Wolf Scouts an infiltrating in 7th edition.

[Spazmonkey]

 

With 7th edition it seems to me with many of the mission objectives and random objectives by player turn, that getting to and holding an objective has become more important.

 

Based on this, do you think that Wolf scouts once again have a role to play here.

Our scouts are lucky in the fact they have full WS/BS and have access to a range of special weapons and heavy weapons. 

 

Not only can they infiltrate to Hold an objective from the first turn, but they have the fire power to hold it for a turn or two untill back up arrives.

 

Thoughts ideas?

[Valerian]

We'll see in a few weeks.

[Spazmonkey]

I meant Based on our current codex. And assuming our scouts don't Change to much in the coming Codex.

[Vash113]

Honestly I'm not so sure they are going to be more useful in that capacity than as harassment or assassination. They don't have the numbers or armor to take all but the most cursory of punishment and their point of arrival is not as reliable as I'd want to use them to grab objectives. If so then I think that usefulness will be relatively situational.

[Spazmonkey]

From a space wolf point of view they can take what 10 models? and a wolf Guard or Character. A meltagun or flamer, a rocket launcher and 2 plasma pistols? thats a bit of punch in a unit

plus whatever the Character carries. WS and BS 4. the main issue is going to be the 4 up save...

 

With infiltrate the point of arrival is not really an issue is it? 

[skeletoro]

I'm all set to build 10 wolf scouts using a kit of SM scouts and a kit of scions. But I'm waiting for the codex to drop. If they're really appealing in the new codex I'll be pushing them right up to the front of my crazily long to-do list, hehe. Otherwise the bits will remain sealed away in my handy-dandy zip lock band for several months longer.

 

Not much point discussing the current rules, really. Unless we're discussing how we hope those rules to change/be improved upon in the coming weeks.

 

Personally I'm REALLY hoping wolf scouts get a boost. 

[Vash113]

From a space wolf point of view they can take what 10 models? and a wolf Guard or Character. A meltagun or flamer, a rocket launcher and 2 plasma pistols? thats a bit of punch in a unit

plus whatever the Character carries. WS and BS 4. the main issue is going to be the 4 up save...

 

With infiltrate the point of arrival is not really an issue is it? 

 

Except Infiltrating into position heavily depends on where your opponent sets up, and it can easily leave a squishy unit isolated and easy pickings. Plus infiltrate can't put the unit where they need to be to secure tactical objectives which only come into play as the game progresses.

[Spazmonkey]

 

From a space wolf point of view they can take what 10 models? and a wolf Guard or Character. A meltagun or flamer, a rocket launcher and 2 plasma pistols? thats a bit of punch in a unit

plus whatever the Character carries. WS and BS 4. the main issue is going to be the 4 up save...

 

With infiltrate the point of arrival is not really an issue is it? 

 

Except Infiltrating into position heavily depends on where your opponent sets up, and it can easily leave a squishy unit isolated and easy pickings. Plus infiltrate can't put the unit where they need to be to secure tactical objectives which only come into play as the game progresses.

 

 

Yeah Fair call...

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

i think the way they could be fixed to be more survivable is allow each member of the squad to take a pet fenrissian wolf at +6 points. therefor giving scouts more bodies to survive that little bit longer. but we will have to see if GW feels the same.

[Spazmonkey]

I know fluff and the game dont often match up. but i love the way camo cloaks work in the fluff.

 

I always liked the idea of Scouts always having a cover save even in the open, Rather than cloaks adding to the existing cover save, Like always having a minimum cover save of 4+ or something, even in open ground.

 

That way you can move them in the open and still get a 4+ armour or 4+ cover save.

[Vash113]

I know fluff and the game dont often match up. but i love the way camo cloaks work in the fluff.

 

I always liked the idea of Scouts always having a cover save even in the open, Rather than cloaks adding to the existing cover save, Like always having a minimum cover save of 4+ or something, even in open ground.

 

That way you can move them in the open and still get a 4+ armour or 4+ cover save.

 

I believe that is how camo cloaks work now. They give the model shrouded which grants +1 to the cover save, even if they didn't already have one. Meaning that in the open they still have a 6+ cover save. It's not as good as a 4+ but they then could go to ground and make it a 5+. But that's in the open. In decent cover with shrouded and go to ground a model can gain a 2+ cover save. This can be very helpful in holding a bit of ground. Unfortunately our Wolf Scouts don't get camo cloaks.

[Spazmonkey]

I guess im just clutching at straws. with the ability to have grey hunters and other units flanking now I think scouts are just suffering. They really need something extra that makes them worth taking again.

even if we got Camo cloaks I just dont think there is much value in them any more.

 

Its a shame as i love wolf scouts, and would love to have them in my lost.

 

Guess i'm just looking for a reason but not able to find it....

[skeletoro]

it's not shrouded - it is just a +1. Shrouded is +2. Stealth is +1 but camo cloaks stack with stealth/shrouded. With all 3 you would have a 3+ cover save out in the open.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

i hate the idea of a cover save, to me it doesn't make sense.....

 

I wish 7th ed had of enabled all saves to be taken, but removed cover save for a different effect.

 

By that i mean replace the cover save with a penalty to the attackers hit dice.

So light cover -1 BS, Heavy cover -2 BS, Fortification -3 BS (maybe bring in an extended BS table that accounts for negative BS e.g.: BS 0 needs 6+ then 2+, -1 needs 6+/3+ etc)

 

Then saves would be done in the following order:

Invulnerable>Armour>Feel no Pain.

Dodge (Rangnar) would be made into a -1 BS effect

 

So Terminators always roll their 5+ invuln first then their AC save 

 

Then you can make some new weapon effects on some weapons like bypass shield saves, e.g. plasma might have a -1 to invulnerable saves making them the ultimate anti terminator weapons

Ctan phase Swords could go back to bypassing both armour and Invulnerable saves

And while your at it, bring back the old -1 AC from a big chopper.

 

The reason for this Logic is simple. you roll to hit, do you hit the target, yes or no? yes, then you have hit, not hit the direction he's in, you have hit him, so you have already been accurate enough to bypass the cover, hence why -BS to shots when cover is in the way makes more sense

 

So back to the order...

Do you hit?

• No, (you missed)
• Yes (continue on)

Does your opponents shield absorb the shot?

• Yes (he's alive)
• No (continue on)
• he doesn't have one (continue on)

Does your opponents armour Stop the shot?

• Yes (he's alive)
• It ignores it (he takes a wound)
• No (he takes a wound)

Does your opponent have feel no pain to shrug of damage?

• No (he takes a wound)
• Yes (make the save or he takes the wound)
• The shot causes instant death (he's dead, or takes 1 wound if he has eternal warrior)

[Vash113]

I think cover saves are an easy way to take terrain into account without dealing with modifiers which I think would just complicate and slow the game down even more.

 

As for the logic behind it think of it this way, the shot hits the opponent but passes through cover to do it, some shots might punch through with enough force to still do damage while others are deflected or absorbed by the intervening object.

 

If you play modern shooters many of them have mechanics for shooting through cover but damage is reduced. So you can hit enemies crouched behind cover but it takes more shots to bring them down, same idea.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

i think GW thinks their Customers incapable of basic maths, as if saying "i am behind tress, so you get -1 BS your marines hit on 4's now" is harder then a 5+ save.

and time wise its 1 less roll to deal with during combat.

[Vash113]

i think GW thinks their Customers incapable of basic maths, as if saying "i am behind tress, so you get -1 BS your marines hit on 4's now" is harder then a 5+ save.

and time wise its 1 less roll to deal with during combat.

 

It's the same number of rolls, you either take armor or cover, it would only be one less if the shot would deny armor saves but not cover. Everybody still only gets one saving throw.

 

And while the math might be simple it would still make things more complicated. Currently ballistic skill is easy to calculate even for noobs. 7 minus the BS equals what you need to hit. Plus in most cases you establish what save each piece of cover grants and that's it, if it was 4+ at the beginning of the game it's 4+ at the end. Few things modify this. That's a lot easier to manage than having to remember ballistic skill modifiers spread across multiple armies. For instance Eldar Autarchs, Aspect Warriors and Guardians all hit on different ballistic skills and then adding modifiers would certainly give me a headache after a while, then determining majority cover, units half in half out and potentially having to roll shots individually.

 

Yea the cover save system might not be the best but I do think it's less complicated and more effective than a modifier system. I don't even like that kind of system when it comes to wounding in Fantasy. Even veteran Fantasy players I see have to keep recalculating and comparing strengths, strength modifiers, toughness's and thus armor save modifiers every... single... round of combat. It does certainly slow things down IMHO.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

 

i think GW thinks their Customers incapable of basic maths, as if saying "i am behind tress, so you get -1 BS your marines hit on 4's now" is harder then a 5+ save.

and time wise its 1 less roll to deal with during combat.

 

It's the same number of rolls, you either take armor or cover, it would only be one less if the shot would deny armor saves but not cover. Everybody still only gets one saving throw.

 

And while the math might be simple it would still make things more complicated. Currently ballistic skill is easy to calculate even for noobs. 7 minus the BS equals what you need to hit. Plus in most cases you establish what save each piece of cover grants and that's it, if it was 4+ at the beginning of the game it's 4+ at the end. Few things modify this. That's a lot easier to manage than having to remember ballistic skill modifiers spread across multiple armies. For instance Eldar Autarchs, Aspect Warriors and Guardians all hit on different ballistic skills and then adding modifiers would certainly give me a headache after a while, then determining majority cover, units half in half out and potentially having to roll shots individually.

 

Yea the cover save system might not be the best but I do think it's less complicated and more effective than a modifier system. I don't even like that kind of system when it comes to wounding in Fantasy. Even veteran Fantasy players I see have to keep recalculating and comparing strengths, strength modifiers, toughness's and thus armor save modifiers every... single... round of combat. It does certainly slow things down IMHO.

 

 

 

How is it any harder then now, it is just a simple equation: 

Light cover (Night fighting, trees, obscured vehicles, stealth suit blur)   -1 BS

Medium cover (ruins, trenches, harlequin holo fields)  -2 BS

Heavy cover (Aegis defence Line, Fortifications) -3 BS

Psychic Powers    an additional  -1 BS

Stealth    an additional -1 BS

 

 

Just maths wise in the current system vs my system the odds are as follows:

 

In Light cover (5+ save at the moment, -1BS in my system)

HQ (BS5) Old system: (2+ hits) so 5/6 hits, 1/3 blocked = 10/18 hits   HQ New System: (3+ to hit), so 2/3 hots    so 0.56 vs 0.66 so a big improvement

Marines Old System: (3+ hit) 2/3 hits, 1/3 blocked = 4/9 hits   Marines New System: (4+ hit), so 1/2 hits              so 0.45 vs 0.5 so a slight improvement

Guard/Tau Old System: (4+ hit) 1/2 hits, 1/3 blocked = 1/3 hits   Guard/Tau New System: (5+ hit) so 1/3 hits       so no change

Orks Old System: (5+ hit) 1/3 hits, 1/3 blocked = 2/9 hits    Orks New System:  (6+ hit) so 1/6 hits                      so 0.222 to 0.167 so a slight loss

 

what this shows is average BS is unchanged, however a higher BS becomes more valuable as those who are btter shots are better at hitting the target in those small windows of opportunity

however armour becomes a bigger focus as small arms fire has less of an impact on armoured troops as they now get both effects of cover and a save, while unarmoured troops will find light cover very ineffective if they don't have some sort of stealth rule or camo cloaks.

 

In Medium cover (4+ save at the moment, -2BS in my system) (or light cover with a stealth rule.

HQ (BS5) Old system: (2+ hits) so 5/6 hits, 1/2 blocked = 5/12 hits   HQ New System: (4+ to hit), so 1/2 hots    so 0.417 vs 0.5 so a big improvement

Marines Old System: (3+ hit) 2/3 hits, 1/2 blocked = 1/3 hits   Marines New System: (5+ hit), so 1/3 hits              so no change

Guard/Tau Old System: (4+ hit) 1/2 hits, 1/2 blocked = 1/4 hits   Guard/Tau New System: (6+ hit) so 1/6 hits       so slightly harder to hit

Orks Old System: (5+ hit) 1/3 hits, 1/2 blocked = 1/6 hits    Orks New System:  (assume BS can't be reduced below 1) (6+ hit) so 1/6 hits      so no changeimprovement

 

what occurs is lucky shots will always be that 1/6 chance but there is less of a change however as cover becomes better the odds get even worse to hit, meaning decent cover like ruins will have a bigger impact, and light cover will have less of an impact, but the impact it's self will be small

[Vash113]

 

How is it any harder then now, it is just a simple equation: 

Light cover (Night fighting, trees, obscured vehicles, stealth suit blur)   -1 BS

Medium cover (ruins, trenches, harlequin holo fields)  -2 BS

Heavy cover (Aegis defence Line, Fortifications) -3 BS

Psychic Powers    an additional  -1 BS

Stealth    an additional -1 BS

 

 

Yea that's not simpler, it's just not.

 

And again you just aren't considering the on the fly calculations that have to be made. Players are still going to have to subtract the ballistic skill of shooting units as they go and no matter how utterly simple that calculation is, it still slows things down. Having to factor in a modifier is just always going to take longer and be more complicated than simply rolling a set save. I've seen it play out that way in Fantasy all the time.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

if your friends take longer then 5 seconds to figure out what a number between 1 and 10 becomes after subtract 1 or 2.

then you need to stop hanging out with kindergarden kids.

 

 

seriously working out BS 4 -1 is 3 or BS 4 - 2 is 2 takes no more effort then, do i get a 4+ or a 5+ cover save, and is my armour save better then that?

 

add i wager that 90% of games would be quicker as most people can do the equation in 0.5-3 seconds, it takes people 10-20 seconds to roll 10 dice and remove the failed rolls.

[Valerian]

++Let's get back on the topic of Wolf Scouts and Infiltration, if anybody has something to add to that discussion.  Please take the discussion on how to change the Cover Save mechanic to PM, or over to the Homegrown Rules subforum.++

 

V

[JCarter]

That's true and I regularly encounter 3+ and 2+ cover saves in the open.