Stormwolf or Stormfang?

[Spazmonkey]

Yeah Im seeing a list with 2 land raiders, 2 stormwolfs and a couple of dreadnaughts in it.......

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

i like the idea of an Iron priest inside the flyer to repair it, thats just nasty.

the stormwolf will be better of with 15 blood claws at 180 points

the stormfang is the one to save points on so if you want a scoring capability take 5 blood claws at 60 points

 

 

@Iacton, thats what i thought, so you can have a flyer that can jinx, still shoot it's ordnance and repair through use of an iron priest, its going to be hard to kill a gunship like that.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

Yeah, hopefully the Iron Priest is an IC this time around or at least can be assigned to a pack somehow.

[Spazmonkey]

Yeah, hopefully the Iron Priest is an IC this time around or at least can be assigned to a pack somehow.

 

I agree. If they are cheap as well they could be well worth taking again.

[JCarter]

Sounds like everyone's underrating the Hellfire lance weapon. I encounter lots of armor 14 (Landraiders, Lemans Russ) and the lance makes a critical difference by reducing all that to armor 12 and giving me a +2 on the damage roll.

[Nrthstar]

As I've gotten quite handy with magnets, I've been conceptualizing this process, but it ain't gonna be easy. Most likely the bottom end, or bucket, will be one piece, but I'll need to glue in two support X struts to keep it's shape to replace the lack thereof of the top and front/back. I'll have to ensure the front doors of the wolf can be attached to the top and the back doors attach to the fang top. Then the cockpit will have to be desperately magnetized since it likely only comes with one. I think it's doable, but it all "hinges" *yukyuk on whether the doors can be attached to the top plate alone.

 

Outside of that, I'm thinking the wolf. I have plenty of las and meltas already on the ground for av14, plus, on average, I'm only going to face 1 av14 model a game, and arjac and his pod of GH with a melta usually eats that. As others have said too, reliable fire is better rated than a lance usr. Glad to see everyone's input though!

[Teetengee]

The potms discussion in OR got pretty heated, you may not want to start it here. But keep in mind that POTMS does not specifically mention snap shots...

[Squark]

Sounds like everyone's underrating the Hellfire lance weapon. I encounter lots of armor 14 (Landraiders, Lemans Russ) and the lance makes a critical difference by reducing all that to armor 12 and giving me a +2 on the damage roll.

The question is, is a lance weapon worth losing twin-linked, the turret mounting, and the 15-25 points it takes to re-purchase a lascannon.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

 

Sounds like everyone's underrating the Hellfire lance weapon. I encounter lots of armor 14 (Landraiders, Lemans Russ) and the lance makes a critical difference by reducing all that to armor 12 and giving me a +2 on the damage roll.

The question is, is a lance weapon worth losing twin-linked, the turret mounting, and the 15-25 points it takes to re-purchase a lascannon.

 

 

 

The answer is yes!

[knife&fork]

 

Sounds like everyone's underrating the Hellfire lance weapon. I encounter lots of armor 14 (Landraiders, Lemans Russ) and the lance makes a critical difference by reducing all that to armor 12 and giving me a +2 on the damage roll.

The question is, is a lance weapon worth losing twin-linked, the turret mounting, and the 15-25 points it takes to re-purchase a lascannon.

 

 

Personally I don't think so. But if you are making it into a dedicated heavy AV hunter I'm not sure I would bother upgrading the missiles unless I have points to spare when the list is complete. 

 

The potms discussion in OR got pretty heated, you may not want to start it here. But keep in mind that POTMS does not specifically mention snap shots...

 

It's a bit confusing. Best compromise I've seen so far is allowing PotMS at full BS for movement penalties but not for 'jink' and damage results. If you never allow it to counter snap shots then the rule doesn't make sense at all and can hardly be used.

[Teetengee]

Exactly.

[Karack Blackstone]

Here's how I see things right now...

 

Stormwolf:

 

- 16 Model Capacity

- Flyer equivalent to a LRC

- One TLLC, option to take two TLMM is great, the TLHelC is great too especially on a turret

- Assault Ramp for up to 14 BC, a WP, and a WGPL is great, especially if in the new Codex WG are an upgrade for the pack, putting me at 15 models in a BC pack

- Great Flyer Armor, 12 is solid, as is Ceramite plating

 

Stormfang

 

- 6 model Capacity

- LF's might be really good with five HB's and a LF Ancient, even if snap firing

- TLLC at a further cost is likely fine

- Unknown whether or not TLMM is even an option on a Stormfang, sadly

- Lance weapons are really good at popping enemy armor; only one might hurt, however at least against S based models, even a Dreadnought still fails on a 6!

- Other weapons to taste

 

Points wise, these flyers are costly.  I'd say have maybe one or two, two being what I might bring considering my Logan GC and the needs I find I am going to have soon.  As far as options, there would seem to be room to maneuver here, same as any real other SW vehicle.

 

I plan on writing up a SW Flyer options thread soon, so these two would really seem to change the nature of the game overall as far as other armies go.

 

Hm, much to think about...

[Rift Blade]

@ Karack--Yes TLMM are an option for the the Storm Fang.

[Karack Blackstone]

@ Karack--Yes TLMM are an option for the the Storm Fang.

 

Thanks for this info, Rift Blade.

 

That does mean things are looking up for our flyers, in my mind.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

@ Stormbrow--No--when you jink ALL shots are snap fire so the POMS fire would still be BS 1 but you still can target something different.

 

@Skullcrusher-I believe even with POMS, you can only fire in Skyfire mode or at Ground targets for both. Can't do one & one.

 

Double check this people please. I believe these were FAQD. I remember some of the boys at the shop discussing this lately so I could be wrong.

 

 

actually your wrong , I've just double checked.

 

the flyer rule for shooting is: as long as the flyer moves combat or cruising speed (18'-36") it can fire up to 4 of its weapons at full BS.

the jinx rule states: the unit gains a 4+ cover save until the start of their next movement phase, but they can only fire snap shots until the end of their next turn.

snap shot state: if a model is forced to make snap shot's it is treated as ballistic skill 1 for the purposes of that shot.

ordnance weapons state: an ordnance weapon can not be fired snap shot.

Power of the machine spirit states: in a turn in which a vehicle neither moves flat out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at it's full ballistic skill than is normally permitted. In addition  this can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules of shooting.

The Universal Rule Always over writes the normal rules.

 

 

What this means is if you jinx you can shoot in your next turn with your twin-linked lascannon, and 2 twin-linked multi-meltas at a tank at BS 1, hitting on 6's, and then fire 1 more weapon at full BS, meaning that it is not a snap shot and meaning that you can choose the ordnance weapon and fire it at a different unit.

[Squark]

The key word that the debate hinges on, though, is what normally permitted means. To me, jinking overrides this, because it isn't saying how many weapons can fire at full BS, its saying that you cannot, under any circumstances, fire at your full BS until the next turn. Sort of the same difference between not having a characteristic (so you auto-pass) and having a characteristic of 0 (which is an auto-fail).

[Nrthstar]

it's all in the white dwarf, 4 bucks for the digital edition

[Nrthstar]

The key word that the debate hinges on, though, is what normally permitted means. To me, jinking overrides this, because it isn't saying how many weapons can fire at full BS, its saying that you cannot, under any circumstances, fire at your full BS until the next turn. Sort of the same difference between not having a characteristic (so you auto-pass) and having a characteristic of 0 (which is an auto-fail).

 

And yes, this is the rule, The Jink rule would override the PotMS unfortunately since you "normally" wouldn't be firing at full BS in this situation.

 

Edit:  and it's "you're wrong" so you're wrong. :P

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

The key word that the debate hinges on, though, is what normally permitted means. To me, jinking overrides this, because it isn't saying how many weapons can fire at full BS, its saying that you cannot, under any circumstances, fire at your full BS until the next turn. Sort of the same difference between not having a characteristic (so you auto-pass) and having a characteristic of 0 (which is an auto-fail).

what are you talking about??

 

if your referring to the last line of POTMS: in a turn in which a vehicle neither moves flat out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at it's full ballistic skill than is normally permitted. In addition this can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules of shooting.

 

you are reading it wrong, there is a full stop meaning it is in reference to the targeting options, so it should be read as:

In addition this can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules of shooting.

the end part has no connection or reference to the previous sentence.

Grammar is important!

 

they way you guys are reading it is:

In a turn in which a vehicle neither moves flat out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at it's full ballistic skill than is normally permitted subject to the normal rules of shooting.. In addition this can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules of shooting.

that is not the way they wrote it.

[Teetengee]

He is referring to the first part the line "normally permitted"

Also, snaps shots can only be modified by rules that specifically mention them. Potms does not. It cannot modify snap shots (and therefore as written basically doesn't work at all). Therefore when and where potms works is either judgment call/gentlemen's agreement between the players/ made by the to, or never, as it is written.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

He is referring to the first part the line "normally permitted"

Also, snaps shots can only be modified by rules that specifically mention them. Potms does not. It cannot modify snap shots (and therefore as written basically doesn't work at all). Therefore when and where potms works is either judgment call/gentlemen's agreement between the players/ made by the to, or never, as it is written.

 

the normally permitted part is also stated clearly:

 

the vehicle can fire one more weapon at it's full ballistic skill than is normally permitted.

 

it would have been clearer maybe if they wrote it:

the vehicle can fire one more weapon than is normally permitted at it's full ballistic skill.

 

​both sentences state the same thing, as neither heave a comma inserted anywhere in the sentence.

 

​jinx doesn't prevent you shooting, it lowers the accuracy of the shots.

so you still get 4 shots (albeit at BS1) so 1 extra shot is a 5th weapon that may fire, this is always at full BS.

 

What jinx does is say because the pilots busy doing evasive manoeuvres his shots are put off. as would passengers manning guns getting tossed about.

What machine spirit is, is a highly advanced auto targeting system that can automatically adapt to crazy piloting, so it's shots are never put off as it is a calculator and even if the variables may change it's calculations remain unchanged. 

[Teetengee]

So a non flyer vehicle with power of the machine spirit can target one weapon at flyers without snap shots too?

 

There are problems with any interpretation of the rule and consistency without just making a judgment call. If that is the call you and your opponents want to make go for it, seems reasonable. But it isn't the only call that is possible.

 

Keep in mind again potms does not ignore the snap shot penalties (without a house rule) because it does not specifically mention snap shots. (Even if it does seem to heavily imply it should.)

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

So a non flyer vehicle with power of the machine spirit can target one weapon at flyers without snap shots too?

 

There are problems with any interpretation of the rule and consistency without just making a judgment call. If that is the call you and your opponents want to make go for it, seems reasonable. But it isn't the only call that is possible.

 

Keep in mind again potms does not ignore the snap shot penalties (without a house rule) because it does not specifically mention snap shots. (Even if it does seem to heavily imply it should.)

 

 

while i get what your saying, the fact is the POTMS does not state it has sky fire, and to shoot at a flyer at full BS a weapon/unit must have the sky fire rule, which is the only universal rule that can over ride that.

as in the flyer section it specifically states all shots MUST be resolved as snap shots UNLESS they have the sky fire rule.

** also the POTMS in this case does have sky fire since it is on a flyer

[Valerian]

There are multiple topics in the Official Rules sub forum on the issue of Flyers, POTMS, and Snap Shots.  Please refer to any of these for those discussions:

 

Power of the Machine Spirit (7e)

 

Flyer with Power of the Machine Spirit (6e)

 

Flyers and Ordnance (6e)

 

--------------------------------------

 

Please take any continued discussion over there to the OR.  Now, let's get back to the purpose of this thread.

 

V

[Teetengee]

Thanks Valerian! Also in a few days I can do an analysis of which gun is better against which targets using my mathhammer. So I'll be back with that.