Stormwolf or Stormfang?

[SonOfThunder]

If you have a Wolves unleashed detachment you already get some nice reserves control...depending on how much reserved stuff you have, it can be better than the comms relay. You do lose objective secured on the troops though, so not too good if you wanted to have lots of rhinos.

[MalachiOfRuss]

A list of quotes when your shooting your "ice lasers" - SW players gotta be classy, after all:

 

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=58189

[marvmoogy]

I read the first two pages of this, but not the rest so sorry if I am repeating someone elses argument.....

 

My go-to jack of all trades flyer is the Fire Raptor.  Armed with Autocannons in the turrets (which don't count towards the vehicles weapon firing limit) it can make a mess of hordes, heavy infantry, light vehicles and flyers.  

 

But, the above depends on the size of games you are playing.  Sure, 220 points for a Raptor is a bargain, but there is no way I'd take one in a 1000 point game.  If it was a 3k game, I'd probably have a Raptor and a couple of Storm wolf/fangs to go with it.

 

These flyers need to be taken for a specific purpose.  I'll probably get one and build it up specifically in mind to be a delivery conduit for a pack of 15 blood claws that has a nice set of sharp teeth itself.  BUT, I know it is expensive for what it does (especially compared to a couple of drop pods).

 

If you're wanting a dedicated anti-air unit, a ADL with Long Fangs with 4x ML and Flakk is probably going to serve you better.  

If you're after a jack of all - the Raptor is the way to go.

If you want something purely to deliver troops, LRs, Rhinos or Drop Pods should get the nod.

 

My 2p

[Squark]

Err, no, trust me. Flakk missiles are overpriced junk that turn what was already a high priority target into a single point of failure for your army.

[knife&fork]

10 points for a single autocannon shot, what's not to love! :P

 

If they had been 5 points on a 10 pt missile launcher, or free with the current price, then maybe. 

[marvmoogy]

Err, no, trust me. Flakk missiles are overpriced junk that turn what was already a high priority target into a single point of failure for your army.

 

How so?  I've had a load of fun with these!  The other benefit is, whilst they can hit flyers, they also still have krak and frag missiles making them a dangerous threat to anything from hordes to heavy armour.  I'm new to wolves, but I tend to take this unit in my Dark Angels army and they are by far my best unit when you consider points cost vs points killed

[skeletoro]

You might have some fun with them, but their points cost is what matters here. And they're hideously overpriced for what they do.

 

I don't think i'd pay more than about 10% extra to upgrade a ML LF to flakk. I mean, a krak missile can take down fliers anyway, and investing points in flakk doesn't do anything when you're not shooting at fliers. So.. i'd pay maybe 3 points for the upgrade. But even at 33 points per model, I think they are overpriced. 40 points is ridiculous.

 

I already compared to a storm wolf's AA potential elsewhere, but another salient comparison is the rapier laser destroyer platform. This lacks skyfire, but is twin-linked, ordnance (reroll pen), s9 AP2. While you could get 5 flakk Long Fangs for 215, you could get 4 RLDs for 220.

 

Using the storm raven as a test case:

 

Flakk missile: 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 glances or pens per missile. On average: 10/9 (90/81)for the whole pack.

RLD: 11/36 * 8/9 = 22/81 glances or pens per shot. On average, 88/81 for the 4 RLD, but a higher proportion are pens, and with AP2 you might get Explodes! Results.

 

The RLD isn't even a dedicated AA platform - AA is not even a particular strength of that unit!! The 4 RLD will vastly outperform 5 krak missiles for virtually any usage scenario. Frag missiles provide a little versatility the RLDs lack, true, but 40 point frag missiles aren't a particularly good deal. The 4 RLDs come with 8 marines and 4 T7 W2 3+ weapon platforms, so are vastly more durable than the Long Fangs, to boot.

 

Flakk might arguably be worth 10 points if they were s9 AP2. They would probably be worth it if they came bundled with a targetted that made ALL shots (krak, too) twin-linked. The cost increase of 1/3 would boost krak damage output by 1/3 - you'd get flakk missiles but pay for them with lower wounds per point spent, and potential overkill issues when shooting 5 TL krak missiles at some targets.

[marvmoogy]

You might have some fun with them, but their points cost is what matters here. And they're hideously overpriced for what they do.

 

I don't think i'd pay more than about 10% extra to upgrade a ML LF to flakk. I mean, a krak missile can take down fliers anyway, and investing points in flakk doesn't do anything when you're not shooting at fliers. So.. i'd pay maybe 3 points for the upgrade. But even at 33 points per model, I think they are overpriced. 40 points is ridiculous.

 

I already compared to a storm wolf's AA potential elsewhere, but another salient comparison is the rapier laser destroyer platform. This lacks skyfire, but is twin-linked, ordnance (reroll pen), s9 AP2. While you could get 5 flakk Long Fangs for 215, you could get 4 RLDs for 220.

 

Using the storm raven as a test case:

 

Flakk missile: 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 glances or pens per missile. On average: 10/9 (90/81)for the whole pack.

RLD: 11/36 * 8/9 = 22/81 glances or pens per shot. On average, 88/81 for the 4 RLD, BUT

 

They'd arguably be worth 10 points if they were s9 AP2. They would definitely be worth it if they came bundled with a targetted that made ALL shots (krak, too) twin-linked.

 

This is all well and good....but how much damamge can they do to a Predator?  Or a horde of termagants?

 

My point is, you can't compare like for like as the Long Wolves have an ADDITIONAL benefit of being able to take on air.  Personally, I'd probably end up taking a unit of them anyway.  As such, the anti-air option is simply the cost of flakk, not the unit itself as they'd be coming along anyway.

[Squark]

 

Err, no, trust me. Flakk missiles are overpriced junk that turn what was already a high priority target into a single point of failure for your army.

 

How so?  I've had a load of fun with these!  The other benefit is, whilst they can hit flyers, they also still have krak and frag missiles making them a dangerous threat to anything from hordes to heavy armour.  I'm new to wolves, but I tend to take this unit in my Dark Angels army and they are by far my best unit when you consider points cost vs points killed

 

Factor in a few things;

 

 

1) Long Fangs a priority target almost all the time. Most lists run vehicles or monstrous creatures, to whom the missiles are the number one or number two threat. Foot marines and hordes also fear them; Marines are forced to cling to cover and still lose durability when facing krak missiles, while frag missiles can make a mess of hordes. As a result, long fangs get shot up quickly. Now, if your opponent knows that a flier will make a mess of your army if its unopposed, you've just turned the long fangs into a single point of failure.

 

2) Most things flakk missiles can hit, like Heldrakes, Night Scythes, and Flyrants, are quite capable of killing most of the unit the turn they arive, and unlike Hydras, Stalkers, and Fliers, you can't hide in reserves and come on after the flier because you'd be snap shotting.

 

3) Cost. Upgrading two packs of long fangs* to carry missiles costs as much or more than a hydra or a stalker, and they output comparable anti-flier power. So, instead of buying flakk missiles, you could buy an anti-flier tank and still have the regular long fangs, who can even snap fire at the damn flier if you need a little extra fire power. Also, said tank's shots are twin-linked, so that's even better.

 

*Remember what I said earlier about single points of failure? Applies to Long Fangs in general. If you take one pack, take two, because that way enough of them will survive to do something.

 

2 Flakk missiles in a unit of devastators/long fangs to support a flier isn't bad*, because you've got redundancy. But a full unit of flakk missiles is just asking for your opponent to kick the chair out from under you.

 

*Granted, you're playing Dark Angels, who are in the slightly awkward position of having one of the most forgettable fliers in the game. A pity, really, because it's the only space marine flier that looks like it could actually, you know, fly.

 

 

 

This is all well and good....but how much damamge can they do to a Predator?  Or a horde of termagants?

 

My point is, you can't compare like for like as the Long Wolves have an ADDITIONAL benefit of being able to take on air.  Personally, I'd probably end up taking a unit of them anyway.  As such, the anti-air option is simply the cost of flakk, not the unit itself as they'd be coming along anyway.

Those Laser destroyers would probably pop the predator in one turn, being twin-linked SP 9 AP 2 ordnance weapons :) And, Like I said, the price of a full unit's worth of flakk missiles is close to an anti-air vehicle anyway.

[skeletoro]

yeah, the only potential advantage the long fangs would have in terms of damage output would be vs. Hordes or perhaps vs. AV10 fliers. But it's not like they do well vs hordes, at that cost (you're still paying for the flakk when you're firing krak or frag so they're worse - for the points - than unupgraded MLs when firing other missiles).

 

Incidentally, the default Rapier weapons platform has a quad heavy bolter and costs 40 points. So, 5 small blasts or 30 twin linked shots? Could go either way (I guess) if the target is sufficiently bunched up horde, except the quad heavy bolters are also better strength and AP. Funnily enough, the platforms would even kill MEQ about twice as well as 40pt krak missiles (2/3*5/6=5/9 per krak missile, vs 6*8/9*2/3*1/3= 96/81) For the points, I'd rather take, for instance, 2*3 RLD platforms and 1*3 quad heavy bolter platforms to the ~2 Long Fang packs with flakk.

 

And AV10 fliers seem like a bit of a corner case to me - I would want any dedicated anti air I have to perform well against AV12, otherwise what's the point in taking it?

 

Also

[marvmoogy]

I guess this sums up the wonderful thing about out hobby.  Different people prefer to do things in different ways!

 

That, and.....I could take my fangs 1 game and obliterate anything and another game they could get wiped table one.  Same with your RLDs.......they could do what you say they can 1 game and be nothing more than a resin block another.

 

All adds to the interest I guess

[knife&fork]

And AV10 fliers seem like a bit of a corner case to me - I would want any dedicated anti air I have to perform well against AV12, otherwise what's the point in taking it?

 

 

At least you can shoot those with literally anything that can snapshot. A unit with nothing better to do could always shoot some bolters (and don't forget your krak grenades) at a scythe and hope to take off that last HP.

[skeletoro]

An overly expensive resin block, too. That's the reason I have a bunch of long fangs with MLs and no rapier weapons platforms in my 'collection'