallax to the Myrmidon Destructors in terms of mobility - I was merely drawing attention to the fact that the added mobility of the Thallax will only actually serve them use in trying to close the gap as quickly as possible to bring the Lightning Guns in range, which is great and all, but Myrmidons don't have that problem to begin with. This in addition to their superior ballistic skill, re-rolls and superior firepower means that the Myrmidons definitely win out as long-range gunners or suppression units. In a direct comparison between Thallax Cohorts and Myrmidon Destructors in the context of this loadout and combat methodology, the Myrmidons seem undeniably better. Another thing to consider is that the Myrmidons can have mismatched weaponry, so you could still take a single Photon Thruster and stick another long-range weapon on the rest, giving you access to long-range blinding potential and firepower from relative safety.

 

The photon thruster is long range though, 48" is enough to hit most things Turn 1 unless they deploy very defensively deep in their DZ. 

I'm not going to argue Destructors aren't better fire support, but they're also not as tough nor do they occupy Troops. Having two units doing something Turn 1 is better than one, even if the Thallax achieve less. I wouldn't be mixing weapons on Destructors in any case. 

I would definitely test both configurations thoroughly if time permits, but would strongly advise you to try playing around with the Myrmidon Destructor options and see if you can come up with something you wouldn't mind deploying. Like I said, you could always give one a Photon Thruster and the other two Volkite Culverins, Conversion Beamers or something (depending on your preference for targets). Darkfire Cannon looks crazy good against high-toughness models and low AV vehicles and interestingly, costs less than the Photon Thruster. In fact, fielding a Castellax maniple consisting of two models and equipping one with the Darkfire Cannon will give you a unit that is overall tougher (9 T5 wounds vs. 8 T7 wounds, and the Castellax has a better armour save and better invul. save against shooting), and will absolutely tear things to pieces in close combat and will be able to do what the Photon Thruster Thallax did but better, for only 30 points more (granted, finding that much room with our unit costs can be difficult, heh).

 

Yeah Castellax are absurd, no question. In terms of competitiveness, I think they're better than Thallax in many ways. However, I like variety, and I think Thallax do offer some cool tricks Castellax can't compete with. Also, Castellax maniples still need to be babysit by a Magos so they don't herpaderp into Programmed Behaviour. Thallax don't have that problem. Pros and cons to both I think. 

 

The more I discuss this with you I'm inclined to agree its multi-melta or bust :( it just suits their attack plan much better. It's also cheaper than the thruster. 

[Chronozoah]

Well not really. As you yourself point out, you have to close with the enemy to get those lightning guns online anyway, so my strategy doesn't change. Anyway, Thallax are pretty tough, it's not the worst thing if they get shot up but your robots don't. In terms of target priority, Thallax already draw a lot of fire because of their statline and the potential of their guns to wreck expensive vehicles with ease. The photon thruster doesn't really make them more of a target than they already are.

That would depend on the situation, I'd imagine. If your Photon Thruster is managing to blind choice targets in the enemy force, they might feel more inclined to shut down that particular unit. The strategy doesn't change, but it is unfortunate that it is the way it must be done in the first place if you want the rest of the unit to be functional.

Thallax spend the early game entirely useless, due to their 18" range or being in Reserves waiting to Deepstrike in. Photon thrusters let you do something Turn 1 to enemy units, and Blind can be clutch if it goes off. Yes, Destructors are better, but they're also slower and less tough (armour saves are rapidly become redundant in both 30k and 40k sadly, so more wounds = better usually), plus they're a Heavy choice, not Troops. Also, most units do zero damage to high AV anyway, so whilst gambling on 6's isn't especially viable, its the same odds as Rending. Stripping a few HP off a high AV target is better than nothing, although I'd only be shooting such things with photon thrusters if I had no other viable targets.

One thing you didn't factor in to the toughness disparity between Thallax and Myrmidons is that the Myrmidons can safely camp at range and launch their (vastly) superior fusillade of firepower from relative safety. The Thallax units having to cross the board (while outputting far less) puts them at great risk of being shot or tied up by conventional weaponry. In this regard, the lower mobility (and to a lesser extent, the difference in wounds) is not as important as it might seem. As far as the rest of this segment goes, I've contested those points to a sufficient degree (and a sufficient amount of times) that I do not feel obliged to counter them again in any great detail. The configuration seems wasteful and other things shoot better, even if you can instigate some small amount of early-game advantage (again, easier done by other units). You could generate more of an early-game advantage by doing something else and adding a new dimension to your strategy.

I'm not going to argue Destructors aren't better fire support, but they're also not as tough nor do they occupy Troops. Having two units doing something Turn 1 is better than one, even if the Thallax achieve less. I wouldn't be mixing weapons on Destructors in any case.

Not necessarily, when that something would probably be rather meager when compared to what other things could bring to the table if you had spent those points elsewhere.

Yeah Castellax are absurd, no question. In terms of competitiveness, I think they're better than Thallax in many ways. However, I like variety, and I think Thallax do offer some cool tricks Castellax can't compete with. Also, Castellax maniples still need to be babysit by a Magos so they don't herpaderp into Programmed Behaviour. Thallax don't have that problem. Pros and cons to both I think.

The more I discuss this with you I'm inclined to agree its multi-melta or bust it just suits their attack plan much better. It's also cheaper than the thruster.

Definitely pros and cons. I'm considering trying to field the Castellax in groups of two and equipping each with a Darkfire Cannon and Flamer so that I have plenty of shooting options for combat against a wide variety of unit types and the ability to harm vehicles with high AV. I also have a variety of ranges over which I can operate and a powerful overwatch fire (my apologies, bad pun). Also should one Castellax fall I will not lose full combat effectiveness as the Darkfire Cannons and Flamers are distributed across the unit.

My mind powers are working!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 That would depend on the situation, I'd imagine. If your Photon Thruster is managing to blind choice targets in the enemy force, they might feel more inclined to shut down that particular unit. The strategy doesn't change, but it is unfortunate that it is the way it must be done in the first place if you want the rest of the unit to be functional.

 

No point second-guessing opponents you may never have. Point is, either choice benefits you. Either they focus down your Thallax but that leaves your robots and other support units less shot up, or they try and engage both and do little damage to either. 

One thing you didn't factor in to the toughness disparity between Thallax and Myrmidons is that the Myrmidons can safely camp at range and launch their (vastly) superior fusillade of firepower from relative safety. The Thallax units having to cross the board (while outputting far less) puts them at great risk of being shot or tied up by conventional weaponry. In this regard, the lower mobility (and to a lesser extent, the difference in wounds) is not as important as it might seem.

 

For maybe 1-2 turns. There are viable assault builds in 40k and 30k that can get to you in two turns, if not one. It's like saying Devastators are obviously superior to Sternguard, because they have twice the range and twice the heavy weapon access, and can therefore camp at a safe distance. Yet, in most competitive Marine builds, Pod Sternguard with combi-melta do an exceptional amount of work for the army. Whereas Devastators probably get the award for 'most improved' in their recent codex update, but they're still completely outclassed by Sternguard and Centurions in the 'shooty support' role. 

 

Melee is still a thing, and tying up backfield units/slaughtering them is a real danger for any gunline list. Destructors have powerfists its true, but they go last, and having only 3+ armour still leaves a lot of power weapons or even just massed attacks able to bring them down before they can even swing. Obliterators they aint. 

As far as the rest of this segment goes, I've contested those points to a sufficient degree (and a sufficient amount of times) that I do not feel obliged to counter them again in any great detail. The configuration seems wasteful and other things shoot better, even if you can instigate some small amount of early-game advantage (again, easier done by other units). You could generate more of an early-game advantage by doing something else and adding a new dimension to your strategy.

 

I accept your surrender ;) in all seriousness, perhaps its best we just agree to disagree. When I finally assemble the full list I'll be posting batreps and the truth of whether photon thruster is all that great will come out. I agree we've probably exhausted the theoretical aspects of the argument. 

 

Not necessarily, when that something would probably be rather meager when compared to what other things could bring to the table if you had spent those points elsewhere.

 

 

Early-game shooting usually is pretty small for most armies, so I'm okay with that. I play Knights so I'm used to maybe 1-2 units actually being in range Turn 1. 

Definitely pros and cons. I'm considering trying to field the Castellax in groups of two and equipping each with a Darkfire Cannon and Flamer so that I have plenty of shooting options for combat against a wide variety of unit types and the ability to harm vehicles with high AV. I also have a variety of ranges over which I can operate and a powerful overwatch fire (my apologies, bad pun). Also should one Castellax fall I will not lose full combat effectiveness as the Darkfire Cannons and Flamers are distributed across the unit. 

 

I'm gonna test that myself, but I get the feeling splitting them up into lone wolves has advantages because it means you dilute enemy fire, and you can split fire if need be. 

[Chronozoah]

I accept your surrender

Too late:

The more I discuss this with you I'm inclined to agree its multi-melta or bust it just suits their attack plan much better. It's also cheaper than the thruster.

I've already accepted your surrender.

At any rate, you are correct. The most recent post started veering off topic and it's fairly evident that this discussion has run in circles and there isn't much more to cover in terms of the theoretical. Thank you for the discussion, it was most enlightening. I just hope people weren't put off by the notion of a wall-of-text war happening in this topic and that they are free to share their insights and experiences.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've already accepted your surrender.

I said 'inclined' ;)

At any rate, you are correct. The most recent post started veering off topic and it's fairly evident that this discussion has run in circles and there isn't much more to cover in terms of the theoretical. Thank you for the discussion, it was most enlightening. I just hope people weren't put off by the notion of a wall-of-text war happening in this topic and that they are free to share their insights and experiences.

Eh, I do this on a regular basis on the GK forum, and I got promoted :P . In any case, neither of us got personal about our game of toy soldiers, so no harm done. If nothing else maybe it'll give other people ideas. Thanks for being a considerate dissenter.

Now, report to the nearest Malagra temple for thought re-conditioning ;)

[Chronozoah]

You acknowledged that it suits their attack plan better. That is more than sufficient for me, haha. If you're set on blinding as a tactic, you could always load up on Photon Thruster Thallaxii, Myrmidon Destructors and Darkfire Castellax for a blind-all-comers list.

 

When I started out I had the aspiration of one day becoming a moderator for the Adeptus Mechanicus section. Unfortunately, the section doesn't seem active enough to warrant a dedicated moderator at this moment in time, so I am content with remaining in the background, jumping in and arguing lending assistance when required.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You acknowledged that it suits their attack plan better. That is more than sufficient for me, haha. If you're set on blinding as a tactic, you could always load up on Photon Thruster Thallaxi, Myrmidon Destructors and Darkfire Castellax for a blind-all-comers list.

 

I'm seriously considering it. Blinding Riptides, Wraithknights, heavy weapon units etc is all pretty relevant. 

When I started out I had the aspiration of one day becoming a moderator for the Adeptus Mechanicus section. Unfortunately, the section doesn't seem active enough to warrant a dedicated moderator at this moment in time, so I am content with remaining in the background, jumping in and arguing lending assistance when required.

 

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about it. As you say the AdMech forum is pretty quiet normally. Being a helpful contributor is fine, it's the lifeblood of any forum :)

[Chronozoah]

I would imagine that the viability of blinding as a designated strategy improves exponentially with investment. Have you found opportunity to test this? Also, by extension, has anyone else obtained any further knowledge or experience with regards to fielding the Thallaxii?

[Terminus]

This is an old thread, but I was wondering if anyone had new insight, now that Thallax are comparatively cheaper with the new red book?

 

A lot of the principles in this thread I feel still apply. 

 

Castellax are still the best platform for photon weaponry (although a single photon thruster mixed in with a bunch of graviton imploders in a myrmidon squad is worth mention). One thing not mentioned in this thread is that trying to eke out performance by "giving them something to do turn 1", you actually give up a very important action, and that is running.  More dice is always better, and that extra D6" of terrain-ignoring movement can make all the difference in being in position to threaten something on turn two if you choose not to deep strike.  Assuming average rolls, a run in the first turn means you'll likely be able to hit a target that is 40" away from where you deployed. 

 

Personally I've had good success with the plasma fusil.  With 3 shots, it goes a long way to give the unit more punch against infantry, and AP3 has great synergy with the -2 cover.  As our only mobile and resilient scoring unit, Thallax need to be going after objectives, where you will inevitably find (you guessed it) infantry that really dislikes S6 AP3 -2 cover fire.  Yes, the lightning cannons are basically ablative wounds as always, although on occasion they will rend out the artificer sergeant for the glory of the Omnissiah.  With the reduced cost, I'm tempted to take destructor on this unit too.  Against something like a rhino or rear armor, the three plasma fusil shots may well be more lethal than that single multi-melta. Against armoured ceramite, both units are relatively useless (the melta unit averages .6 glances) at range.  I'm a big proponent of melta bombs on this unit, not so much for any opportunities to charge an enemy (which should be few if you are dancing with their range), but rather any monstrous creatures or dreadnoughts that engage them.  For 160 points with plasma fusil and melta-bombs (or destructor), you get a solid scoring unit that is resilient, mobile and flexible.  Certainly better than 160 points for 10 bolter dudes with a vexilla.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I personally love the Thallax model, and I can't wait to see what possibilities await 40k mechanicus when the rumored IA book hits that is supposedly adding in a lot of 30k stuff. My hope is that they will be troop or elite choices for the Cult Mechanicus faction so I can field them in a War Convocation. Thallax with Canticles of the Omnissiah? Sounds hilariously good to me, and it will hopefully give us some nice agile troops that don't die to a stiff wind.

 

I've been thinking long and hard about fielding a Jetpack Archmagos Prime with a unit of 6 thallax for a plasma overload unit, I have yet to really work out if they'll draw too much attention to really be worth it.

6 Thallax with 2 Plasma Fusils

Archmagos Prime Myrmidax w/ 2 Plasma Fusils, Cyber Familiar, Jet Pack, Power Fist

This would be 12 strength 6 ap 3 shots, 6 of which hit on 3s with -2 cover, and 6 more that are BS5 that can precision shot on 5s or 6s. It feels like its good, but sinking that many points into the Magos also feels like a trap. Anything that might insta-kill the Magos I can pass off to a T5 Thallax but still, I've had my fair share of 2+ 3++ characters die on me. 

[GogglesDown]

I picked up two squads with plasma fusils for the reasons you mentioned. I started my Mechanicum with a Cybernetica force but am concerned about fighting dreadnoughts in zm since I probably won't bring darkfire castellax in zm but stick to mauller bolt canons. Melta bombs might be the way to go.

[Terminus]

I wouldn't want to engage a dreadnought with Thallax, as it will go before they will, and each wound will splat one.  Why not bring darkfire?  Terminators are real popular in ZM, and you can blind stuff every now and then. 

[BassWave]

I personally love the idea of running 6 thallax with chainblades, and Ferrox upgrade for rage and rending. Sure Ursarax do it better, but I can't take them as troops. Besides, the thallax would still be a legitimate that to vehicles with 24 s7 rending attacks to the rear. Join a jetpack cc magos with a rad upgrade and watch them tear through tactical blobs!