Fluff Questions

[Frater Cornelius]

Aight, here's little bit of material for the daemonic fluff master generals amongst you ;)

I want to explore the possibilities given by the Warp to ultimately shape and create my own Warp affiliated army. I said 'Warp affiliated', not necessarily 'Chaos affiliated'. With that in mind, lets get going:

 

1. Is it possible to actually enslave and control daemonic entities? I know one can imprison or bind daemons, but is actual, even if only temporary control possible? I suppose controlling a being connected to a Chaos god would be close to impossible, but what about being not connected to them like undivided beings?

 

2. Given that the above is not possible or if a person does not manage to subjugate them, what does actually happen when someone summons daemons? Do they just do banana peanut sandwich or how does that work anyway?

 

3. Given the appropriate tools, would it be possible to create/manufacture daemonic beings? Imagine some machine that binds souls together to create something bigger or draws energies from the Warp and binds appropriate emotions and energies to create something.

 

3.1 Could a psyker do it? I remember reading that there practically nothing an Alpha Plus psyker couldn't achieve through sheer            force of will.

 

3.2 If that would be possible, what would that mean for the created being. Is it independent? Could it be 'forged' to answer to a certain psyker?

 

4. Taking a step further. Would it be possible to become a Daemon for any race/material being without interference of major Warp entities? Like a human infusing himself with certain energies to achieve apotheosis himself. Or something in that direction.

 

5. Would the other way around be also plausible? I mean the Forge of Souls and Warpsmiths prove that daemons can be fused/bound with machines that allows existence in the Warp and the material realm. Would that sort of combination work with people? There is daemonic possession, anything else?

 

6. Is the Warp localized to mirror a particular area of the material realm or is it omnipresent? For example, is a Chaos God aware of whats happening in the other corner of the universe, couple squintillion light years away? Or is he 'limited' to the human/eldar presence in the milky way? Taking it a step further, is it plausible to assume that ships that get lost in the warp but survive that ordeal might end up else where far outside the milky way?

 

7. Taking everything and all from above and combining it into the ultimate question: Could there be a group of people that use the Warp to fight the Warp? Yes, there are Grey Knights and radical Inquisitors, but I am talking even more extreme. People becoming Daemons, controlling and enslaving certain ones, creating new ones and hone their mastery of the Warp, trying to achieve the ultimate mastery over Daemonology. It would take Monumental amount of willpower to resist corruption and possession, but nothing beyond 40k I suppose.

 

I suppose the ultimate answer to every question is that everything is possible in the Warp. I mean it existed fabajillion years in it's messed up state and the calm version of the Warp existed since the dawn of time. Even the oldest Chaos God isn't that old. Besides, most things that we know, we know from someones perspective, usually Imperial Scholars. I highly doubt that any being in the material realm can claim to know even half of all the things about the Warp.

Still, of anyone has concrete proof or even theories that any of the above is possible, please let me know ;)

[Tenebris]

1. Control is possible and there is no need for binding (this is perhaps the most mundane of methods) for there are many, many other options. A being can control a daemon trough sheer willpower, due to a contract, due to the rules of summoning, due to knowledge of a True Name, due to enacting certain rituals... in short consider how control could be achieved of a single person and add some metaphysical concepts and you get your answer how a daemon can be controlled.

 

2. Depends on the daemon and only the poor case writers portray them as hulk smash beings. A daemon is a hyper intelligent being so it can subjugate the mortal, use the souls of the summoner as a medium, present a contract to the conjurer, in short abuse of the summoner in many unsavoury ways, but bloodshed is not very useful, for the daemons wish to establish an anchor in the real world so that they can act as they please, thus doing the unholy work of their patron deities. All this usually leads the daemon to accommodate the wishes of their summoner (even of one who did not summon them properly, which actually means that the daemon is free of the influence of the caster and plays his game). 

 

3. It is possible to create warp entities. In Daemonifuge, a Sororitas comic several sisters were used to create a warp being, a coalescence of sentience and will which became a single being. It is possible to mould the soul matter into forms and beings but I presume this is the province of the really powerful daemonologists. The "soul essence" as well as the "emotions" are very malleable in the 40k lore so creating beings from them (or effects like the Ruinstorm) is perfectly viable. 

 

3.1. A psyker, or in this case most probably a sorcerer can do it and do it effectively. Consider the warp as a big sandbox thing, one can use its many concepts, wishes and acts to shape the Warp into a form and thus shape reality. Ahriman moved planets with his will, the Daemon Primarchs created constructs and worlds by their wish alone and so on. Most probably every our daemon prince has a little planar realm or a daemon world created by his will alone (and most probably sustained by it). As for mundane creations like tools and weapons, all is perfectly malleable by the mutagenic power of Chaos.

 

3.2. Most warp beings are emotions given sentience, even daemon worlds have a will on their own, daemon weapons too, daemon engines also. My daemon prince might create a sentient fortress or a daemonic ship by his own will, which would mean that it would be most likely an extension of his persona. But I think that such ancient wonders of chaos like daemon worlds, beings and creations obtained a sentience and a will of their own in all the eons passed since their creation. 

 

4. The Warp is malleable, the very reality is malleable. A Dark Apostle ascended by his will alone (though he sacrificed himself to become a nexus of chaos energy on Calth), I also presume that Kyras did something similar (though he had Khorne as a patron). I think Abbadon had the daemonhood offered countless times but he refuses, which actually makes him a veritable mortal nexus for Chaos... so yes it is possible to ascend on ones own terms.

 

5. The Possessed are symbiotes of the material realm and the warp. Daemon engines are a case, even a daemonic weapon is a form of a daemon in real space. I think that a daemon or warp sentience desperate enough to wreck havoc in the real world would do anything for that brief moment of elation and destruction. Consider that daemons can possess things and hosts at will, all they need is a sort of weakness, a dent that they can exploit. For example entire manofactorums were corrupted by the warp sentience. Daemons also come in the form of viruses, plagues, mechanical code... all is subject to their will, provided that there is a weakness to exploit or a nexus of emotions to sustain them. 

 

6. The Warp has no boundaries and the reflection often described in the books is a reflection or an interpretation of the mortal mind of something by its very nature unfathomable. Each individual will perceive the Warp in a different way but consider the daemons omniscient. In an audiodrama (Thief of Revelations) Magnus and Ahriman sailed across the entire galaxy as beings of will, in seconds they have visited Calth, Istvaan... so a mere thought is all that is needed to be aware of something on the other side of the galaxy, especially if there is a strong echo of emotions emanating from the point of interest. It is perfectly viable for a ship lost in the Warp to appear in another galaxy, in another timeline or even in another dimension... all that is needed is a mere spark of idea of a greater daemonic entity or a strong nexus of thought and emotion to change the rules of the game in the Warp.

 

 

7. The Emperor, he fights the Warp with the Warp. The Space Marines are a combination of warp magic, genetics and technology, the Webway is a planar dimension between the Warp and the Reality, the beings like Saints, Immortals... all are the products of the Warp. The Warp itself is by its very concept a neutral thing, it is not good nor evil, but like thoughts it can be harmless or beneficial, noble or cursed. The Radical Inquisitors try to fight Chaos with Chaos, Chapters like the Exorcists even submit their recruits to a form of possession to harden them to the Warp, Harlequin Solitairs also become a sort of symbiotes with Slaanesh (they bear the curse of She Who Thirsts in order to keep the souls of their Troupe safe) and the acts of faith of the Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy are nothing more than benign manifestations of the Warp. Will has little to do here, faith, duty and scope are usually better channellers of the Warp than discipline or focus. An example is the Plague of Unbelief which curses the people to become living dead, but it has been neutralized or countered by a metaphysical application of a physical object like holy water (Chiapas Cain -  Old Soldiers Never Die - novella) so the reverse can also be used, hence a Chaotic power to counter a Chaotic manifestation and so on,...

 

 

In the end the Warp is malleable by its very definition. The "rules" to use it are mostly based upon ritual, concept and contract rather than physical manipulation or practical channelling. You ask, if your request favours some daemonic entity there is a risk that you will be answered... and that is how worlds fall and civilizations die... and Chaos wins. 

[Ulfast]

@ Tenebris: good answer. :) 

[incinerator950]

Did someone just use the warp is a neutral medium?

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, good answers indeed.

One thing I did not manage to get out of the answer though, and that answer 6. Yes within the 40k setting the Warp is omnipresent, but I am talking way outside. Another galaxy. That part where the Tyranids come from for example. Or even beyond that. To put it in relative terms, the universe is fairly big and I doubt that that little bit of space where 40k takes place is the limit of existence (as the 'nids prove).

The question is whether Warp entities are aware of that other galaxy far far away (pun intended) where they may have their own Empires and their own Warp entities/gods. Other than that, superb.

 

My plan was it to make a daemon force to be a sorta independent faction. Not aligned with any good but rather the product of a cult that specializes in daemonology. I am still working on how it comes to it but essentially they operate way beyond the limit of acceptance even by the standards of radical Inquisitors on board of a old AdMech forge ship that got possessed by daemonic entities to forge their force. Churning out Daemon Engines, having a host of daemons under their control, subjugating daemons they did not create for information and other uses, daemons weapons and some going even so far as to allowing themselves to be reforged by their own forge to widen their scope of influence (those for example are my heralds), infusing themselves with some daemonic stuff and in some rare cases achieving apotheosis (represented on the Table Top by my Daemons army).

Obviously taking a lot of inspiration from your classical fantasy Warlock and translating that into 40k terms. Given the above info, this little undertaking should actually be fairly plausible. Now I need to flesh out the story of how this cult came to be and why exactly they toss Daemons at Xenos and Chaos (and sometimes the Imperium) as opposed your old fashioned dakka.