Prot's DA vs Astra Batrep: 1850 Belial Footbound

[Prot]

Hey guys,

I'll try to be brief on this one. This list is inspired by Lucifer's attempt at getting back to a footslogging DA list and it was something I haven't tried in a long time.

So my list was something like:

Belial

Libby in Termie Armour w/Lion's Roar (great piece o' Wargear thanks Lucifer)

5 DWT, Hammer/Shield, Cyclone

5 DWT, Hammer/Shield, Cyclone

5 DWT, Hammer/Shield, Assault Cannon

5 DWK

5 Tactical Marines, 1 Plasma Gun

3 RWB, 2 x melta

1 MM Attack Bike

1 Typhoon Speeder

5 x Black Knights 1 grenade launcher

The Asrta List was something like:

1 HQ dude dishing out orders in a comand Chimera with:

Master of something (increase reserves)

6 or so vets, 3 plasma guns

1 chimera - vets with plasma

Scions... I can't remember what these guys are called. They had an HQ and one Troop unit. Both Deep striked. They had 'volley guns' and were armed pretty good.

2 Vendetta Gunships

2 Wyvern tanks (sorry can't remember the name I think he proxied these things.)

1 Commander Pask in a Funisher (what a shock)

1 Tank, forgot the name, has the low AP, St 10 big pie plate

1 Manticore

The Game:

We play Maelstrom, and it's the one where we start with, and maintain 3 Objective Cards per turn. I win the roll to deploy first and go first.....

As most cowardly heretics are prone to do, he deployed DEEP on his long edge. Very deep. He kept the Scions and Vendettas in reserve.

I looked at the situation and I felt very little chance of dislodging his tank squadron of Pask Funisher, and AP2 Tank... wihtout taking massive casualties. I could not get rear shots so Belial assessed the risk / reward factor and went after the soft, chewy HQ center.

I announced turn 1 deep strike.... Deployment was sparse for me:

My Deployment is sparse, and his army is so deep, it's not in this picture.

Pre-game Turbo + Reserves = lots of advancing Black Knights and Termies.

Deep in my zone I decided to play conservative with the Tacticals. They are just within 3" of an objective marker which is barely visible in front of this tower. These would be my only 'stay at home' squad which I like to have at least one of in each game.

Turn one starts with a bang. Using Belial's precision strike, I drop right beside his command chimera. This is huge, but it requires everything I've got to crack a Chimera, and his HQ get out.

The Librarian casts Telekinesis: Crush but the heretics cancel it! Never the less, the LIbby releases the Lion's Roar and gets the final hull point on the second Chimera right beside the command chimera. That's First blood, and it is the only point I get.

In the Astra First Turn: I see tons of firepower. He doesn't like the Black Knights, which have helped take down the command chimera with Plasma Talons. He lays into them hard. One dies, and the other Ravenwing Bikes are dying out slowly.

The Manticore deviates badly... I'll take it. The Pask/Tank Squadron doesn't have a shot due to my exceptionally clever deployment of overloading one side. However, my cleverness has me unable to take anything on that side of the table!

His turn ends killing a few termies, and mostly bikes, including the Attack Bike which is seen as a huge threat (man I lose this thing SO fast, every game!)

Mid Game:

I am starting to pull ahead a few points, but his reserves come in and my luxury of not having to face his Pask Tank Squadron and Vendetta's is over.

The Black Knights peel out of the line of the Pask Punisher, and make a beeline for the 2 Wyvern tanks. One blows up from shooting, the other is hacked to death by a Corvus Hammer.

Get out your Corvus... it's Hammer Time.

The Astra have their HQ, and I have my Belial squad facing him deep in the back row. Belial's squad faces a ton of shooting, but surprisingly I only lose 2 Termies and a wound off of Belial (keep in mind he had two vet squads ejected from their Chimera's). His rolling was horrid, but that's what you get when you flirt with Heretics.

The Scions come in deep, and wipe 2 of the 3 biker squad, leaving only the Sarge. The other Scion squad deep strikes close to an objective and steals a point, but I steal 2 of his 'Get Objective X' cards.

By now Belial is widdled down, however the Deathwatch Knights which were in front of the command chimeras, are now marching through his back lines with Belial's squad.

Belial used his precision shots to kill off the dude who increased reserve rolls, then challenged him in close combat for another victory point. Slay the warlord. +1

Late Game:

Belial and squad is in deep against the hiding commander.

With both Chimera's, and their squads dead, the Knights and Belial's squad start to march around the rock formations to flank Pask's Squadron.

Pask is picking off guys and there's not much I can do. My sole Ravenwing Bike actually wins a close combat round with the Troop Scion squad, and they break and get run down! What a shock... but I'll take it.

The Lion's Roar on the Libby is used to pop the side of the Manticore as the two Terminator squads are trying to flank Pask.

The last HQ Scion squad with Volley guns is sitting on an objective. I actually pull 2 cards that both give points for the Objective that the Scions are sitting on !!! (My opponent can steal them.) So the Tacticals shoot up the squad, but me being an idiot... I forget to move the Speeder on the objective, and Pask steals both points!!!

The Speeder has been jinking heavy lascannon fire all game... and is down to his last point, but turns on one of the Valks and manages to remove a hullpoint.

Most of my Deathwing Termies are dead at this point, but he has no troops, and he's lost 3 squads of Vets, 3 chimera's, the wyvern tanks, the manticore, and the two Scion Squads.

I'm down to 4 Deathwing Knights, 2 Black Knights, 1 Ravenwing Bike, and Belial's remnant squad, as well as all the Tacticals.

He decided to call it as I was up 13 points to 3.

Conclusion:

Pask's Squadron did put some hurt on my army but as you can see here, I think I made the right choice avoiding them, and cutting off my army from their LOS until end game. Here you see the cowardly tanks are backed up against a short edge of the table, doing what they do best: Hiding.

+++ In my opponent's defense, he has been trying a heavy vet list and has not had any success with it. He's a very good Astra player but is trying out this list without much success and he mentioned he will probably abandon it after our game. Also he rolled terrible overall.

+++ Lion's Roar... is the cat's meow. (pun intended)

+++ Belial's precision strike with split fire and twinlinking is gold against a turtling army. I wasn't too impressed with Telekinesis, but it wasn't horrible either at least allowing me to get a few decent Warp Charge one powers off. (I failed a Beam attempt when his command squad and Vet squad were perfectly lined up!... On 5 dice!!!)

+++ I really think Belial's squad which for me always ends up in deep heat, might be best off with a command squad to get Feel no Pain, and a cheep champion, OR even a Fortitude banner? It would be really interesting to test because the squad takes so much heat!

+++ Surprisingly, I think the Deathwing Knights are great anti vehicle. Plus they have some resiliency getting there... they must have shrugged off about 6 lascannon hits? Careful placement of the Master is key.

+++ My list felt VERY small once he had his reserves in, and as you can see I didn't have a lot of terrain to hide in. The Black Knights are a staple unit of mine, but I have to wonder what else I could do in that spot, but I LOVE the unit as a whole, just not sure it's the best use of that many points in a small list.

It was a super fun list overall. I think I got pretty lucky though, and I'm still considering getting rid of SoS for a Hammer/Shield.

I felt shaky with the list, but enjoyed playing it immensely. I don't think I could have beat his best list, but I'm definitely learning this Belial army so it was good to get in a 'fun' game.

Thanks for reading!

[IanSturrock]

Nicely done! And, nice batrep!

 

I wonder if it would be worth combining two of the DW squads into one ten-man squad. You can always combat squad it, after all, but it gives you the option of DSing all ten with Belial, if you so choose. You probably wouldn't do it very often (very vulnerable to blast weapons and templates!) but the flexibility is nice, as is the sheer amount of twin-linked, split fire firepower you could bring.

[Gillyfish]

Nice report Prot!

 

I actually thought it might be a tougher game given the ordinance he deployed. Might be interesting to hear how you fare against a less experimental Guard list. As alternatives to Black Knights go, would you follow Lucifers lead and pick up some more normal RW bikes? If you can find the points, that would give you access to another attack bike, which could potentially play tag team with the first one. Just think of the fire those would draw! ;)

 

Another option might be a land speeder tempest instead of the typhoon as it can now deal with air and ground targets if you wish and might add a little more versatility to your list as well as another target priority for your opponent.

 

Ian Sturrock - I didn't think they had the combat squads rule?

[Polythemus]

@Prot - Nicely done on the batrep, seems you've got a nice streak going. what powers did you roll for telekensis? i guess it gives you some anti vehicle stuff, but i always feel that its the weakest of the psy disciplines.

 

@gilly - Do you mean the forgeworld model that can sometimes act as a flyer? How has it changed?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Good to see the batrep and you didn't disapoint.. You get a well fought victory.

 

About Belial squad, I have that same issue, I think he deserves to get  a feel no pain in there to get some more resilience. My problem is the points, but since you have a differnet set-up from mine you can probably scrounge them easier.

 

@Ian Sturrock: DW doesn't combat squad, unfortunately...

[Gillyfish]

Polythemus - yes, it is the FW Landspeeder and it now come swith flakk, krak and frag as standard, so it could provide some comparatively cheap and mobile anti-air. Plus they can be deployed in squadrons of three models now. Worth looking at again I suspect.

[Master Avoghai]

I wasn't too impressed with Telekinesis, but it wasn't horrible either at least allowing me to get a few decent Warp Charge one powers off. (I failed a Beam attempt when his command squad and Vet squad were perfectly lined up!... On 5 dice!!!)

I wasnt impressed by the librarians during my last games. Concerning their statline they are just a vet sgt with 2W. I tend to think that a they are good as second HQ. if you don't have he points for it, but have a solid main HQ, you can deal with that. Spells are ok but not essential. Psychic protection : well if you play against elder or tzeentch daemons, you'll never have enough die to counter them anyway.

 

My list felt VERY small once he had his reserves in, and as you can see I didn't have a lot of terrain to hide in. The Black Knights are a staple unit of mine, but I have to wonder what else I could do in that spot, but I LOVE the unit as a whole, just not sure it's the best use of that many points in a small list.

I actually love them too. I find them as a multi tool Swiss knife. I can give them whatever mission, they'll fulfill it nicely. Sure it's costly and you'll may see load of firepower on them but it's proportional to the fear factor they inspire to your opponent. Sometimes the simple fact that your opponent made a fixation on them allows the rest of your army to advance. So yes, sometimes you may lose them without having been able to charge or destroy something but the simple fact they attract enemy's attention is worth it's cost.

[Prot]

@Prot - Nicely done on the batrep, seems you've got a nice streak going. what powers did you roll for telekensis? i guess it gives you some anti vehicle stuff, but i always feel that its the weakest of the psy disciplines.

 

 

I rolled Telekinesis and got: Assail (Primaris) + Crush + Dome.  I was uninspired with the rolls, however during the game I did notice something: Crush actually helped me get two vehicle kills. (One pen + one glance on two chimera's).

 

At least the Primaris is good against Hordes which I have a problem with in my smaller lists. However Dome was a total waste, and I still felt Telepathy might have served me better.

 

That being said.... after all of these games with one lowly psyker I think it is quite possible that the standard we should consider for psychic powers is; What is your favorite 1 Warp Charge powers? It is so hard to get anything off with a WC2 psyker, that this is now my mentality with Dark Angels (Chaos you can go nuts)

 

 

 

Good to see the batrep and you didn't disapoint.. You get a well fought victory.

 

About Belial squad, I have that same issue, I think he deserves to get  a feel no pain in there to get some more resilience. My problem is the points, but since you have a differnet set-up from mine you can probably scrounge them easier.

 

@Ian Sturrock: DW doesn't combat squad, unfortunately...

 

Yea maybe I can crowbar it in somehow, but I believe the Black Knights would have to go. (Their points might directly translate into a Command squad with Fortitude and/or Apoth.)

 

As we both have said, Belial's special skill lets him strike into the bowels of hell and this REALLY reminds me of how aggressive I play my Az-Zeke bomb list and I can't tell you how valuable that FNP is in that squad.

 

 

 

 

Polythemus - yes, it is the FW Landspeeder and it now come swith flakk, krak and frag as standard, so it could provide some comparatively cheap and mobile anti-air. Plus they can be deployed in squadrons of three models now. Worth looking at again I suspect.

 

Ah okay, I haven't seen that one. Are the points/details listed on the FW site?  Cheap for me would have to be under 100 pts for an AV 10 vehicle.

 

 

 

 

I wasn't too impressed with Telekinesis, but it wasn't horrible either at least allowing me to get a few decent Warp Charge one powers off. (I failed a Beam attempt when his command squad and Vet squad were perfectly lined up!... On 5 dice!!!)

I wasnt impressed by the librarians during my last games. Concerning their statline they are just a vet sgt with 2W. I tend to think that a they are good as second HQ. if you don't have he points for it, but have a solid main HQ, you can deal with that. Spells are ok but not essential. Psychic protection : well if you play against elder or tzeentch daemons, you'll never have enough die to counter them anyway.

 

 

 

 

Here's the funny thing about the librarian: The Lion's Roar was pure awesomeness. It probably made the biggest boost to the Librarian. In many games I feel like the 2 WC Libbys are just dead weight... psychic wise I look at them purely for defense, and anything you get off is luck (this game my opponent had no psyker and I still only passed 2 powers. 1 I failed with 5 dice, the other he canceled with 2 x 6 dice rolls)

 

With the Lion's Roar he actually had real offensive potential in a small squad. I don't think I'll model this wargear item and hopefully it suffices to simply tell my opponent he has it.

 

My list felt VERY small once he had his reserves in, and as you can see I didn't have a lot of terrain to hide in. The Black Knights are a staple unit of mine, but I have to wonder what else I could do in that spot, but I LOVE the unit as a whole, just not sure it's the best use of that many points in a small list.

I actually love them too. I find them as a multi tool Swiss knife. I can give them whatever mission, they'll fulfill it nicely. Sure it's costly and you'll may see load of firepower on them but it's proportional to the fear factor they inspire to your opponent. Sometimes the simple fact that your opponent made a fixation on them allows the rest of your army to advance. So yes, sometimes you may lose them without having been able to charge or destroy something but the simple fact they attract enemy's attention is worth it's cost.

 

 

 

Here's the funny thing: When I make a Deathwing Based list I find I benefit more from the Black Knights, then when I make a Ravenwing list, and put a squad of Deathwing in it.

 

In this game they helped destroy 1 chimera, they completely destroyed another, and took out the embarked Vets, then destroyed 2 x Wyverrn tanks.

 

I've played a ton of games with them, the odd time I pull them out, I feel it tactically. To replace them with something cheaper is easy, but to replace them with something more effective is really difficult. That being said, there are many games (as you note) they get focused hard in the first turn and disappear.

 

I didn't play an aggressive army... like Nids or Orks and wonder how much this list could take of something like that. The composition feels good, just a touch small. One of two things I'd like to change: increase numbers or increase survivability of what is there.

[Gillyfish]

Ah okay, I haven't seen that one. Are the points/details listed on the FW site?  Cheap for me would have to be under 100 pts for an AV 10 vehicle.

 

 

It's AV11 ;) The rules are in the latest version of Imperial Armour volume 2. I think it comes in at a little over 100 pints, but for that you get AV11, an assault cannon and a missile launcher with frag, krak and frag. Randomly, the Landspeeder can also act like a flier at some points if you choose that mode.

 

Still squishy, but slightly less so than a standard speeder. I'll have a look at the rules tonight.

[FerociousBeast]

Out of curiosity, what's so great about the Lion's Roar? As a combi-weapon, sure it gets one turn of goodness (hopefully it hits), but after that it's just a master-crafted bolter.

[Prot]

Actually it isn't one turn of goodness, I think that's why it's the cats meow!

[Polythemus]

Ah Prot, hate to break this to you man but the very fact that its a combi weapon makes the secondary component one use only. Now technically they forgot to stipulate this in the FAQ by saying Lion's Roar is single use only weapon, but they did do it for azreal's weapon lion's wrath. Still It would seem that combi-weapon as defined by the basic rule book, would suggest it is a single use item.

 

On second glance, RAW would suggest that GW have to update the FAQ to say "one use only," for our relic, because by their own rules they have made this a special rule that must be in place for a combi weapon to become single use. So I think its really shady, but Prot is right. At the time of this writing the Lion's Roar, can fire its plasma cannon all game long.

 

Edit: Just got an update to my digital codex which turned large swathes of text blue. That update has, amongst other things, notation for the one use only rule, under the lions roar. Back to the drawing board Prot, curse of the digital codex strikes again!

[FerociousBeast]

The codex says the Lion's Roar is a combi-weapon. Then in the ranged weapons section, the codex says refer to the main rulebook for the rules for combi-weapons. It's bolter + one-shot secondary weapon.

 

Seriously, guys.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Actualythe rulebook doesnt say that the secondary is one shot. We are dependant on the profile of the secondary to state one shot. In this case both the lions roar and Azrael combi weapon lacked one shot only on tje profile making them multiple shots. There are way worse things out there than multishot comboweapons... plus fluff wise we are supposed to have ancient tech.. who is to say that we dont have better combis?

[Prot]

BTW: Lucifer I held my end of the deal... where's your batrep?!?!

 

I am contemplating another game at this list (not sure what if anything could change - I can't seem to fit in the Termie Command squad w/Fortitude Banner!)

 

-or-

 

Ravenwing.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Tomorrow I will end DA vs Chaos trilogy. My friend is thrilled to test some new things (and tips from Prot).